Question from an Atheist.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 11, 2013 at 4:00am

Wholehearted,

You and I are not going to resolve the issue you speak of. It is the difference of a Calvinist speaking to a person that is not Calvinistic. We are not going to resolve the issue of limited atonement. I think we all agree that some believe and some do not. And I am sure that we are in agreement that the atonement is only for those that believe.

In the church you will have all kinds. You will have the prophet type that will tell the atheist that if he does not turn to God, he will go to hell. Now, that may sound pretty self-righteous but it is not. That is certainly what the Scripture teaches. How terrible would it be for a person to be in hell saying that no one ever told them hell was a consequence for those who did not believe. For some, just that might be the little nudge they need to get them to go ahead and submit to God. Others will be kind, gentle, patient and just coax people along. There are all types and all are needed in the body. You need all types. You need the Elijahs and Jonahs along with the others. However, it does not mean that the prophet loves any less than the others. He is just fulfilling the call of God on his life. No Christian should be self-righteous if they truly understand the Gospel. In the church you will have prophets. It is God's will. They are going to speak more harshly than what you desire.

Only God can speak to the atheists heart. You and I are not intelligent enough to know what will draw them. Only God knows and if it be His will, He will call that individual to Himself through all kinds of different people. You believe that it is God's will that all will come to Him. That may be true. That is a contextual debate. But, let's talk about being self-righteous. How do you define self-righteousness? You are concerned that someone might read our posts and think we are a bunch of self-righteous Christians. A self-righteous Christian is one that believe he or she has in someway earned their position with God and received that position because of a feeling of superiority to others. I do not get that from the vast majority of those on AAG. They may get that some are still somewhat arrogant or maybe a little proud. You may not like their personality type. That is not self-righteousness. Almost all here understand that their salvation has not in any  way been earned by themselves. They understand that their salvation is a gift from God and has not been earned. They are quick to give God the credit. I find that virtually exclusively here. However, you might find some that would say, "Either turn or burn." You may not like that but it is Scriptural. The Scripture says that whose name is not found in the Book of Life will be cast into the eternal lake of fire where they will be tortured day and night. That is information that I think the unbeliever needs to have. John also said:

Rev 20:15  If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire. NIV

John 3:36  Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him." NIV

This must be told even though we wish it didn't have to be said. You may have not liked my comments but they certainly were not of the self-righteous type. However, I have apologized for the offense and promised to try to do better with the exception that I do not want to compromise God's Word. I am probably one that will remind the folks of the above Scripture. The Scripture is true. All of us must examine ourselves to determine that we are truly in the faith and not into some kind of man-made religion which are many. We must be careful that we have not  bought into something made up by man. If God willed that every person be saved, every person would be saved. We could easily say that God wills that all who do not receive Christ will be cast into an eternal lake of fire. Our calling is to proclaim Christ. We are to proclaim that there is no other way for a person to be saved except through Christ. We are to proclaim that there are not many paths to God but only one. You cannot say that without someone saying your are self-righteous. That is just the nature of the human nature. They will always ask, "Who are you to say yours is the only way"?

We cannot get around that. They will say that the one speaking the truth is self-righteous. If we are not accused of being self-righteous, we are probably not doing our jobs.

Blessings.

Roy

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Permalink Reply by Seek on April 11, 2013 at 6:08am

How terrible would it be for a person to be in hell saying that no one ever told them hell was a consequence for those who did not believe.

Our church showed a video of an atheist speaking on just this thing.  This was from an atheist's point of view...

A man came up to him after a speech and gave him a Bible.  He was actually impressed, even though not believing in God, because as he said...

If you see someone crossing the street about to get hit by a bus and you don't warn them the bus is coming, then you didn't care enough for that person.  If you warn someone of hell, that means you stand behind what you believe and care enough to make sure you're informing the person of a danger.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on April 12, 2013 at 1:37am

Teach her Roy teach  her..... .. 

Wholehearted. If you are trying to teach your atheist sister that she can be saved after she dies .... isn't that adding words to scripture?   If an atheist were to ask you that if they were to believe in the Lord only after they passed away would they be saved.? What would you answer. I know you are talking to Roy... but as I mentioned before , I have an atheist son and I would never want him to be told such false info. I would much rather him be warned of the hell fire than be misled. 

Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 12, 2013 at 4:09am

Wholehearted,

I tried to approach you on the subject of baptism to get to where you were coming from. You did not bite. However, I have had experience using the subject of hell to get people to come out of their hidden places. You bit and exposed yourself.

You will probably be getting several answers with your post. However, if you truly are looking for help, you have come to the right place. I do not have time to explain that the righteous are granted eternal bliss while the unrighteous are given eternal damnation. Neither do I have the time this morning to explain what makes one righteous and one unrighteous. I do not have the time to explain that the righteous upon death are ushered into heaven as was Steven. Neither do I have time to explain how the unrighteous are reserved in hell until they are resurrected after the 1000 years. There is no escaping this place. The person in hell, however, will change locations at the conclusion of the 1000 years and be cast into the lake of fire.

Since I do not have the time, I will refer you to the following from gotquestions.org. The article is about why  the idea eternal damnation is so repulsive to many people. The address of the article is:

http://www.gotquestions.org/eternal-damnation.html

Please do not get angry and leave. I pray that all will be very kind but very open on the subject of hell. Perhaps there are others here that reject the idea of eternal damnation for the unbeliever once death happens. The idea of ultimate reconciliation has been around almost since the Gospel. However, it is off base. Or it may be that you believe in a place referred to as purgatory. Either way, AAG is a great place to find people to discuss that issue with you.

Please do not leave. Please give us a chance. I will say more tomorrow unless it is thoroughly covered today by others.

Let me reiterate. I do not believe I will go to heaven for my good works. I am not self-righteous. My righteousness is in Jesus and in Him alone. I am doing better as I get older but I still have many weaknesses to overcome. I need Jesus now as much as I have ever needed Him. My only hope is Jesus. I have no confidence in myself. There is no other hope for anyone. The only hope that any person could ever have is through Jesus and once this life is over, that opportunity is gone, gone, gone. As Abraham told the rich man in hell, you can't come here and I can't go there. It is impossible. There is no intermediate state with the exception for waiting for the day when death and hell are cast into the lake of fire.

If you want your sister to be saved, perhaps you should stop pampering her and get serious about God's Word. That is just food for thought. I do pray for your sister to be saved. If you would like we have a prayer room here on  AAG that prays for the lost as well as other needs. There are some of the most wonderful people in the world that pray on that site. They genuinely care for others. I would recommend it.

Blessings and please don't leave.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on April 12, 2013 at 4:33am

Wholehearted,

Scripture most definitely does teach that all sinners will go to hell if they die without Jesus as Saviour.  Here's an older discussion which I suggest you read through, it may be of some help.  I also suggest that you may want to start a completely new thread to address the topic to your personal satisfaction.  In the meantime, here are two old discussions from several years ago which may help:  http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/1383940:Topic:19168

http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/how-can-a-good-god-send-people

I wish I had more time to respond more, but I will check back in later.

 

By the way, Do you have a regular church which you attend?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on April 12, 2013 at 6:36am

Wholehearted,

 

We love you in Christ. I am praying for you. :)

 

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Seek on April 12, 2013 at 6:51am

Revelation 25:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

The only way your name is written in the lamb's book of life is by accepting Christ...THE lamb. 

Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 10, 2013 at 10:30am

Wholehearted, I'm going to hold you accountable for how you've treated Roy in this reply and I feel God has led me to do so. First, once again I point out respect. Roy is a very kind gentleman and even more than that, he is one of your elders. Second, there's nothing wrong with judging someone, which is what you are doing (and in a very accusatory manner I might add) But Jesus has warned "Do not judge, or you too will be judged" Matthew 7:1.

What I have discovered is that when I'm upset with someone, I need to pay close attention to what it is about that person that is upsetting me. I generally find that what is to my distaste in the other person is exactly the same characteristics I have -- only I have them worse! In psychology this is called projection and everyone -EVERYONE- does it. That's probably why Jesus gave us this warning.

Jesus also said something very interesting in Matthew 7:5 -- and it's probably why He said that, too!

It doesn't seem possible that you could be behaving in the same ways that you disdain in others, does it? But I hope that you will consider this word of admonition about judging and character attacking and I speak in love, telling you that I am guilty, too, and this is how we learn and grow and this is how we forbear patiently with one another and with the faults that we see in others. I apologize ahead of time for any hurt or offense you might take at receiving this admonition, but I won't apologize for the admonition, as I feel led to share this word with you, "Do not judge, or you too will be judged."

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on April 10, 2013 at 10:38am

Amanda im not siding with any body.... but when I read the part about "laughing at the students' it kinda triggered memory pains from teachers getting frustrated and angry at me for not understanding what they taught. One teacher once said to me quote "you are so stupid" unquote. Anyway, I think Roy is a nice person too. I think Whole Hearted may have just had a trigger herself.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on April 10, 2013 at 10:40am

Carla, interesting post. Thank you for having a heart for the atheist.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 10, 2013 at 10:59am

Janie, I understand triggers and how they occur but in no way was Roy stating that his students are too dumb to be taught as Wholehearted suggested. I understood his comment to be saying that he was laughing at himself, not at the students, because of the utter helplessness he felt when seeing their blank stares and wondering how he was going to help them be able to understand what he is trying to teach them. We sometimes get frustrated with ourselves when we can't help others "see" and this is the point I see Roy making as we witness to unbelievers. The faith is a gift from God. People don't just decide to get saved one day. We are saved by grace through faith, both are gifts, and faith is planted in the heart of someone, making the new birth possible. Only then can someone be born again. As Carla said, we keep them talking for as long as we can.

Sometimes in my math class, I will look out at the kids and get this blank look staring back at me. I begin to laugh and they say, "Why are you laughing"? After awhile as they keep listening, the concepts will dawn on them. The light comes on. Our prayer is that the light comes on in these hearts the things concerning God.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on April 10, 2013 at 12:30pm

Amanda, I understand that Roy wasn't being a jerk to his students.  When I reread his statement I understood it to mean that when they continue to listen to his teachings that students finally "understand" they get it. They no longer are starring blankly. I only piped in here out of reflex. I didn't feel led as you did.  I  was just saying I understand why Wholehearted may have reacted as she did.

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