"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on September 2, 2013 at 2:42pm

David,

Again, the understanding of God's foreknowledge and His sovereign will to give man liberties without relinquishing His sovereignty answers each of these verse for me, especially in light of 1 Peter 1:2:

 

"... who have been chosen according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through the sanctifying work of the Spirit, for obedience to Jesus Christ."

 

So for me, it is still about the foreknowledge of God, the Power of the gospel and the liberties that God has given to man without relinquishing His sovereignty.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

 

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 29, 2013 at 7:40am

LT,

 

>>I was in the middle of writings a detailed response point by point, but stopped. It will only become a tic-for-tac. You and I have been down this road before and are no closer to agreeing on this issue than before. Thus, I will point out the differences and leave it at that for now.

I agree with you whole-heartedly. I think it will turn into a never ending discussion. I will respond to your posts and to any body else's questions as time permits, but I am not particularly crazy about discussing this in eternal detail. :) We have 99% in common in our theology and this 1% will never divide us.

 

We both believe that God saves us. How that saving occurs, is where we have our differences, but we are blessed to be in the family regardless of how it happened. :)

 

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 29, 2013 at 9:09am

David,

 

Amen!!!

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Colby on September 1, 2013 at 7:42pm

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty;  in all things, charity.

David and LT,

        I just want you both to know that I really appreciate the loving way in which you have both conducted yourselves in this engaging discussion about the timing/order of  salvation on which you both differ based on how you read and interpret Scripture.
        This is a secondary issue that Christians need not divide over. We would do well to follow the counsel of the Apostle Paul in Philippians 2 and Romans 14 whenever we have different points of view with our brothers and sisters in Christ.  
        What is critically important here is the bottom line.  Both of you agree on the essentials of the Christian faith, which are clearly set forth in Scripture; including, in particular, the clear teaching that salvation is by grace through faith in Jesus Christ.  Thank you again, and may God bless you both.

Colby

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 2, 2013 at 8:31am

Colby,

 

Thanks for your encouraging words. We are blessed to have you among us.

 

Family,

 

AAG has defined purposes/goals for it's existence. Primarily to bring God glory by caring for the young in Christ, as well as for those in whom God is working to bring to salvation. Hence this type of discussion which causes confusion in the minds of many is avoided. Not because we can't discuss it in love, but because it creates too many questions, generating confusion rather than edification.

 

Feel free to go on asking and sharing about the topic, but let us do all we can to avoid confusion and rather let us love one another by edifying each other in the many other ways we can accomplish that edification. If we have to pull back from such discussions, so be it, is not a big deal. We seek to honor God.

 

The Leadership team in this site is in agreement with:

 

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty;  in all things, charity.

 

LT is my co-worker in the Faith and we seek to love you and bring Glory to God alone. :)

 

Permalink Reply by Seek on September 2, 2013 at 12:02pm

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty;  in all things, charity.

I love this!  Some link on FB, people were arguing about post or pre-rapture tribulation, getting downright nasty with one another.  I wonder how we have unity when people argue over such trivial matters.  And some would argue as to whether it is even trivial.  But if you are saved, the Holy Spirit will teach you and guide you, not an argument with people.  ;-)

Permalink Reply by Todd Robert Princl on August 27, 2013 at 7:21am

Whatever God does, must be just. Wherein the holy, happy people of God differ from others, God's grace alone makes them differ. None have deserved it; so that those who are saved, must thank God only; and those who perish, must blame themselves only,  And this is, that he will receive, and not cast out, those that come to Christ; but the drawing of souls in order to that coming. Why does he yet find fault? This is not an objection to be made by the creature against his Creator, by man against God. The truth, as it is in Jesus, abases man as nothing, as less than nothing, and advances God as sovereign Lord of all. Who art thou that art so foolish, so feeble, so unable to judge the Divine counsels? It becomes us to submit to him, not to reply against him. Sanctification is the preparation of the soul for glory. This is God's work. Sinners fit themselves for hell, but it is God who prepares saints for heaven; and all whom God designs for heaven hereafter, he fits for heaven now. Would we know who these vessels of mercy are? Those whom God has called; and these not of the Jews only, but of the Gentiles. Surely there can be no unrighteousness in any of these Divine dispensations. Nor in God's exercising long-suffering, patience, and forbearance towards sinners under increasing guilt, before he brings utter destruction upon them. The fault is in the hardened sinner himself. As to all who love and fear God, however such truths appear beyond their reason to fathom, yet they should keep silence before him. It is the Lord alone who made us to differ; we should adore his pardoning mercy and new-creating grace, and give diligence to make our calling and election sure.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 27, 2013 at 9:32pm

My beloved LT, as you, I will try to be short, but we don’t have that gift my brother hahaha, so bear with us you all.

 

Before I write another word, I want everyone in this blessed site to know that if I am convince with Scripture, by the Holy Spirit through any of my family in Christ, or by direct enlightenment, that my interpretation needs to change in any way, I have no problem changing. I am still learning and I am joyful that I have all eternity to contemplate the beauty of my Lord.

You said a lot bro. I will only touch on one thing from your post here.

 

>>To receive or reject the gift does not negate the sovereignty of God, because in His sovereignty He has given man the liberty to accept or reject the gift once they have been enlightened regarding their sin, Jesus, and are need for Him, etc. To say that man has this liberty does not make it part God and part man, because all that is required for salvation has been performed by God and given to man as a gift, but it is a gift that must be received for it to become in effect to that individual.

 

The problem with that is on the receiving. Are we capable of receiving the gift before God regenerates us. Without the work of the Spirit, not just in conviction or enlightenment of our condition, can we, using our will power receive him? Receive the gift?

 

Scripture leads us to believe that we are not able to choose God unless God saves us from ourselves first. I know how that sounds, believe me I know that the first thing that comes to mind is the obvious, if God saves me, then why do I need to repent and receive him, the answer is a simple one, because that is how He has ordained it. God does not come down to choose for us, we choose, but we choose because God has regenerated us. It is only then that we can see our sin for what it truly is, only then after we struggle with the Spirit and his conviction that we surrender.  

 

GEN 3:6 And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat. 7 And the eyes of them both were opened, and they knew that they were naked; and they sewed fig leaves together, and made themselves aprons. 8 And they heard the voice of the Lord God walking in the garden in the cool of the day: and Adam and his wife hid themselves from the presence of the Lord God amongst the trees of the garden. ECC 7:29 Lo, this only have I found, that God hath made man upright; but they have sought out many inventions. ROM 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God.

 GEN 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die. EPH 2:1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins.

 

(Genesis 3:6) every part of man—his mind, will, emotions and flesh—have been corrupted by sin. In other words, sin affects all areas of our being including who we are and what we do. It penetrates to the very core of our being so that everything is tainted by sin and “…all our righteous acts are like filthy rags” before a holy God (Isaiah 64:6). It acknowledges that the Bible teaches that we sin because we are sinners by nature. Or, as Jesus says, “So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit.” (Matthew 7:17-18). The total depravity of man is seen throughout the Bible. Man’s heart is “deceitful and desperately wicked” (Jeremiah 17:9), and the thoughts of his heart are “continually evil” (Genesis 6:5). The Bible also teaches us that man is born dead in transgression and sin (Psalm 51:5, Psalm 58:3, Ephesians 2:1-5). The Bible teaches that because unregenerate man is “dead in transgressions” (Ephesians 2:5), he is held captive by a love for sin (John 3:19; John 8:34) so that he will not seek God (Romans 3:10-11) because he loves the darkness (John 3:19) and does not understand the things of God (1 Corinthians 2:14). Therefore, men suppress the truth of God in unrighteousness (Romans 1:18) and continue to willfully live in sin. Because they are totally depraved, this sinful lifestyle seems right to men (Proverbs 14:12) so they reject the gospel of Christ as foolishness (1 Corinthians 1:18) and their mind is “hostile toward God; for it does not subject itself to the law of God, for it is unable to do so” (Romans 8:7).

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.

God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

I believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.” This is a sovereign act of God, whereby men are born again “not of the blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God” (John 1:12-13).

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/total-depravity.html#ixzz2dEMTJqxJ

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 28, 2013 at 5:54am

David,

 

The basic difference we have is on the when and/or process of salvation. I believe it is the work of the Holy Spirit to awaken the dead to the truth and then the liberty to receive is given to man by God. You believe that the holy Spirit first saves the man and then He because He is already saved surrenders to Jesus. 

 

We know that none seek after God unless God has called them and that the Holy Spirit is working on them. There are many who seek for God and yet walk away from the church and from God never to return. Did the dead seek God?

 

I am still learning and I am joyful that I have all eternity to contemplate the beauty of my Lord.

Amen. I trust all of us want to align with the truth even when it means adjusting what we currently believe if shown by Scripture to be in error.

 

>>To receive or reject the gift does not negate the sovereignty of God, because in His sovereignty He has given man the liberty to accept or reject the gift once they have been enlightened regarding their sin, Jesus, and are need for Him, etc. To say that man has this liberty does not make it part God and part man, because all that is required for salvation has been performed by God and given to man as a gift, but it is a gift that must be received for it to become in effect to that individual.

 

The problem with that is on the receiving. Are we capable of receiving the gift before God regenerates us. Without the work of the Spirit, not just in conviction or enlightenment of our condition, can we, using our will power receive him? Receive the gift?

 Does the Word of God ever return void? How does the Word of God impact the spiritually dead if it does not return void and yet they are blind and deaf? The answer is that the Holy Spirit illuminates the Word even to the dead person as the gospel is the power of God for salvation (Rom. 1:16). Thus, based on your view for the person to be affected by the Word of God they would first have to be regenerated in order to respond. I believe the Holy Spirit uses the gospel to open hearts and minds to the truth, otherwise why did Jesus preach what we call the sermon on the mount? Did His words fall on deaf ears or did they have an impact on spiritually dead people and if His words had an impact how is this possible? The Holy Spirit takes truth and convicts the heart of man, even sinful man.

 

Scripture leads us to believe that we are not able to choose God unless God saves us from ourselves first. I know how that sounds, believe me I know that the first thing that comes to mind is the obvious, if God saves me, then why do I need to repent and receive him, the answer is a simple one, because that is how He has ordained it. God does not come down to choose for us, we choose, but we choose because God has regenerated us. It is only then that we can see our sin for what it truly is, only then after we struggle with the Spirit and his conviction that we surrender.  

So, if I am reading you correctly you believe a person is born again and then they struggle with the truth and then surrender to Jesus. Here again is where our difference is highlighted. I believe that repentance is a process that leads to the point of decision regarding salvation. The Holy Spirit begins the work in us awakening us to the truth when the gospel is presented. We begin to see our sin as Peter told Jesus to get away from him for he saw himself as a sinful man. We begin to see the truth about Jesus and our need for Him. We recognize that we are lost and that Jesus is our only hope, but more than that we see Him in His beauty, yet some will love their sin more than Jesus and remain in darkness.

 

Your view really does not give man the liberty to choose, but simply respond as he has no choice because he is already born again.

 

The Apostle Paul summarizes the total depravity of man in Romans 3:9-18. He begins this passage by saying that “both Jews and Greeks are all under sin.” Simply put, this means that man is under the control of sin or is controlled by his sin nature (his natural tendency to sin). The fact that unregenerate people are controlled by their selfish, sinful tendencies should not come as a surprise to any parent. What parent has to teach his or her child to be selfish, to covet what someone else has or to lie? Those actions come naturally from the child’s sin nature. Instead, the parent must devote much time to teaching the child the importance of telling the truth, of sharing instead of being selfish, of obeying instead of rebelling, etc.
Did God speak to Abimelech regarding Abraham and Sarah? How did a spiritually dead man hear the voice of God without being saved first? Did he obey what he heard or choose his sinful nature to sleep with Sarah anyway?

 

On a side note I would like to state that I believe wholeheartedly in the lostness of man and the total depravity of man, but what does that mean? It relates specifically to our relationship with God, or lack of, and to our rebellious natures. Total depravity does not mean to be without some form of civility that is inbred in us. If it meant without civility we would see murder and rape being the norm of the day, yet there is a restraint in man that keeps him from killing every person he disagrees with.

 

God must overcome man’s depravity in such a way that man is able to recognize his spiritual state and his hopeless condition apart from the grace of God. Man’s spiritually blind eyes must be open and the bondage of sin that renders him hopelessly enslaved must be broken so that he can respond in faith to the gospel message and the atoning work of Christ on the cross.

This is true, but again we differ on the how God overcomes that depravity. I believe it is by the gospel presentation that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes and mind to the truth and then gives the liberty to embrace or reject Jesus.

 

I believe that for a man who is “dead in trespasses and sins” to be able to understand and respond to the gospel in faith, he must first be born again or regenerated by the Holy Spirit (John 3:3). It is only after God infuses spiritual life into a dead sinner that he can “see the kingdom of God.”
When do you believe that Cornelius was born again? Was he born again while seeking God and serving God’s people? Was he born again while the angel talked to him about calling for Peter? Was he born again when Peter spoke to him? Or when? I see this account as the process that God uses in man’s life. The Holy Spirit was already working on Him, but He needed to hear the gospel.

 

I will stop at this point.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 28, 2013 at 10:19am

David,

As you know I used to feel mankind had a lot of freewill, and I still believe that, even in the order of salvation, God allows us some liberty to choose. We are only able to choose because God chooses to draw us to Jesus and Jesus chooses to reveal Himself and the Father to us and Holy Spirit is at work in our hearts. It begins with illumination and then receiving Jesus and ends with transformation -- the new birth which is a gift from God and the faith and the repentance are also gifts from God and no one can boast for it's God's will that we have the liberty to receive Jesus and to obey or disobey. I believe God has given mankind a lot of light and hasn't left anyone completely in darkness and I believe we can respond to whatever amount of light we have been given, even a very little amount and I believe that reponse is very important and God is seeking the ones who love light, love Him.

But, like you, I'm still learning. 

In the past, I was taught that by hearing the word, we believe, and that means we have been begotten again because before we can be born again, we must be begotten again. In other words, there must be a life-causing seed to generate new life. The seed is planted in our hearts. But believing is not enough to be born again and then the verse from 1 John 5:1 was used but only to state that there is a difference between being begotten of the Father and being born again. 
 
The teaching goes on to say that after the begetting, the sign of new life is repentance (1 John 3:9) and that means turning away from sin and seeking to live right in the sight of God. Yet, many fall away after a little while. 

The parable of the sower demonstrates that people can believe and even repent and endure for a little while but then fall away because they have no root. 
Others do become rooted and then produce fruit because their root remains.

In the Old Testament, people showed belief and repentance but we know they were not regenerated, or born again, under the Old Covenant. 

The account of Manasseh in 2 Chronicles 33 shows a repentance that God found acceptable.

If it isn't possible that someone can genuinely repent and believe without first being born again, then how do you see the faith of those in the OT, since all were saved by grace through faith under the Old Covenant, too?

Mark 4 ESV

14 The sower sows the word. 
15 And these are the ones along the path, where the word is sown: when they hear, Satan immediately comes and takes away the word that is sown in them. 
16 And these are the ones sown on rocky ground: the ones who, when they hear the word, immediately receive it with joy. 
17 And they have no root in themselves, but endure for a while; then, when tribulation or persecution arises on account of the word, immediately they fall away.[a] 
18 And others are the ones sown among thorns. They are those who hear the word, 
19 but the cares of the world and the deceitfulness of riches and the desires for other things enter in and choke the word, and it proves unfruitful. 
20 But those that were sown on the good soil are the ones who hear the word and accept it and bear fruit, thirtyfold and sixtyfold and a hundredfold.”

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Permalink Reply by Charles Burwell on August 31, 2013 at 10:27am

Grace to you

In response to your comments about my statement concerning 'questioning God to deeply' I was refering to questioning the reason for a particular occurance in my life. God allows us to question Him but is under no obligation to explain the 'why'. Many times He has told me to just'leave it alone and trust Him to use even this for my good. It is then that I stop 'questioning too deeply' the why and simply yield to His vastly superior wisdom in the situation.

 

You stated   ' I do not believe for one moment that God would give us His Word and expect us to not ask Him for understanding. I do not for one moment that God would ask us to sit there like twigs tossed in a mighty storm and not understand His written Word. Nothing in the Bible directs me to that point."

 

It is an absolute mystery to me as to how you came to this conclusion from what I wrote. I have always encouraged people to ask wisdom from God when they are in need (as James encourages us to do).  It's like you were responding to some other comment from somewhere else.

 

Ihave not known a Christian in the over 30 years since I met the Lord who hasn't questioned the 'why' of something and had the Lord tell them to just' let it go and trust that He can use even this to our eventual good'. If you have not then you can consider yourself truly blessed but the day will come when God tells you this . Then you will understand what I am talking about.

 

Anyhow, God bless

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Permalink Reply by Colby on September 2, 2013 at 11:59am

Do we choose God, or does God choose us?

           Paul, quoting the Old Testament, writes in Romans 9:15: For he [God] says to Moses, “I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”

           Human choice is an interesting thing, isn’t it?  It is one of the highest values that I as an American hold.  We live in a culture that worships consumerism and choice.  Some conclude that any limitation on their capacity to choose becomes an assault on their ability to be free. 

           Many see our ability to choose as what defines our liberty.  But our choices are never made free of constraints. We never have perfect autonomy in our choices.  Sometimes we are constrained by our resources. We might desire to choose a new Mercedes Benz or BMW, but we might have to choose a used Hyundai instead because of limited means.  Even when our financial resources do not constrain us, we still face other obstacles to autonomy when making choices. Information, or the lack of full information, is clearly a constraint on our autonomy and, thus, on our choices. We rarely have all the accurate information we need to make the best or most faithful choice. 

           So, how free are our choices really? For example, I have chosen to follow Jesus as my Savior and Lord. But I do not remember making that choice. There was not a particular point in time when I recall sitting down, weighing all the information in front of me and then making the choice to follow Jesus. What actually happened was God laid hold of me in ways I could not fully comprehend. And that continues to happen. God continues to work on me in ways that are beyond my comprehension. All I know is that God has laid a claim on me and constrained me in ways that shape how I see my life and the world.  My choices then are directly influenced by my desire to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength.  So how free am I really to choose some other life for myself?  My hunch is that I am less free to choose than I might care to admit. 

          In Chapter 13 of Paul's First Letter to the Corinthians, Paul clearly recognizes that our imperfection and sin nature limits our capacity to freely choose.  Paul says that in our human condition we “look through a glass darkly.” That’s Paul’s way of saying that our humanity limits our capacity to see things as God sees them and thus we cannot have true freedom of choice.

          It is God who chooses to create us and then even more wonderfully, to redeem us in Jesus Christ. It is God who rules the heavens and earth.  It is God who is all knowing, all powerful, just, loving and perfect--a spirit being outside of the time-space continuum of his creation.  My sisters and brothers, is our faith is grounded in God’s choice of us, or our choice of God?  

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