"I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy"

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Seek on August 28, 2013 at 7:54am

Same goes for me to Janie.  She and I have had some back end conversations.  I do believe as David does, that she IS saved.  She accepted Christ.  BUT...she also has a part to do.  I've told her repeatedly she needs to force herself to get into the Word daily if she ever wants to grow past the struggling and move from here, to ever have any kind of breakthrough away from these thoughts.  I guess because of what I did go through, I always want to kind of temper it for people who I know may feel condemned over things to let them know just not to quit.  That's the worst thing anyone can do, no matter what their feelings or how hard the struggle. We have to keep on pressing forward to ever get any breakthroughs.

Permalink Reply by ribbon on August 28, 2013 at 11:05am

LT and Seek,

Please don't delete anything.

Permalink Reply by Seek on August 28, 2013 at 11:38am

I dunno Janie, I'm considering deleting my work day.  It's gone nowhere fast.  LOL

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 28, 2013 at 6:08am

 

I believe what scripture teaches haha, that indeed there are those who are unable to be saved, but not because God has marked them for condemnation before the foundation of the earth, but because they are dead in transgressions.

All are dead in their transgressions, for all fall short of the glory of God. That included you and me. So, being dead in transgressions cannot be the only identifier as to why someone cannot be saved in your belief system, for many who were dead are now alive.

 

Another way of putting this, are there those who are dead in transgressions who can be saved and those who are dead in transgressions who cannot be saved? If that is true then what makes the difference between those who can and those who cannot be saved?

 

According to scripture Christ died for his church, his sheep, his people, so in that sense, yes the atonement is limited to the Church, but not limited in power. In other words, if any man was to come to Christ the atonement would cover them, but none come to Christ to be saved, no, not one.

Yes, Christ died for His church. Here is again a point of difference. You believe He died for the church, those already chosen by God. I believe in the foreknowledge that enables God to see the completed work and He knows who will choose Him by responding to the gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit, while others will reject the gospel. The church is those who will be born again.

 

Please reconcile for me how you believe that God has not marked people for condemnation from the foundation of the earth and how He has selected those He has selected to be part of the church from the foundation of the earth. By default if He has selected one the other is automatically excluded. On the other hand if God in His foreknowledge knows who will hear the gospel and respond by receiving Christ and knows who will hear the gospel and reject Christ, as well as who will never hear the gospel we can understand that Jesus died for the church and at the same time made an offer to all of mankind that can be received or rejected when one is confronted with the gospel.

 

I have another question, imagine that :-)

Of what value is the gospel in the salvation process if God has already saved the person before they hear it? Or better if I ask, where does the gospel fit in to the salvation process in your view since the Word says that it is the power of God for salvation (Rom. 1:16)

 

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 28, 2013 at 3:37pm

LT,

 

>>...being dead in transgressions cannot be the only identifier as to why someone cannot be saved in your belief system, for many who were dead are now alive. ... what makes the difference between those who can and those who cannot be saved?

They (we) were quicken by God. We were made a live by Christ. God changed our heart from eternity past. God chose us unto salvation. We are the elect of God, by his will and good pleasure. We are the recipients of his Grace, not by anything we have done, but by his good pleasure alone. The ones that die and go to hell go to hell because they were dead in their sin and like us they love their sin. God did not choose them to be saved. God allowed them to reap the consequences of their passions.

 

 >>Yes, Christ died for His church. Here is again a point of difference. You believe He died for the church, those already chosen by God. I believe in the foreknowledge that enables God to see the completed work and He knows who will choose Him by responding to the gospel under the conviction of the Holy Spirit.

Let us look at what is “foreknowledge.”

Question: "How are predestination and election connected with foreknowledge?"

Answer: Certainly, since God knows everything, it would have been possible for God to base His predestination and election of individuals upon His foreknowledge of the future. In fact, that is the exact position that many Christians believe, as it is the Arminian view of predestination. The problem is that it really is not what the Bible teaches about predestination, election, and foreknowledge. In order to understand why the view that “God made His choice based on merely knowing the future” is not what the Bible teaches, let’s first consider a couple of verses that speak to the reason God elected or predestined people to salvation.

Ephesians 1:5 tells us that God “predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will.” According to this verse, the basis of our being predestined is not something that we do or will do, but is based solely on the will of God for His own pleasure. As Romans 9:15-16 says, “I will have mercy on whomever I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whomever I will have compassion. It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.” Similarly, Romans 9:11 declares regarding Jacob and Esau, “Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: not by works but by him who calls.” Then again in Ephesians 1:11 we see that people are “chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will.” From these and many others passages, we see that Scripture consistently teaches that predestination or election is not based upon something that we do or will do. God predestined people based on His own sovereign will to redeem for Himself people from every tribe, tongue, and nation. God predetermined or predestined this from before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4) based solely on His sovereign will and not because of anything that He knew the people would do.

But what about Romans 8:29 where it says that those “He foreknew, He also predestined”? Doesn’t that seem to say that predestination is based upon the foreknowledge of God? Of course, the answer is yes, it does teach that predestination is based on the foreknowledge of God. But what does the word foreknowledge mean? Does it mean “based upon God’s knowledge of the future,” meaning God simply looks down through the future and sees who will believe the gospel message and then predestines or elects them? If that were the case, it would contradict the verses above from Romans and Ephesians that make it very clear election is not based on anything man does or will do.

Fortunately, God does not leave us to wonder about this issue. In John 10:26, Jesus said, “But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep.” The reason some people believe is that they belong to God. They were chosen for salvation, not based on the fact that they would one day believe, but because God chose them for “adoption as sons in Christ Jesus” before they ever existed. The reason one person believes and another person does not is that one person has been adopted by God and the other has not. The truth is that the word foreknew in Romans 8:29 is not speaking of God's knowing the future. The word foreknowledge is never used in terms of knowing about future events, times or actions (God’s omniscience). What it does describe is a predetermined relationship in the knowledge of God whereby God brings the salvation relationship into existence by decreeing it into existence ahead of time.

The word know is sometimes used in the Bible to describe an intimate or personal relationship between a man and a woman. In a similar sense, before God ever created the heavens and earth, and a long time before we were ever born, God knew His elect in a personal way and chose them to be His sheep, not because they would someday follow Him but in order to guarantee that they would follow Him. His knowing them and choosing them is the reason they follow Him, not the other way around. The issue really is not whether or not God knows who will believe, but why some believe and others do not. The answer to that is God chooses to have mercy on some and others He leaves in their sinful rebellion.

The following quote by John Murray is excellent in dealing with this issue: "Even if it were granted that ‘foreknew’ means the foresight of faith, the biblical doctrine of sovereign election is not thereby eliminated or disproven. For it is certainly true that God foresees faith; He foresees all that comes to pass. The question would then simply be: whence proceeds this faith, which God foresees? And the only biblical answer is that the faith which God foresees is the faith He himself creates (cf. John 3:3-8; 6:44, 45, 65; Eph. 2:8; Phil. 1:29; 2 Peter 1:2). Hence His eternal foresight of faith is preconditioned by His decree to generate this faith in those whom He foresees as believing."

Read more: http://www.gotquestions.org/predestination-foreknowledge.html#ixzz2...

>>Please reconcile for me how you believe that God has not marked people for condemnation from the foundation of the earth and how He has selected those He has selected to be part of the church from the foundation of the earth.

In my mind there is no reconciliation require. God chooses some and lets the others get their will. It doesn’t mean that He actively marks them for condemnation. You have two kidos. They are both in a boat heading towards a waterfall. You are hanging from a tree branch and when the boat goes by, you reach down for one and save him from death. Did you mark the other one for death? You chose to save one and which one to save, if you had a choice in the matter, but you didn’t mark the other one for death, you simply didn’t save him. The other one can still jump out of the boat and he can try swimming to shore, but if that one says, no I rather die in this boat. Then it is him, himself who mark himself. God saves some, the rest thought they get conviction, the word, natural revelation, and testimonies etc they choose their sin, because men love darkness, can they choose God, yes, by all means, but they won’t. No one is going around wanting to die to self and this world.

 

>>By default if He has selected one the other is automatically excluded.

I don’t see it that way. The other one is still sincerely call. When I preach and teach i call all to repentance and I long for men to repent. My call is true. I am not offering men something they cannot attain, but I am very aware that those that believe do so because God has changed them, by one of the many means He uses to bring men to himself.  

 >>On the other hand if God in His foreknowledge knows who will hear the gospel and respond by receiving Christ and knows who will hear the gospel and reject Christ, as well as who will never hear the gospel we can understand that Jesus died for the church and at the same time made an offer to all of mankind that can be received or rejected when one is confronted with the gospel.

 

I just don’t see that as the biblical teaching of the foreknowledge of God.

 

>>Of what value is the gospel in the salvation process if God has already saved the person before they hear it? Or better if I ask, where does the gospel fit in to the salvation process in your view since the Word says that it is the power of God for salvation (Rom. 1:16).

 

God has already chosen the person in eternity past, but He has ordained that we believe, repent and surrender to him through his elected mean. The preaching of the Gospel, the prayers of the saints, the conviction of the Holy Spirit etc...

 

Blessings my brother.

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 29, 2013 at 7:19am

Grace -

 

Please feel free to ask away. You all are a blessing. Please don't hesitate to ask the hard questions.

 

God offers Salvation to all humanity, that is why this verse makes sense in light of that truth, not only does he offer it, but he gives natural revelation of himself,  as well as to work through the conscious of men:

 

"For the  grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men" (Titus 2:11)

 

 

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on August 29, 2013 at 11:53am

I get thoroughly what you mean, David, when you say people “have all gone their own way, none seek God, not one.” Everyone has received light from God, but even in Israel in the OT, we see what people do with that light. We also see that it is a choice and that darkness can still be chosen over light. Yet, there is a remedy. I’ll show it to you in a minute. First, read this:

Ezekiel 8:16-18
And he brought me into the inner court of the house of the Lord. And behold, at the entrance of the temple of the Lord, between the porch and the altar, were about twenty-five men, with their backs to the temple of the Lord, and their faces toward the east, worshiping the sun toward the east. Then he said to me, “Have you seen this, O son of man? Is it too light a thing for the house of Judah to commit the abominations that they commit here, that they should fill the land with violence and provoke me still further to anger? Behold, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore I will act in wrath. My eye will not spare, nor will I have pity. And though they cry in my ears with a loud voice, I will not hear them.” (ESV)

There was always a remnant of people whom God spared in the OT, and not just a few but numerous people, and some of them are listed in Hebrews 11. God’s plan was unfolding.

We read in Jeremiah 32:39-41:

39 I will give them one heart and one way, that they may fear me forever, for their own good and the good of their children after them. 40 I will make with them an everlasting covenant, that I will not turn away from doing good to them. And I will put the fear of me in their hearts, that they may not turn from me. 41 I will rejoice in doing them good, and I will plant them in this land in faithfulness, with all my heart and all my soul (ESV).

We aren’t saved by what we do or don’t do. We are saved by grace through faith. I’m not completely sure how it happens. My point is, it happens and it’s God’s plan and it’s God’s agenda that, after we understand and accept it, then we share the saving message of Jesus. I’m thankful that it isn’t up to people to choose to pursue God first. Left to ourselves, we would all wander astray and turn from God, turn our backs to Him. We need that one heart and one way that He gives us.

Re-read verse 41 -- God rejoices in doing us good.

I heard someone explain it like God being in a police cruiser, chasing you, lights flashing, sirens blaring, to get you to stop for a moment so that He can give you faith through His saving message. It’s that important to God -- an emergency. Today is the day of salvation. Yes, God is merciful.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on August 28, 2013 at 7:02pm

David,

 

I was in the middle of writings a detailed response point by point, but stopped. It will only become a tic-for-tac. You and I have been down this road before and are no closer to agreeing on this issue than before. Thus, I will point out the differences and leave it at that for now.

 

(For the benefit of those who may read this I want it understood that I love David and he is my brother in the Lord. We can disagree and discuss things and still have a genuine love for each other. One day we will be gathered around the throne and he will see that I was right ….hahahaha)

 

We disagree on:

The meaning of foreknowledge and its implication in the sovereign work of God. I am not an Arminian. My view did not develop because of studying their view (just to clear the air). Foreknowledge does not mean simply looking into the future as God exists outside of time. When we say He sees the beginning from the end we do not ascribe to God as if he were looking at His watch. He sees it all and it is all real to Him. He, though, created time and has placed man in the time spectrum. By the will of God according to His plan in the time spectrum Jesus entered the human race and died shedding His blood making the effect to man applicable in time, but has always been according to God. Our choosing God in time is no different to Him than His Son dying on the cross in time. They exist and occur in the spectrum of time, but have been real to Him before the foundation of the world.

 

The effect and power of the gospel. The gospel is the mechanism that God has chosen to reach the world. It is the power of God for the salvation of everyone who believes (Rom. 1:16). We also know that faith comes from hearing the Word (Romans 10:17) and that Romans 10:14 makes an interesting statement … “How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them?”

 

Romans 10:12 tells us that the Lord blesses all who call on Him and not simply those He predestined. This tied with Romans 1:16, 10:9 and 10:14 leave us with Romans 10:13 that also aligns with John 3:16 shows that God has given man the liberty to receive or reject when confronted with the gospel.

 

Repentance: 2 Peter 3:9 say, “The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.” This verse makes no sense if man has no choice in the matter and all who are going to be saved were selected before the foundation of the world. Why would God say that He is “not wanting anyone to perish” when the deal was already sealed by Him? Why would God “want everyone to come to repentance” when There is no hope that any other than the selected elect (in your view) could possibly come to repentance. Think about this. God does not want any to perish, but has already selected by default all that will perish … why “want?” The door of repentance is closed to those not chosen (according to your view) and they have no hope of ever repenting. This then leads to why preach the gospel? Why preach the gospel to the dead without hope who cannot respond because they have been selected to not receive salvation? Why preach the gospel to those who have been selected? I can almost understand the second part, but not the first.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 1, 2013 at 6:17pm

Grace -

 

You asked:

 

>>what's the point?  If God is to deliver us, He will, no doubt about that.  Also, no doubt about His salvation, He has provided salvation for all, but not all will receive it.

 

That is absolutely correct sis :) God will deliver those He wills to deliver, no doubt about that. He has already paid with the death of his Son. That sacrifice was not just to give humanity the possibility of being saved, but saved the elect of God. Yes, God has provided salvation to all, but not all will receive it, only those appointed to salvation.

 

>>Now to the crux of the matter, when someone doesn't receive salvation, according to David's reply, I'm thinking that it was meant to be...such as God has chosen that this person will never receive salvation no matter what they do?

 

God has chosen those that will be saved, that is clear through scripture, but we don't like it and we  do all we can to come up with another way, the popular way. God has not chosen anyone not to be saved by actively keeping people from salvation, except for those on whom He has already pass judgments over even as they remain living.

 

• John 15:16: "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit and that your fruit should abide, so that whatever you ask the Father in my name, he may give it to you."
• John 1:12,13: "But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13 who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God."
• Acts 13:48: "And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed."
• Romans 9:15-16: "For he says to Moses, 'I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.' So then it depends not on human will or exertion, but on God, who has mercy."
• Romans 9:22-24: "What if God, desiring to show his wrath and to make known his power, has endured with much patience vessles of wrath prepared for destruction, in order to make the riches of his glory for vessles of mercy, which he has prepared beforehand for glory - even us whom he has called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?"
• Ephesians 1:4-5: "even as he chose us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before him. In love he predestined us for adoption through Jesus Christ, according to the purpose of his will,"
• Ephesians 1:11: "In him we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to the purpose of him who works all things according to the counsel of his will,"
• Philippians 1:29: "For it has been granted to you that for the sake of Christ you should not only believe in him but also suffer for his sake"
• 1 Thessalonians 1:4-5: "For we know, brothers loved by God, that he has chosen you, because our gospel came to you not only in word, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction. You know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake."
• 2 Thessalonians 2:13: "But we ought always to give thanks to God for you, brothers beloved by the Lord, because God chose you as the firstfruits to be saved, through sanctification [by the Spirit] and belief in the truth."
• 2 Timothy 1:9: "who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"

 

 

>>Is this filled with hope?  No.  

 

The way you have interpreted my words, no, there is not much hope there. But the way scripture explains it - is the only hope for humanity. The way we have been taught that salvation occurs is so drastically different from being the will of man in conjunction with the will of God that when we hear that is only the will of God first and our will response by choosing, repenting, believing once God has quicken us that we have a very difficult time grasping it and all kinds of conjunctions are conjured up on the people trying to decipher what's being plainly said.

 

God chooses to save some, the church, that in no way means He chooses some to go to hell from eternity past.

 

The only message that is full of hope is the biblical one. God saves us by grace alone. Not because of human will, but because of God's will and good pleasure.

 

>>Then I think upon the "faith".  Was Abraham approved because he was already chosen by God, or was it based on his faith in God's promises?  Same goes with everyone mentioned in that hall of faith.  

 

Yes, indeed, it is by Grace through faith, not by faith through Grace. By Grace alone through faith and where does that faith come from, who gives that faith, does it originate with the creature? NO, not at all. Scripture clearly teaches that even the faith to believe is a gift. Ephesians 2:8-9 and many other places.

 

>>There is a responsibility put upon man whom he shall serve.  

 

There is an enormous difference between who we serve and being born again. A call to service is one thing. A call to salvation is a complete different matter.

 

Much love to you Grace. Shoot away. Ask the difficult questions beloved, it's all good.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on September 1, 2013 at 7:07pm

God has not chosen anyone not to be saved by actively keeping people from salvation....

True

1 Timothy 2:1 I urge, then, first of all, that requests, prayers, intercession and thanksgiving be made for everyone-- 2 for kings and all those in authority, that we may live peaceful and quiet lives in all godliness and holiness. 3 This is good, and pleases God our Savior, 4 who wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on September 2, 2013 at 10:33am

David,

You said:

"God has chosen those that will be saved, that is clear through scripture, but we don't like it and we  do all we can to come up with another way, the popular way. God has not chosen anyone not to be saved by actively keeping people from salvation, except for those on whom He has already pass judgments over even as they remain living."

I guess the part that bothers me is "but we don't like it and we  do all we can to come up with another way, the popular way" and I'm not sure I agree because, for me, it's not about not liking what some say is God's way in this matter, but it's about understanding the true meaning of how we are saved as God's way and the true way. When two people disagree, both can't be right but both can be wrong. 

I still believe that whe light is given by God, along with the light comes the ability, or the enabling by God, to make a decision, even before one is given a new heart and a new spirit. The OT shows many accounts of people responding to God. 

In Acts 17, the people were ignorant until they received Paul's preaching. 

24 “The God who made the world and everything in it is the Lord of heaven and earth and does not live in temples built by human hands. 25 And he is not served by human hands, as if he needed anything. Rather, he himself gives everyone life and breath and everything else. 26 From one man he made all the nations, that they should inhabit the whole earth; and he marked out their appointed times in history and the boundaries of their lands. 27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us. 28 ‘For in him we live and move and have our being.’[b] As some of your own poets have said, ‘We are his offspring.’[c]

The difference about who receives Christ and who doesn't receive Christ appears to be on us and not on God. The difference apears to be in the fact that some have within them a willingness to receive Him. This receptivity is enabled by God, certainly, and wouldn't exist without God initiating the process. Others fight it and close themselves off from it. With light there seems to come spiritual awareness even before the new birth. I'm not saying this because it's the way I want it to be. It does bring me to peace about this. Yet, in light of the whole of Scripture, it appears true to me at this point in my understanding. 

Felix in Acts 24 was really fighting it. It doesn't appear to me that the difference between Felix receiving Christ and not receiving Christ was on God not choosing him for salvation but on Felix. 

24 Several days later Felix came with his wife Drusilla, who was Jewish. He sent for Paul and listened to him as he spoke about faith in Christ Jesus. 25 As Paul talked about righteousness, self-control and the judgment to come, Felix was afraid and said, “That’s enough for now! You may leave. When I find it convenient, I will send for you.”

Was Felix not able to receive Christ because of something in Felix that God refused to enable?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on September 2, 2013 at 12:42pm

Amanda -

I have responded to your questions and post on the last page.

 

blessings beloved.

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