CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 1, 2013 at 3:18am

Colby,

Are you up this late or up this early? haha

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 1, 2013 at 9:22am

RoyW,

It's a matter of perspective, isn't it?  Late for you and early for me, or early for you and late for me.  Somewhere around the world as people are waking up to the morning sun, others on the other side are going to sleep under a dark sky.  :)

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 1, 2013 at 10:52am

Greetings all,

 

I have been following this discussion and am pleased at the good nature of this usually contentious subject. I could not resist joining in and I would like to add my two-cents. I see a number of similarities in Roy’s path and mine. I do not like labels but understand the necessity of them at times. I began my journey primarily aligned with the Arminian view. I believed we sought out God, had to choose Him and that we could lose our salvation. I have almost completely flipped from that position to that of a Calvinist, but not quite. I will keep this short :-)

 

I believe that Scripture teaches us that God does all of it, but leaves one piece in our hands (not a work, but a response to His work). He does the wooing, drawing us to the Son. We do not set out looking for God until He sets out to find us. He does the revealing of Himself (including Father and Son) over a period of time (Mark 8:21-28). Thus, I believe that it is God who brings us through the repentance (change of mind) process, not just a moment in time. Here is where I break from Calvinism. I believe that God then gives us, by His sovereign will, the liberty to choose Jesus (light) or reject Him and thus choose darkness over light (John 3 as a whole and especially 14-21 and v.36). Therefore, for me I acknowledge God as sovereign in all things and in His sovereign power and authority allows man to choose light or darkness once He has revealed Himself to us. I must add that not all will be brought to the point of decision and this is a very unpopular doctrine, the doctrine of The Lostness of Man.

 

Where I am today on this subject: Salvation is all by a the work, power, love and choosing of our sovereign God. In His sovereignty He gives us the liberty t choose or reject once we have been exposed to the light. When we choose Jesus (because of the work of God leading us to this point) we experience transformation that is irrevocable. Thus I believe in the eternal security of the child of God because it rests in the hands of God.

 

Anyway, this is my bare-bones take and some of it is not a hill for me to die on for some of the reasons pointed out earlier in this discussion that I will not bore you with by reiterating them.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 6:19am

LT,

What I get from what you have posted is that salvation is mostly an act of God but does require an act of man. I would see this just a little differently. Let us suppose for a moment that it is up to man to choose the Lord once he has been exposed to the light. My question is this: what is he choosing and how can he choose?

I think this is similar to a term called prevenient grace which is an adopted Arminian response to Calvinism. I think most adhere to a Wesleyan Arminian version of this which seems to place man in a state where he is able to choose or reject the Gospel. However, the work is still a complete work of God with man either accepting or rejecting that work. I think if this had been presented to me in my earlier life this is where I would probably be today. Even though I was in a denominational church that did seem to accept most of this, I was almost taught (and that is what I got) a works-based salvation. I grew up in a very strict Pentecostal church.

The term "prevenient grace" is a different response than the concept of irresistible grace. This doctrine states that a person can actually resist the call of the Gospel. There are many discussions that could be developed on this subject. This is the concept that I was presented when I  joined the Wesleyan church. I did consider this.

For me the question remains with the concept of faith presented us in Eph 2:8. Verse 9 tells me it is a gift of God and not of myself. The concept from prevenient grace here would be that I would be given enough faith to believe and thus be saved or just enough that I could resist it. I would come under the camp that would say that once a person reaches that point, he has gone too far or been taken too far. My position would be that at this point He is irresistible. This position does make it all of man and nothing of me. The faith necessary for salvation is a free gift. I think this is the point that Richard might be calling sanctification. If so, I would agree.

My experience (which should never be the final say of our faith) does indicate to me this is the way it was with me. I heard the call and in many ways attempted to respond to the call but could not. I remained blinded to God's irresistible grace. I remained blinded to His overwhelming love.

Once the light shone through and I was exposed to this love, I could have never resisted. I'm not sure that everyone is given that kind of exposure to His love. I think those that do, do respond to Him in faith. Now, I was relentless in my pursuit of Him but there was nothing I could do until His light came through. If the concept of prevenient grace is true, it came years before the actual time of knowing Him.

I have had the privilege of leading some to Jesus. I remember one case where a young father had become drunk and actually shot a guy in his chest. He was out on bail and waiting on his court date. The victim survived the shooting. The shooter was tired of his sinful life and was ready to be saved. Yet, he felt his sin was too great and he could not be saved. I watched him down on his knees begging God for forgiveness but unable to grasp the idea of forgiveness and could not be saved. I did not want this person to go through many years of hopelessness as I had. I reasoned with him talking about the sins of King David and such. I prayed asking God for help in the situation. I suggested to this person that he was calling God a liar. I told him that God promised to forgive His sins but he was responding that God would not forgive him. Eventually, the dawn came unto him. I witnessed the exact moment the light dawned upon him. His face lit up instantly. He knew he was forgiven. I realized that words from a man through reason could not do the job. The Holy Spirit must breathe life into that individual. True, I was giving the call of the Gospel but it took a spiritual awakening for the job to get done. 

We are told in Scripture that whoever believes shall be saved and those that do not believe are damned. My question is: how does a person choose to believe? How does man sort through all that is necessary unto salvation. I believe it is beyond him. Once man realizes how sinful he really is, this gift of faith must be given him. Without that, he is helpless. He is hopelessly lost. Unless God saves, he cannot be saved. Most are saved through teaching. The light dawns upon them and they are saved. Some, however, come to Him through a different road. I am one of those.

At the point of exposure to His love - the light shining into a person's heart - it is a done deal. That person will receive Christ. It is impossible for us to know exactly what is happening. Once that light shines upon us, His love becomes irresistible. That person stops seeing God as the judge of all mankind and begins to see Him as his Heavenly Father. He is home. His hopeless is ended.

I realize this is a little jumbled. Maybe I will get it all straightened up later. haha

Let me take us back to John 6. What is amazing to me is that they saw that great miracle of the five loaves and two fish and yet still some did not believe. They followed Jesus to the other side of the lake and asked for another sign.

Jn 6:30-31
So they asked him, "What miraculous sign then will you give that we may see it and believe you? What will you do? 31 Our forefathers ate the manna in the desert; as it is written: 'He gave them bread from heaven to eat.'

Jn 6:35-36
Then Jesus declared, "I am the bread of life. He who comes to me will never go hungry, and he who believes in me will never be thirsty. 36 But as I told you, you have seen me and still you do not believe. NIV

Was it their choice not to believe? Did they later come to faith and thus be saved. These all seem like great candidates for salvation but left at least for that day unsaved. Believing is the key. The answer here at least seems to be that unless the Father enables them they cannot believe.

But then He concludes:

Jn 6:40  For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day. NIV

That brings me back to the same question: how does God choose?

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 9:17am

By the way, I will be the first to admit that John 6 is a very complicated chapter to understand and needs to be interpreted in light of the rest of Scripture. Even then, we will most likely come to different conclusions.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 2, 2013 at 10:43am

Roy,

Satan and the demons new the reality of God and His greatness, and thus had a form of belief (James 2:19), and yet chose to rebel ... they chose darkness over light. I restate that I believe the work of salvation is all of God and in that work He gives us the liberty to accept or reject Him once He has revealed Himself to us. This is about light shinning into our lives that we see the truth, but are not regenerated at this point. Man can choose to embrace God or embrace sin, run to God or run from God once He has revealed Himself to us that He is God. There is more to be saved, as you know, than knowing that God really does exist and that Jesus died on the cross for the sin of man.

 

This begs the question of what keeps us from falling once we are saved, since Satan and the fallen angels rebelled. Scripture does not give us total understanding into the angels and their position etc, but we know that at salvation we are transformed, sealed and indwelt by the Holy Spirit.

 

So, as I ramble here, I guess part of your point is that one could not see God and have the ability to reject because of irresistable grace, but yet the angels who existed with God fell. Any thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 2, 2013 at 10:50am

I just have a crazy question here concerning the angels who fell and the others who didn't. Jesus did not die for the fallen angels and there is no redemption provided for them at all. We will one day be glorified and made so that we are no longer able to sin, in my understanding. Yet, the angels who have not fallen, are they still able to sin? But the answer to that question opens the door to more questions, such as, if the angels in heaven are still able to choose to sin, then how can this whole thing not happen over again? Or has God made the angels in heaven unable now to do what Satan did, rebel?

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 2, 2013 at 10:54am

To my knowledge the Bible does not answer the thrust of your question and thus we would be left only with speculation.

 

What we can know with some certainty is that they are created beings who exercised their liberty at that time after having been in the presence of God for an undetermined amount of time.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 11:05am

Amanda,

Here is a thought but certainly not an answer. If we are predestined before the foundation of the earth, would not God have had that in mind when He created the angels? If so, knowing the third would fall, would that not have fit in perfectly with His plan and thus the creation of the angels? It does seem that relationship with mankind is His ultimate goal and the devil and his angels seem to fit in with that plan. We have some angels that aid all those destined for His family and some that oppose the same. If this was part of His purpose, I would guess that there would be no more that fell. It appears the work is almost finished and soon His entire family will be with Him in eternal glory.

As LT says, there really can only be only speculation on this and you could probably get as many answers as their are Christian speculators. haha

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 2, 2013 at 11:21am

True.  Beyond the fact that some angels did fall (rebel against God), the Bible is silent about whether or not angels can still fall, leaving it a matter for speculation.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 2, 2013 at 2:07pm

Roy,
I have a few problems regarding predestination. First, I might as well put forth this question, too. We know that Adam and Eve were created innocent and not created with a sin nature. Therefore, the angels were created innocent as well and Lucifer was perfect until he sinned. After Adam and Eve sinned, all humanity was born with a sin nature. All the angels already existed, to my knowledge. Nevertheless, would it mean that angels have a sin nature, too, now? Or would they still be innocent creations? If they continue to be innocent but able to sin, then it can not be predestination as Calvinism describes predestination, can it, since they are able to choose sin? But if predestination means that God foreknew which ones would choose to fall even before any one of them were created, then we must agree with freewill, or at least the view that a being, whether angel or human, has liberty to choose light over darkness.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 2, 2013 at 8:09pm

Amanda,

Predestination is a very important part of our faith in God. I think the problem you have is the concept that God predestined some to salvation and some to hell. I do not agree with that concept either.

As far as man and angels, they are different. Angels do not reproduce and would not have a sin nature passed down to them. Why a third of them rebelled I do not know. Yes, I do believe that those who did not fall are completely innocent of the sin of pride.

I do not believe Calvinism has a position on the predestination of angels. Again, it is conjecture. However, to deny predestination would be to deny Scripture. There are some things that God leaves up to the will of man but there are those things that He has predestined that are surely going to come to pass. For who has instructed the mind of the Lord. He has made certain promises to those who are heirs of those promises and guarantees their fulfillment. That can not be possible unless He predestines certain things to happen according to the purpose of His will and plan. Angels cannot change or alter His purpose and plans. Neither can the will of man. All that God has promised will come about because He has predestined those things to be. Some might say that God just knows ahead of time what is going to happen and thus gives us knowledge of future events and that is partly correct since His foreknowledge is certainly established in Scripture as well. But there are things that God has predetermined that are going to happen.

Isa 46:10-11
10 I make known the end from the beginning,
from ancient times, what is still to come.
I say: My purpose will stand,
and I will do all that I please.
11 From the east I summon a bird of prey;
from a far-off land, a man to fulfill my purpose.
What I have said, that will I bring about;
what I have planned, that will I do. NIV

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 8
• Next ›
• Page