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Church Division
James 4 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you? 2 You desire but do not have, so you kill. You covet but you cannot get what you want, so you quarrel and fight. You do not have because you do not ask God. 3 When you ask, you do not receive, because you ask with wrong motives, that you may spend what you get on your pleasures.
I'm trying to review this verse in light of some issues that have been ongoing in my church and some conversations I have had with some members and so I'd like some input on some questions.
A bit of background is that our pastor is trying to build our church, attract younger members. Before he came, we were a dead church of about 40 to 60 members, lifeless, doing no good in the community, but helping one another, visiting each other in the hospitals, etc. So this goes to something I mentioned elsewhere about where's the love in the church.
Yet now we are a church of about 250 to 300 members, doing coat drives to give coats the poor, operating a food pantry and feeding local families, doing community projects meant to bring awareness of our church and food pantry to the community and reach the lost.
So, is there a happy medium? Now some in the church are feeling no love because we're focusing so much on the community and yet the community didn't know we existed and got NOTHING from us previously.
It is becoming a battle of over 60 vs. under 60 basically. So here are some complaints.
- No one visits at the hospitals. Yet the leadership designed Lifegroups so that we break out of the large church setting and get into smaller groups where we can make closer ties with a smaller portion of the membership, pray for one another and go and visit one another in our times of need. Yet many don't join Lifegroups. Out of a 250-300 membership, perhaps 60 - 100 attend regular Lifegroup sessions.
- Disrespect. There is a clash of wills going on. You have the younger people who like their loud music. They carry coffee into the sanctuary and hide it under the pew to get awake in the morning. The older crowd who says the loud music hurts their ears and they think coffee in the sanctuary is disrespectful to God. Yet the younger folks are typically the ones cleaning up the sanctuary and spending massive hours there working on the sound system, setting up and tearing down chairs for events, building and designing sets for Bible School and so on.
Currently we have 3 Lifegroups going on simultaneously on Sunday night. Two are Bible studies, where most are over 60. One of them are the older generation type and they feel the loud video playing in the gym for the Zumba class is disrespectful to the ones in the non-soundproofed classrooms holding a Bible study. If they go to the sanctuary to hold it, they won't have tables to put their books on and they can't have their snacks. If they stay where they are, 31 people in the gym for Zumba and volleball need to figure out how to exercise and play a game without noise. I attribute part to a poorly designed church building, yet what can be done? Perhaps hold Zumba and volleyball on another night and yet their are other functions the gym is used for those nights.
Now there is also a second Lifegroup, also over 60, with only 3 to 5 members, and I've heard no complaints from them. Those are the younger at heart elderly people who always have a smile and seem to get along with the younger crowd.
So IS there some happy medium? Is this a church that has stopped walking in love or a difference in generational cultures? Is it disrespect from the young, complaining from the elderly or a mixture of the two? There should be unity in the church and if there is not, what can be done other than find another church. But if you like that church and the people there, and yet you seem assaulted from both sides about it, what do you do?
I've had several elderly people bring up to me the absence of chairs in the atrium. They feel that's disrespectful, that old people can't walk that far without sitting down to rest. Ummm, they walk from their car to the doctor's office? So I'm told, but someone would help them in...I've not seen that happen at a doctor's office, and yet our greeters at the church help them into the church. I've been pecked and asked to ask people beside me to take their coffee cups out of the sanctuary. Pecked during worship and asked to tell someone to stop talking. Been told that we're being disrespectful and disruptive of the classes with the Zumba and volleyball. I am enjoying those yet I am not the leader of those and do not control the volume, though I did pass it along to the one who does that we might need to keep the volume down. I feel sometimes I want to erect a wall around me at church so that no one can peck me and disrupt my worship or offer a complaint...and then wonder where my negativity stems from. Isn't that negativity as well?
Anyone see the solutions? What goes on in your churches? How do you combine youth and elderly in unity? And if you have no control over it, how do you respond to those bringing it at you constantly? How do you not feel bad trying to enjoy Zumba and volleyball with a group of church family having just gone through a 5 minute devotional and prayer, and worry whether or not you're disturbing another hour long class?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by ribbon on
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Im not a church goer, but the last few months I have been missing it. Im thinking now Im glad I dont go to church. I would be like the complained about old people. When I did go to church the bible study was one of my favorite things to do. If I was going but couldnt hear or focus on the study... I would think to my old self .WHY GO if i cant hear or focus on the word of God. I wouldnt complain to anyone I would just not go. I think its great for church folks wanting to draw the youth to church. Entertaining is good too but is the entertainment drawing the people to God or just the church? Whats wrong with wondering why some people dont have respect anymore. My friend talked me into going to a get together the other day. I went knowing i could possibly have a panic attack but i wanted to try. While there i kinda hid back and peeked around the corner while my friend visited. I saw some old people stand up clearly needing to sit down. they couldnt because the youth were sitting in the chairs and even laying down on the couches. Not one of the youth asked any elderly if they would like to sit down. To me that is disrespectful. I dont think by me saying that makes me an old nag. If yor church has so many people cant yall raise money somehow and rent a nearby building for the loud games? My mind is blankimg i think i havent even wrote what i was first thinking.... ... Oh no i am an old prude..... I will try to refocus and come back.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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LOL Janie...
If they used money to rent, someone would complain about the wasted money. Seems there's always complainers. And there's two sides to everything too, which is where I get stuck. I don't find it disrespectful to hide a cup under the pew when you've had 3 hours of sleep and want to attend the service. You're not flaunting it and not doing it just to be disrespectful. Disrespect comes from our reasons. For example...I was always taught to NEVER lay anything on top of the Bible. And there've been a few times, I've had paperwork or something fall over onto it and I go out of my way to remove it, feeling condemnation over it. Wasn't like I purposely laid something on there, but it was so taught as being disrespectful, it's come to the point it caused me to lose any and all respect for myself basically. I was taught that about anything was disrespectful.
Some of our youth are just like those you describe and some however, go out of their way to carry chairs in for people to sit on. They will get the padded chairs from one room and take them to another just so seniors can hold a class in the comfortable wing backs. And then they take them back to their original room after. The church is in some transition, they're redecorating, growing and people have daytime jobs to boot. Leadership is there all weekend, most evenings, and still many of them hold down full-time jobs. But the transitioning isn't fast enough to appease everyone. They're hoping to put chairs (to match the incoming newer decor) back into the atrium at some point, but right now, they've used them for classrooms.
So I'm trying to figure out if this is all really disrespect or if it's just how I was taught respect.
They do need to come up with some kind of alternatives though so that the Bible studies and the zumba and volleyball can all be held. Our church always talks about having a relationship with Jesus and they do try to draw in the young and teach them about Jesus with the idea that it is JESUS who changes them, makes them more respectful, teaches them to dress more appropriately, etc.
I do know our pastor started a church in MO and built it up large and he's working on building this one. But in the building process, toes seem to get stepped on. I guess I just need a pat line to say whenever anyone brings up a complaint, before it leaves their mouth completely, one that won't offend them further when they're already in rant mode.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I see nothing wrong with bringing them in church as you said Janie. Where better to get them to so the kingdom can be taught to them? They're not going to learn it in the streets. I do see what you're saying as far as their focus can't be 100% on the Bible study.
Char, since you're transitioning, your church will eventually get there & meet the needs of them all. I feel almost sure of this. In the meantime, hang in there because it's better to go then to sit at home & watch Benny Hinn. Wonder if anyone really watches him?
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I couldn't sit home. I need to be in church, I need that so much. But some of our members have migrated to two other larger local churches and I've just had some moments lately I wonder if this is a place where you simply hold on and wait or what.
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First of all, I sit on the front row - always - no matter where I go. I like to be spit on by the preacher & closer to the altar. Not many people are going to sit beside you & pester you there & you can eat up the worship, get the music loud & in your face & get your feet stomped on by the message. Complainers are going to be there no matter the age though the older crowds seem to be the worse. I haven't been to a church in years that had the older generation though I am almost in that class. I'll be the cool older crowd though. I love it loud & hard. I love when others are being fed even if it's thru exercising, volleyball or Bible study. If they didn't complain about the noise they would find something else to complain about. As far as going to visit people in the hospitals, are the people that are complaining ever going to visit them? I use to think drinking in the sanctuary was disrespectful as well but that's because I grew up with that. You didn't run in church. You wore dresses. Needless to say, I take my Coke now, wear my blue jeans & would run if I didn't have on 6" heels. The huge churches here also have coffee houses, doughnuts & book stores. It's like a mini-mall. Not sure how I feel about all of that but am not saying it's wrong. I've just never experienced church like it. They preach the word, they good with me.
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lolololololol i dont think i would like the spit. Maybe complain a little and get the preacher to wear a surgeons mask. Ok yall I am in my 50s and when i went to church I never complained "out loud" about anything at church. I think I am only posting because of me being older than I feel and I feel like defending myself. My son was in band and he was always practicing something... mostly on his drums. We lived in a very small house so i was used to loud. I worked in a loud invirement... my vehicle was a old clunker and loud... so ;oud that people i worked with told me they could hear me coming a mile away. I remember praying to God sometimes for a little bit of quiet. Back to me not ever complaining and old people being the number 1 complainers. I think the older you get the more you are blunt and open with your thoughts. I almost would bet that some of the ypinger folks do their belly aching at home . ... I am still not remembering what i started out to write...... Maybe i cant remember so to not get in trouble? I know it had to do with what you wrote Seek Ye First
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Janie, they're not complaining "out loud" in my church either. But the undertone is causing this undercurrent of dissention. Just murmuring behind the scenes. Makes me uncomfortable.
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Oh ok I see... Im slow in comprehending Char so please forgive me. When i said i didnt complain out loud; I also didnt complain to anybody either. Maybe they peck on your shoulder to complain because they trust you and know their complaints arent going to go any further to other members at church. Maybe tell these complainers that it is causing you stress. Politely say that it bothers you. Im really lonely today or i wouldnt be out here. I hope i havent made you even mre uncomfortable.
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You're not making me uncomfortable Janie. I'm lonely and bored too. Sitting alone at work and listening to sermons...only one here today. Too much time on my hands and my thoughts are wanting to run away wild today. :-(
But I don't think that is the reason. One of the people who poked me...I didn't even know! And the other, I almost feel like she gets delight out of it. But trust me? I have to then go and unload because it does stress/bother me. I just don't know how to unload or not let it bother me. But they shouldn't trust me, cause sometimes I feel I'm about to go postal on em. LOL
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Janie, u a trip. I'm 49 so girl, you're not old. I have an '82 Vette that you can hear a mile away & I love it. I play the music higher then the motor in that thing. I was on the praise team for years & love the drums & bass hitting it hard. I also have 3 boys - 11 year old & 10 year old twins. All 3 are only 11 months apart so I basically have triplets so quiet is not in my home. I actually have 6 kids but those are the crazy ones I have left.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Char,
We talked a little about the "love aspect" on another forum and I will not go back there today. I will say that the rest of what you are describing is mostly about preferences. The things you have mentioned in of themselves are not necessarily wrong, but different people have different preferences. Some like it loud and some low volume. Some like a "holy" sanctuary and some a wide-open santuary, etc ... Your church is growing and that means it is changing. People always talk about the four-letter words, but there is a very bad (for some people) six-letter word called "CHANGE." Whenever a church grows and goes through change you almost always will have some digruntled people who will leave and go to another church and love Jesus there in an enviroment that fits them. So, in some cases neither are wrong ... they just have different preferences.
The question for you to ponder is "What are your preferences?"
For clarity and then I will shut up (or quite typing). There is a great difference between preference and key essentials. I know you know this, but there is a larger audience that will read these comments. We cannot ever compromise the essentials, but preferences are all about choice.
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The question for you to ponder is "What are your preferences?"
That's a hard question. My preferences would be that we find a happy medium, but then I ask...is that possible? If we managed to tone down the zumba and volleyball, would people still complain? If we found them other classrooms away from the noise, would the seating be an issue? I know that's an issue I have. I want to please everyone sometimes and sometimes I don't care if I please anyone. It's a hard place to be. I don't want the elders to feel disrespected, but I personally enjoy the volleyball and zumba, I like the new music AND the old music. I'm open to new things.
When Steph left the praise team, I didn't care as much for Becky, but she grew on me. When Becky stepped down, I almost cringed at Matt's style, but he's grown on me. I stuck it out and dealt with it and now I like his music. But I don't want our older people running because it is hard to change when we've been one way for so long. I'm always hoping for a happy medium. And no I'm not talking medium as in sorcery. LOL
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