CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 3, 2013 at 2:26am

We can all be sure that God has everything under control. Sometimes I get to feeling that everything is out of control and that there is not a thing we can do about it. That is wrong thinking. Our Father is in control. We should continue to preach the Gospel with the complete confidence that all who call upon Jesus will be saved. When it comes to people getting saved, our theology is not what is important. What is important is that the people hear the Gospel that Jesus came to die for our sins and that faith in Him will bring us forgiveness and life. I am very grateful to Christ for my salvation.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 3, 2013 at 9:44am

Roy, I used to be a five point Arminian. I no longer believe in conditional salvation -- that a believer can use their freewill to turn from Christ after being born again and lose salvation. I still see that people have a limited choice as far as being able to choose God but only after God has first chosen to enlighten the individual and draw the individual to Christ and Christ reveals God to the individual. The ministry on earth of Jesus was about Jesus revealing the Father to mankind and many walked away from Jesus. I think many returned after the resurrection.

In Acts 15 we learn that some believers belonged to the party of the Pharisees but in the four gospels we see Jesus pronouncing woes against the scribes and Pharisees -- so there was a turn around as far as belief in Jesus goes for some who rejected Him before He died … but as far as knowing whether their belief was fully trusting in Him as Savior, I don’t know. It seems like they had a difficult time separating from the customs and laws in the OT for salvation to trusting in the work of Christ alone for salvation.

I know God is Sovereign and I know that even when humanity uses their own will to disobey God, it is somehow, in someway, a manifestation of God’s Sovereign will. Sometimes I feel like man has unrestricted freewill, when I look at all the horrible things that happen on earth and it feels like God doesn’t intervene at all sometimes. I struggle there in that area. It also seems that many people resist God. Can they resist being saved? I believe a true believer can’t fall away. It would mean they never truly believed. Why do some believe while others don’t? Is it because some are given the ability to believe while others aren’t? I’d like to think God makes it possible for all to believe … and yet I know many have died through the ages never hearing the gospel or knowing anything about Jesus.

In my life, I look back and I know I never chose God first. What I see is God making Himself known to me in many, many ways. I see myself resisting but being overcome by truth and unable to deny that truth. All around me, God has placed people speaking His truth. I don't understand why He cares about me that much but ...

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 3, 2013 at 3:39pm

Amanda,

The important thing for us to remember is that whatever God does, it is right. I believe we will understand that in the future. We so desire to make God work within the framework of our thinking. We know that no man or angel can operate outside the will, plan or purpose of God. His ways are not our ways. He does things that are difficult for us to grasp. Sometimes when He acts, it seems to us innocent people are destroyed. He is not a wimpy God. When He acts, things happen. I think God has a right to take any of us out. He has a right to judge this nation. How can man take something as sacred as creation and give credit to the creation rather than the Creator. God made natural law and then man turns around and worships that rather than the Creator. I think we all are living on borrowed time. He is right in everything He does. No one is His equal. No one can claim knowledge of Him. Only He that has been with Him knows Him and He came to save the lost. However He does that is okay with me. I am so grateful for my salvation. Sometimes I think we take our God for granted.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 8:38pm

LT,

I guess my answer to the question concerning the angels is that the angels cannot affect God's plan and purpose which He has decreed from the foundation of the earth. As I mentioned, angels must very definitely been a part of the plan of God. I do not believe He was surprised or taken back at all when they rebelled.

I don't see how we can use the existence and experience of angels to explain the salvation of mankind. I don't know about the fall of angels but that fall is certainly involved in His plan with mankind. The devil has his part to play in the grand scheme. The devil will not win. He wants to win. He strives to win. He wills to win. But, he will not win. The devil's plan is overcome by the plan and purpose of God. King Herod and Pontius Pilate also had a plan but their plan was vetoed as God's foreordained plan went into affect. They could only do that which God had predetermined that they would do.

Does man choose to believe or is it that some do believe and some do not? The instruction we are given is to believe in Him and we will receive eternal life. The question we have is whether or not a person can choose to believe. I tend to think that man either believes or he does not believe. I think if a man does believe it was predetermined that he would believe. I guess I just don't think man has that ability within himself. Prevenient grace comes close for me but I wonder if that is the way that it works.

It is a good discussion.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 3, 2013 at 5:18am

Roy,

I need to reitterate a key component of my position. I believe that God is absolute sovereign and unthreatened by any of His creation. I believe that He has given man liberties (not freewill) as part of His plan. That our liberties cannot messup the overarching plan of God. What God has said will come to pass will indeed come to pass and no one or thing can stop or alter that plan. God has the right to override our liberties at any given time as the sovereign God of the universe. Satan has only constituted authority, he is limited and can only do so much because God rules over him as our sovereign God.

 

I think one of the keys regarding believing is examining the root word in the Greek. Take John 3:16 for instance. The Greek word is "Pisteuo." This word does not simply mean to believe that something is true, as in "I believe that Abraham Lincoln lived and was once president of the United States." Pisteuo carries with it the idea of trusting in. Thus, a trust in God is different than a belief in God. Many believe He is real, but how many really trust Him? How many trust Him for salvation? Or for provision? Or for protection? Now to be fair I have to look at James 1:19 which also uses "pisteuo." In context we can understand that the devils do have a belief that God is real and "now" have a trust that God is more powerful than them as they have already rebeled, lost and have been tossed out of heaven. Now they tremble, exhibit fear of Him. Another example is found in John 14:1. Here we find Jesus talking to His disciples telling them to "believe" (NIV84 uses the word "trust") in me. Is he commanding them to trust Him or calling them to trust Him? They already believe He exists and Peter has already proclaimed Him the Christ. We can know that the words in John 14 come after Peter's profession due to the fact that his profession regarding Jesus being the Christ (Matthew 16; Mark 8) took place prior to the triumphant entry and John 14 took place after. We also know that John 14's focus is salvation and uses the imagery relating to a wedding.

 

It is a good discussion with a lot to think about regardless of where one finds themself ont he issue.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 3, 2013 at 9:01am

Yes, I agree. Believing in seems to be taking another step than just believing that He exists.

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 3, 2013 at 11:59am

LT,

You've stated an important biblical truth: Faith is far deeper than simply believing that God exists.  Faith isn't just what we believe about God. It's more than just assenting to, or agreeing with, a set of propositions about God.  

Faith isn't passive.  Faith, by its very nature, will change how we live.  It's the fusion of belief and action.  It's a relationship with God that's active, persistent, and lived out tangibly in the world. 

Faith, hope and love are God's gifts to us.  Our faith is grounded in God's choice of us.   He awakens us to a new life by grace.  I didn't experience a sudden moment of conversion as a response to an altar call or saying the "sinner's prayer."   At least in my experience, his grace does not run over us like a bulldozer, or turn us into lifeless puppets dangling from strings of an unseen and unknown puppeteer.  What actually happened was God laid hold of me in ways I could not fully comprehend. 

And that continues to happen. God continues to work on me in ways that are beyond my comprehension.  All I know is that God has laid a claim on me and constrained me in ways that shape how I see my life and the world.  My choices then are directly influenced by my desire to love God with all my heart, mind, soul, and strength.  So how free am I really to choose some other life for myself?  My hunch is that I am less free to choose than I might care to admit.

Colby

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 3, 2013 at 1:41pm

Colby,

You said, "My hunch is that I am less free to choose than I might care to admit."

I agree. It does leave one wondering, but we also can be very content in that whether we ever figure out the how we know the Who behind it all.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on February 1, 2013 at 8:49pm

Whew..........

You guys are great......and thanks for joining in, L.T..

 

Roy, I really appreciate your testimony concerning your conversion. I don't feel like the lone ranger anymore.

My wife and I were talking about this very subject today. She came forward as a teen-ager at church camp, about

#^&*<*>&% years ago. She said she felt saved with the Holy Spirit right after coming up out of the water. Might be interesting to hear some other testimonies.........

 

I still don't know when it happened with me after I came forward......but it was some years later. I have no doubt of the in-dwelling Holy Spirit in my heart now......and He will continue to be there for the rest of my physical life. But I still cannot state exactly when He took up residence in me.

Colby, ever since my coming forward, confession, and baptism, I believe I've been in a period of sanctification ( separated unto God, and becoming holy) as part of my redemption. Roy, could you agree with something like that? And, I believe it continues for one's life time.

 

Seems to me that to explain the apostle Paul's advice (with the Holy Spirit breathing on him) in Philippians 2:12-13, "...........work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; (13) for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure."

Does that mean that we're trying to "work our way to heaven"?  NO,NO, a thousand times No!

It means to be following  instructions in Galatians 5:16-18, " I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. (17) For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. (18) But, if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law." (NKJV).

With the above passage in mind, I would compare it to the beginning of Hebrews Chapter 12..... of laying aside that old baggage of all our sinful nature, so we can run the race that God has set before us. And we cannot do it in a day or two........

 

So, with all the excellent posts from you brothers on this matter........it seems to me that we might have drawn somewhat closer than before.....if that's true, don't tell David V.. We'll tell him when we all get to heaven........

 

A full measure of Grace and Peace through our Lord and Savior........

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 6:21am

Richard,

I have a feeling that David V is watching. haha

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on February 2, 2013 at 7:45pm

Roy,

I can't resist.........because he's been so quiet, either he's on a vacation to Tibet (where there aren't any computers around......or his sweet wife has got him tied to a chair away from their computer.

 

Good to see  Amanda joining in on this subject.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 8:41pm

I think he will intervene when I get in over my head.

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