Evil, Sin and Suffering: God's Sovereignty Implies What to YOU?

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Permalink Reply by Grazer #E2H on February 22, 2013 at 12:36pm

That article seems to have a set view on omnipotent and omniscience and interpreting scripture based on that view but I'm too tired to debate it right now

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 22, 2013 at 4:31pm

One thing I learned a long time ago in my work was that people will change when they see a reason to change. And that takes time. It's how God deals with us ... All of us. And although you and I disagree quite a bit, I know that you don't have to accept my POV. I want you to understand it but I know that understanding doesn't mean agreeing with. It means acknowledging where someone is coming from. 

So I can still stick to my own convictions, which do align with the article I posted, and by doing that I'm not shooting you down (just shooting down the opposing view) but will listen to your POV, if you decide to discuss it further, as much as I can and then give my view about those things and share the things that may still stop me from accepting the opposing view (the things that keep me from seeing a good enough reason to change.) 

But I know more than ever now that even when I disagree with someone, the most important message I can give the person is that even if I disapprove of many of their beliefs, I love them as Christ loves me. 

I just finished reading The Grace Awakening by Charles R. Swindoll and it has a chapter devoted to Graciously Disagreeing and Pressing On. God will do His work while I let others be themselves. I think walking in grace must be difficult because I haven't experienced too much of it in my life from others. But I have experienced it on this site. 

To me, things like God's omnipotence and other attributes, and believing in the first Adam as a real historical created figure (Romans 5:12-14) are all primary, and yet I know that many people are born again without understanding all of God's attributes and sometimes know nothing else about what's in the Bible except the Gospel of Christ. And that's why I'm trusting more than ever now, too, in Philippians 1:6. And I'm glad God hasn't forsaken me or the work He began in me.

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Permalink Reply by Grazer #E2H on February 23, 2013 at 1:26am

The thing is, there is no definition of those 2 words in the bible. Those 2 words don't even exist in the bible. So were both bringing in outside data to the bible. There's nothing wrong in that, you can't read the bible without doing so but if we have different data, were going to end up with different conclusions.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 23, 2013 at 3:21am

Those two words are not external as you are describing, but are used to encapsulate what is in the Bible. They are defined by the Word of God and are both God's attributes and sound doctrine. The Bible reveals that God is all-knowing and all-powerful.

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-omnipotent.html

http://www.gotquestions.org/God-omniscient.html

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 23, 2013 at 3:31pm

My argument is this (and likely a human argument but nevertheless):

If God isn’t omnipotent and omniscient, then God isn’t omnipresent either, for to be omnipresent God must be in the past, present, and future and must know the past, present, and future thoroughly. Even to choose not to know the future choices of people would mean that God isn’t omnipresent even if it is but only by choice. Yet, even in that sense, it would mean that God is waiting on us to make our choices and then God acts accordingly and we are the ones in control, not God.

However, the past, present, and future are creations of God, for God is eternal and yet God created time. Therefore, the future is just as knowable to God as the past and present are. We can read prophecies in Scripture where God has clearly ordained those future events. He has to be able to know the future to ordain those future events. We see in the writings in the OT that things prophesied there actually happened in the future following those prophecies, e.g. birth of Christ. Did God not fulfill those prophecies?

I’m using deductive reasoning here (perhaps even hypothetical).

Thus, to deny God’s omnipotence and omniscience is also to deny God’s omnipresence and that leaves us with a God that isn’t all-powerful, changes His mind, isn’t all-knowing, and isn’t in control, especially if knowledge is power (like they say).

In fictional literature, the Olympian gods interfered capriciously in the lives of people and their nature and attributes and relation to man are all so strange that the reader IMO can’t possibly take those gods seriously. They are gods that we would fear and also we laugh at and we blame and also admire them at the same time but could never really trust them or sincerely worship them.

I ask this in love and true sincerity and concern and I ask it of no one in particular but of everyone and anyone in general, how can we seriously worship the one true God, or any other god for that matter, if we deduce Him to such a level where God is not all-powerful, just, and the Creator of all things? How is that rational? How is that analysis of God something that anyone can arrive at even through hypothetical-deductive reasoning (which is how doctors arrive at a diagnosis for patients)? And if it's true of God, then what's the use?

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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on February 23, 2013 at 4:16pm

Amen Amanda.  

At times to me it appears many people try to understand God, and in doing so when information about God is presented to them, that they cannot explain it is then dismissed.  God opened man's mind to time.  At the same time however, He is not bound by times limitations.  There is no wisdom, neither intelligence, nor mind, like that of Lord Jehovah. Pro 21:30 Where is the wise person? Where is the scholar? Where is the philosopher of this age? God has turned the wisdom of the world into nonsense, hasn't he? 1Cor 1:20  For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness." 1Cor 3:19  

For the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God. As the Scriptures say, "He traps the wise in the snare of their own cleverness." 1Cor 3:19

So God has given both his promise and his oath. These two things are unchangeable because it is impossible for God to lie. Therefore, we who have fled to him for refuge can have great confidence as we hold to the hope that lies before us. Heb 6:18  To my understanding the only things God cannot do is lie.  As for me, I believe The Creator knows the skinny.  And to Amanda point, "...what's the use?"  How can man; how can clay, speak of what God can or cannot do?  Where does Wisdom come from?  What gives Hope it's Strength?  I hope what I have shared is to the point, if not forgive me I am only human.

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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on February 23, 2013 at 7:25pm

No, the wisdom we speak of is the mystery of God--his plan that was previously hidden, even though he made it for our ultimate glory before the world began. 1Cor 2:7  God clearly is in the Know.  He was there before there was, and will Be, long after what we see now.  The reason He knows the Plan is because, He Is The Plan.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 24, 2013 at 9:57am

Thank you, Chris, for sharing those Scriptures, and yes, they and you were to the point.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on March 12, 2013 at 5:24am

I don't know if God is the mystery or that we make Him the mystery. I have just come through nearly 3 months of experiencing God, His Will, His Soveriegnity and with truly wesome results. To relate all would be for most never to believe that I spoke the truth. What is that to me?

This relationship between God and myself is one that can be had by any and all people and their Lord. God held my hand all the way through these trials, and not only mine only, but every other person that i know involved in my illness and caregiving (receiving).

We don't have to be lumped all together in one ball of dough. We an pinch off different amounts and work with  it and still have much left over for the next object.  God has my back. He has yours as well. Do we want to argure with how much care he will give to each of us? I don;t because i already know exactly where He has my back simply by reading and studying His word. My eyes are being opened to God and many of His mysteries but they are bring opened by also about the beautiful things I am learning about Him and growing relatioship.

 

Blessings to you all as you growing in the saving knowledge of God's Grace....

Rita

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