All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Proverbs 18:21
Death and life are in the power of the tongue,
And those who love it will eat its fruit.
I would like thoughts on what this means to you.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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You said,
"If I truly believe it shows in my actions, I don't just sit around and wait for angel to tap me on the head with a magic staff and make everything ok."
I know you don't really mean it but when you say it that way, it feels like a real put down because it sounds like you are saying there are those who don't really believe and who do sit around doing nothing except waiting for a magical tap on their shoulder that will fix everything. For many who are struggling, there are no easy answers or quick fixes and they definitely already know this and are waiting on God while walking in the spirit as much as they know how. Blessings to you ...
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JB,
I believe 2 Timothy 2:21 means that God will use those who are living nobly for noble purposes. Those who have turned to the Lord also turn away from sin. Again, this is a matter of spiritual maturity. We can't ask or expect the less mature to do what the more mature know to do.
The knowing is a work that God does in someone, and the obeying is a work we do based on how much we know. We can read the Bible day in and day out and still not get it. Enlightenment comes from God and I believe is given to us in manageable doses based on spiritual maturity.
Additionally, all of us fall short when it comes to knowing and doing regardless of how spiritually mature we are and how much of our mind has been renewed. Thank God for 1 John 1:9. None of us are saving ourselves.
If someone is living in open rebellion or habitually sinning, then they are not noble and won't be used by God as those who are instruments for noble purposes. How do we become more noble? That's really the question.
I would answer it by saying as we mature in the faith we become more and more noble.
How do we mature in the faith? See Romans 12:1-2. It is a lifelong process and a work God is doing in each of us. Once the changes happen inwardly, then what flows out of our minds will also change. The heart is new and the spirit is new, but the mind, will, intellect and emotions -- the soul -- is not. We will want to turn away from wickedness as we become more and more enlightened about holiness and righteousness. This has been my experience anyway. We can't ask infants to walk before they are able to stand, can we? Why do we ask spiritual infants to act like spiritual adults? You appear to be miles and miles ahead of many of us in spiritual growth and, yet, Jesus asks all of us to be careful with the little ones. We are all in Christ's hands, whether young or old spiritually. Those whose spirits have been born again, their spirits start out as infants and must begin to grow.
MacArthur comments on 2 Timothy 2:20-21:
Articles made of gold or silver are more valuable and presentable than those of wood or earthenware. The former would be prominently displayed as decorations or used for serving important guests as a gesture of honor. The inferior articles, on the other hand, were strictly utilitarian. They were common, plain, replaceable, and some were used for garbage and human waste of the house. They were used for those duties that were never seen and were kept out of sight as much as possible.
Honor and dishonor do not refer to true and false Christians, respectively. Jesus makes clear in the parable of the wheat and tares (Matt. 13:24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30) and in His teaching about the sheep and goats judgment of the nations (Matt. 25:31-46) that the visible church on earth will contain both unbelievers and believers until He returns and orders the final separation. But Paul is not speaking about that distinction. (Ro 12:3, 6-see notes Ro12:3; 6, 1Co 12:17,18)... Honor and dishonor therefore refer to the ways in which genuine believers are found useful to the Lord in fulfilling the work to which He has called them. In this sense, all believers should be, but are not always, vessels of honor. (MacArthur, J. 2 Timothy. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos)
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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With all due respect Amanda; but I do not agree with this Mr. MacArthur’s analogy/ interpretation of this scripture. To me, this scripture is making a physical comparison to a spiritual truth. You are a great house in the sight of God, and in you there are things that are honorable and there are things that are not so honorable, or we could say are not acceptable or conducive to living a Christian life. If a man/woman would purge himself, or lay aside these things; the sins that so easily besets us. Heb.12:1, a person’s conscience then would not be defiled, and therefore would have more confidence in God. 1Jo.3:20-21, and could be used more easily of God, when we have sin, or things we think God is not pleased with in our behavior, we will feel that God can’t use us, this is a sin consciousness and (this is one of those vessels of dishonor, that we need to purge out) we feel so unworthy, we forget that our righteousness is of God,Isa.54:17, and not of ourselves, however God can use anything or anyone to minister to those He wishes. He used a donkey to talk to a prophet, I’m sure He could use a person, whether or not his conscience has been defiled. I have heard some say “God can’t use a dirty vessel” but what other vessels does He have to work with? We’ve all sinned and come short of the glory of God. A person might take the scripture in Isa.54:14 to think he must live a sinless life, though we still have unfavorable actions in our walk with Him, our righteousness is still of Him and not of ourselves. To mature in the Lord is not being able to do all the exploits one might associate with being a mature Christian, “health, wealth and prosperity” but having the knowledge of God that we totally rely on Him and His promises without physical evidence, the only evidence the new creation requires is the Word of God. 2Pet.1:3-4, His Divine power has given to us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him…2Cor.9:8, God is able to make all grace abound toward you; that you, having all sufficiency in all things, may abound to every good work.
Blessing
JB
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Well, in light of 2 Timothy 2:14-15, I will refrain from quarreling with you about words and just say that you have the freedom to believe what you want, as do I.
14 Keep reminding God’s people of these things. Warn them before God against quarreling about words; it is of no value, and only ruins those who listen. 15 Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.
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Permalink Reply by Vincent Hayden on
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In this context, noble means not to be conformed to the patterns of this world. Thank you JB, I agree God can use someone as a bad example, I'm praying that's what I turn out not to be. I catch sinful thoughts coming up in my mind and grow impatient with my progress, So, Amanda, I'm definately not putting anyone down - I'm in no position to Judge. I'm just trying to find ways to serve the lord better all the time, I know it's a one step at a time process - It's just that these many years I would have thought I might be doing better now.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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I catch sinful thoughts coming up in my mind and grow impatient with my progress
LOL That must be a theme for the growing Christian. I get so irritated that I even HAVE such a thought.
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We really have no control over the thoughts that come up, but we can learn to manage those thoughts (take them captive instead of allowing them to keep us captive). However, as the mind becomes renewed more and more, the thoughts that come up will become more and more pure, or at least the impure thoughts will occur to a lesser and lesser degree. Since the mind is part of the soul, total renewal of it will happen when we see Jesus. Until then, God is renewing it in doses, in preparation for that moment, I believe.
1 John 3:2
New King James Version (NKJV)
2 Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is.
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Well what I've struggled with is a sudden curse word ringing in my head that doesn't seem to go away. I'm miffed that it even came to mind. And I feel God tells me to ignore it. That it's staying on my mind because I'm focused on it being there and worrying on it, to just shrug it off as a passing thought. I'm trying to instead immediately replace it with saying God Bless or something so I refocus my attention elsewhere. Instead of obsessing on having had the thought in the first place.
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We have power over our thoughts in the sense that we are able to direct our attention to focus on something specific. This is discipline. Thus, Philippians 4:8. Yet, even Jesus said, "Nothing outside a person can defile them by going into them. Rather, it is what comes out of a person that defiles them" (Mark 7:15, NIV).
We have little, if any, control over thoughts that pop into our heads which are often negative and sinful. They are coming from the flesh and as long as we are in the flesh, we will have to fight this battle, I believe. I'm still learning and realize my understanding of these matters is still incomplete.
Our response to them is important. We are asked to walk by the spirit. See Galatians 5:16-26.
As I said earlier, I believe, as we mature spiritually, that the bad thoughts that pop up will occur to a lesser and lesser degree because of our minds being renewed. Still, the battle rages.
Our thinking pattern isn't causing our problems. Our problems have caused our thinking patterns.
The new age teaches that negative thinking is the problem and, sadly, this teaching has crept into the church. When looking to change their lives, many people have come to believe that their thinking is the whole problem, and if they change their thinking, they can change their lives. What needs to be addressed are the problems that have caused the thinking patterns, but, even then, the war between the spirit and the flesh continues. God is addressing those problems through transformation.
The teaching of the Law of Attraction has crept into the church and it is causing more harm to already traumatised people, simply because people are being told from pulpits that those who think positively get positive things in their lives and those who think negatively get negative things in their lives. The logic that naturally follows is that something bad happened to me and my thinking attracted it to me, so I'm to blame. Is that what Jesus taught? What about the rain falling on the just and the unjust? I believe it's a way of victim blaming. It hurts and destroys faith IMO and in my experience.
16 So I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not gratify the desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever[c] you want. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.
19 The acts of the flesh are obvious: sexual immorality, impurity and debauchery; 20 idolatry and witchcraft; hatred, discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish ambition, dissensions, factions 21 and envy; drunkenness, orgies, and the like. I warn you, as I did before, that those who live like this will not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law. 24 Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. 25 Since we live by the Spirit, let us keep in step with the Spirit. 26 Let us not become conceited, provoking and envying each other. (NIV) -
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We have little, if any, control over thoughts that pop into our heads which are often negative and sinful.
Yeah, and this is what God is trying to get me to see and not cringe and beat myself up when the thought comes...which is what I do. The thoughts bother me...terribly, and I want rid of them.
As I said earlier, I believe, as we mature spiritually, that the bad thoughts that pop up will occur to a lesser and lesser degree because of our minds being renewed.And this too is what He was speaking to me this morning, that as I read the Word more and more, eventually, that will replace those thoughts over time, but to stop cringing and obsessing over the fact that they come, just ignore em.
The new age teaches that negative thinking is the problem and, sadly, this teaching has crept into the church.
You might get the same kick out of this that I got. LOL! This was something else I heard in my spirit this morning. You know I question the teachings my own church leaders hold to of speaking positive and God can't help you if you speak negative. God said to me this morning....who was believing He could create the earth in order to move Him to create it? ROFL!!!! That is soooooooooooo God! Hahahahah
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JB,
It sounds like you are saying we need to "purge out" our awareness of sin instead of the sins themselves. There is a difference between being reminded of past forgiven sins and being convicted of present sins. I am aware of the teaching which says sin consciousness is having an evil conscience.
We are not under condemnation anymore when we are born again. We are holy and righteous and nothing we do or don't do is going to make us more and more holy and righteous. However, God asks us to willingly walk in the holiness and righteousness that we have in Christ. Willingly is a key word here, and God will use willing vessels.
Yes, God will sometimes go against the will of a man, like Jonah, who ran from God and was unwilling, and still use that man. But, for the most part, God is more glorified by using willing vessels.
The disagreement that you and I are having appears to be on how a person becomes a willing vessel. I'm not of the belief that transformation will come to me simply through rote memorization of the Scriptures. It comes as a supernatural work of God. Memorizing the word isn't the same as knowing and understanding it.
As far as wiping sin from our conscious awareness, for me to believe that God wants me to do this, I would have to wipe out many passages of Scriptures, such as 1 Timothy 5:
20 As for those who persist in sin, rebuke them in the presence of all, so that the rest may stand in fear. 21 In the presence of God and of Christ Jesus and of the elect angels I charge you to keep these rules without prejudging, doing nothing from partiality. 22 Do not be hasty in the laying on of hands, nor take part in the sins of others; keep yourself pure. 23 (No longer drink only water, but use a little wine for the sake of your stomach and your frequent ailments.) 24 The sins of some people are conspicuous, going before them to judgment, but the sins of others appear later. 25 So also good works are conspicuous, and even those that are not cannot remain hidden. (ESV)
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Additionally, as we look at Jonah, who most definitely was unwilling and in rebellion, we also see that God used him to do something that wasn't really considered a noble purpose -- taking the gospel to the worst of people who were also Israel's most dreaded enemy! No one wanted God to bless Nineveh. I'm sure this was a very great blow to Jonah's ego. He ran, didn't he? But no one is beyond being saved, not even our worst enemies.
Honor and dishonor therefore refer to the ways in which genuine believers are found useful to the Lord in fulfilling the work to which He has called them. In this sense, all believers should be, but are not always, vessels of honor. (MacArthur, J. 2 Timothy. Chicago: Moody Press or Logos)
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