CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Colby on January 29, 2013 at 4:21pm

Roy,

        I understand your sentiments completely.  I think we can become lost in the weeds or the corn fields delving into the details of the Arminian and Calvinist positions concerning salvation and working through their logical implications.  I think where they're closest is on the first point of Calvinism, the T for "Total Depravity."  Sometimes the arguments between both sides becomes a shouting mouth, a kind of Bible ping pong in which each side lobs Bible verses that support their point of view at the other.  In the end, no minds are changed.  That kind of discussion ends up being counterproductive and pits Christians against each other.

        Kept as a high level or broad brush survey, though, it's a fascinating discussion for me.  Some of the five points of each are easier to understand than others.  Some, on closer scrutiny, are so deep, so complex and so intricate that I am left baffled.  I do not have a seminary school education.  

        For example, in the Calvinist camp, there are those that identify as Sublapsarian, Infralapsarian or Supralapsarian.  I haven't even waded into these differences yet.  Getting into the thick of things can be be like speculating about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.  You can go round and round in circles.  Which is why we should focus on the main and plain things and the essentials that define a saving faith.  For example, salvation by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.  That the God of the Bible is the one and only true and living God, and the creator of all things.

Richard,

if you can find a way to harmonize and blend these two systems into "Calminianism," and in such a way that what results holds together under scrutiny, by all means post it here.  I applaud you for being open to looking at both systems and not being beholden to one.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 30, 2013 at 4:31am

Colby,

For some, these are important. They are not all that important to me. I do not see how we could possible know those things. It would take a much greater mind than mine to figure all of that out. If God has elected some and not others, I do not know that basis of His choosing. At one point He says He chooses the weak to confound the wise. That is my position:

1 Co 1:27-31
27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 He chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things — and the things that are not — to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God — that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.   31 Therefore, as it is written: "Let him who boasts boast in the Lord." NIV

We are very fortunate to be born in a land that allows the Gospel to be preached. Some are not and will not be saved. The Gospel has captured my heart. I cannot understand why all mankind has not received this wonderful free gift of salvation. Why some believe and others don't remains a mystery to me. Yet, to all who believe, He saves them from their sins. That is what I know for sure.

Our problem with election and eventually predestination is that it doesn't seem fair. I am confident that whatever God does is right and fair. God's power and knowledge is so extensive. When He judges, even the unborn are judged. When God sends judgment all are affected regardless of age. None of that seems fair but because of predestination, it is fair.

To be Arminian, one must believe that some will choose God and others will not. I cannot go that far. For me that does not answer the questions that dwell within. I can understand from Scripture why Calvin came to the conclusion that he came to. It appears to me that he could not come to the place that he would give man that kind of credit.

Joshua told the people to choose who they would serve. Verses like that seem to indicate that man does have the choice. Yet, even then there would be populations of mankind that had no idea of who are what God was. Today, it even seems worse. Nations of men teach their children that our God is not really God. Some appear to be decent people. At one time I lived next door to a couple that believed that. They were Muslim and had no intention of switching to Christianity. They were not believers. I spoke to them about Christ but they simply did not believe.

Blessings.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 30, 2013 at 4:38am

By the way, I believe it is right to tell people to choose. I just do not believe that all have that choice. I teach young people and that is what I tell them. I tell the to choose. I tell them there are choices in life. It is a glorious thing to have a choice. I also believe that someone has to believe first. That is why some would call me as one with Calvinistic thinking. Children born into a Christian home have such an advantage. Yet, it appears as we get busier and busier, Bible time is becoming less and less. This is a sad situation and one we must fight with all our might. I guess that is partly of what it means to love God with our whole strength.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on January 30, 2013 at 8:50pm

Hi guys,

Let me just unload a few things on my mind to start with......Colby, I'm not one much for labels on people, but I gotta tell you, Bro - that is really something: "Calminianism"......I truly like it!

And as far as carrying on a deep discussion like this, I'd rather be gettin' down with you two saints than any combination of seminary professors, or right reverand doctors, or T.V. dignitaries.......... or anybody, anytime. 

 

Roy, I'm curious.......would you want to share what position your two pastor sons have on this great debate?

 

I still believe that the final analysis will reveal.... that these two beliefs have roots in both camps. Maybe It's too complex and beyond human comprehension to settle in this life.

Over the last couple of years, Scripture has been used like a cross-fire from both sides. I think Roy has hit it on the head.....people can read and study the same verses, and come out with  different interpretations.

 

So, allow me to list some thoughts for your consideration:

" Then God Said, ' Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule........." (N.A.S.B.,Gen.1:26). ......God had yet to create the angels, but He created man with reason and choice...I believe.

Then, I just can't see God putting His only begotten Son through all the preaching and teaching......pain, anguish,

and degredation of the cross, then the mghty miracle of  resurrection only for His predestined ones.

 

Finally, the "greatest commandment", Matthew 22:37-40," And He said to them," You shall love the Lord  your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, and with all your might. (38) This is the great and fore most commandment. (39) The second is like it, "you shall love your neighbor as yourself." (40) On these two commandments depend the whole Law and the Prophets."

My point, guys, is a person must have  choice  to love anybody or anything......and a special kind of love, with the help of the Holy Spirit to love in this manner.

 

My belief is a believer is chosen during the the  sanctification  experience described in the salvation process listed in I corinthians 1:30.

 

But, I still have to admit.....in my personal walk with the Lord from baptism  over several years..... I cannot pin-point when I felt chosen.

 

Thank you for sharing.

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 30, 2013 at 9:16pm

Richard,

My two sons are focused on the knowledge that God saves all those that believe - to those that receive Him. They are so excited about God's movement in their church. They just concluded five services with the Power Team and saw between five and six hundred come forward to receive Christ. They are having some great services. I was there over Christmas and saw their auditorium packed. They are really having a visitation from God. I think you are correct - it is too difficult to figure out.

Richard, you say that a person must have choice to love anyone. You are not considering the concept of irresistible grace. When God reveals Himself to a person, they will love Him. They cannot resist Him. It is not a situation of a person being forced to accept or love Him. He is irresistible. I have to disagree with your position on that one.

I have a question for you. I am not quite understanding your position of being chosen at the point of sanctification. If those people that came forward for salvation - if they believe are they now saved or must they go through a process before they are really saved?

Blessings.

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 1, 2013 at 1:42am

Roy,

        Good question here.  I'm not sure what it means for us to be chosen by God at the time of sanctification.  Given that sanctification isn't a moment in time, but a lifelong process that ends at death, when can the convert to Jesus know that they're truly saved; that their choice has been ratified by God?  Is it only at the end of their faith journey: i.e, at death? 

Faith, hope and love,

Colby

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on January 31, 2013 at 9:24pm

Greetings to all,

 

Let me start out by answering a couple of questions:

Roy, we're going to have to agree to disagree  on your comment - When God reveals Himself to a person, they will love Him. They cannot resist him.

I submit one who was very close to Jesus.......Judas Iscariot.....who lived and travelled with the Son of God for three years, witnessed all the love,  miracles, and was named treasurer of the group by Jesus...... and obviously did not come to love the Lord.

Therefore, my position is that a person must really want to love (by choice) an unseen God , however being  irresististibly revealed to the person.

Remember the greatest  commandment quoted by Jesus - "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."

My question is, would Almighty God use His power to,  like... coerce a person to love Him? Seems to me He would want the person to come and love Him on the person's own volition and desire............

 

And then, If those people who came forward for salvation - if they believe are they now saved or must they go through a process before they are really saved?

 

Roy, my brother, I have to stay with the process outlined in I Corinthians 1:30 - wisdom (from God), righteousness ( or justification), sanctification, and redemption.

Sanctification ( Greek, hagiasomos - separation unto God, holiness). I still believe this is when God "chooses" the new convert to Jesus.

 

And how about Hebrews 12:14, " Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord." .

 

Finally, of the parable Jesus told in Matthew 22, the king (God) came in and looked over all who had been invited (called). They were all enjoying the wedding banquet of the King's son (Jesus) except one, who was not dressed for the feast (clothed in Christ). He was removed.

Jesus ended the parable with this statement - " For many are called, but few are chosen".

 

Grace and Peace to all.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 31, 2013 at 9:39pm

Richard,

I do not think you can use Judas as an example of a believer who knew Jesus as Who He was. Jesus called Judas a devil. Judas is a very good example of one that saw all the miracles and still did not believe. He serves as an example for enlarging the question about why some believe and some do not believe. I think we are very safe to say that Judas was not a believer. Judas was looking for something other than a holy life.

Why Judas committed suicide at the end again is perplexing. He missed the entire message that Jesus brought. He heard Him teach day after day and did not get it. That brings me right back to my question to Colby: "why do some believe and others don't?" Judas is an excellent example of one that could be in the midst of a revival movement and still not have faith.

Again, we have a different philosophy and look at salvation just a little differently. Yet we both believe strongly that Jesus saves those who come to Him and call on Him in faith. The parable in Matthew 22 would also testify to the one that did not believe. I'm pretty sure that we would agree that it is the chosen that believe. Our difference would be the criteria for those who are chosen. I do not consider that as something that is at all critical.

Good points.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 1, 2013 at 12:32am

"We look at salvation just a little differently. Yet we both believe strongly that Jesus saves those who come to Him and call on Him in faith. ... I'm pretty sure that we would agree that it is the chosen that believe. Our difference would be the criteria for those who are chosen. I do not consider that as something that is at all critical."

Well said.  I, for one, would stipulate to this.

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 1, 2013 at 1:03am

Richard,

        Would I be restating your position correctly by saying that both are true: we choose God and God chooses us?  How do you think this works, step-by-step?  Would it be something like this?  

1)   The Holy Spirit woos us; we hear the Gospel.

2)   God's grace isn't overwhelming; we're free to accept or reject God's calling.  

3)   For the new convert to Jesus, Sanctification is when God "chooses us."

        Is Sanctification, as you understand it from a biblical standpoint,  a one-time event (a moment in time) or is it a gradual and continual lifelong process?  When can I, as a new convert, know that God has chosen has me?

Faith, hope and love,

Colby

Permalink Reply by RoyW on February 1, 2013 at 4:38am

Richard,

Consider this and maybe this will help you to understand the dilemma of the Calvinist (I do not necessarily ascribe to the name but for convenience will.)

You and even Colby are presenting the possibility that it is a combination of both. On the surface this does seem to be a possibility as one reads in Scripture several verses that demand that the sinner repent of his sins, come to Christ and be baptized. On the other hand one reads that man is unable to come to Christ unless he is enabled to by Christ. For instance:

Jn 6:37-40
All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never drive away. 38 For I have come down from heaven not to do my will but to do the will of him who sent me. 39 And this is the will of him who sent me, that I shall lose none of all that he has given me, but raise them up at the last day. 40 For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day." NIV

Here, we are given the sense as Jesus taught those who had just seen Him feed the thousands with only five loaves and two fish and so many were clamoring after Him that not all would come to Him - only those whom the Father had given and He would lose none of all of those. Pretty powerful, but He goes on:

Jn 6:44 "No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him, and I will raise him up at the last day. NIV

There are those who will hear and those who will not hear. I do not have the answer to why some do and some don't. He goes on and reconfirms His earlier statement:

Jn 6:65 "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless the Father has enabled him." NIV

Richard, there are many passages that show man's inability to come to Christ while other verses certainly seem to indicate that it is man's responsibility to come to Christ in order to be saved. Where we are all going to differ somewhat is what causes one to come and another not to respond to this command to come to Christ.

Let me give an example of something that might help my perspective. Consider the vision Ezekiel had in chapter 37. Ezekiel was taken to a valley full of dead dry bones. We are told that the bones are very dry indicating they had been dead for some time. Some would say this concerns the nation of Israel and so it might but I have not yet seen that. I see things just a little differently in these matters as well but I surely do not want to go there. But, consider for a moment this is a picture of those that are dead but predestined to come alive in Christ. Ezekiel was asked, "Can these bones live?"Hear the Word of the Lord to Ezekiel:

Eze 37:4 ..."Prophesy to these bones and say to them, 'Dry bones, hear the word of the Lord! NIV

Now, these bones are very dead. There is no way they can respond to the command to hear the word. They cannot respond to anything the Lord is saying. THEY ARE DEAD! Richard and Colby, this is a picture of what I believe I was. I was so dead in my sins that I could not hear the word. I heard man's voice but I could not hear His voice. I heard the command to be saved but there was not a thing in this world I could do about it. Let's go on:

Eze 37:5-8
 This is what the Sovereign Lord says to these bones: I will make breath  enter you, and you will come to life. 6 I will attach tendons to you and make flesh come upon you and cover you with skin; I will put breath in you, and you will come to life. Then you will know that I am the Lord.'"

7 So I prophesied as I was commanded. And as I was prophesying, there was a noise, a rattling sound, and the bones came together, bone to bone. 8 I looked, and tendons and flesh appeared on them and skin covered them, but there was no breath in them. NIV

I still see this as a picture of me. I was in the church. I was pastoring. I had been to Bible school but still had not heard. There was no breath in me. I was good enough in conduct to get through the licensing boards and the ordination boards but perhaps some there did not know him either. Now, this is where it gets really good. Ezekiel is told to call forth the breath from the four winds. Can someone preach to me concerning this for it is sweet music to my ears? "Spurgeon, can you bring forth these words from the lofty heights from which they have come?" Ah, forgive my lack of focus.

Breath came and entered them and they stood on their feet - a vast army. Now, take the following with a grain of salt. This prophecy concerns you and me - we are the house of Israel. We are those to whom Christ was speaking. We are the ones for which He came. We are the lost sheep of Israel. He came to get us and place us in our right home - where we belong. Okay, let's get away from here.

Consider, then, that we are as dead as those bones. How can we hear and how can we respond? Perhaps you see yourself as only partly dead with enough left to hear and respond. I think the man must be reborn to hear and respond. You see, I am convinced that I was as dead as those dry bones. I was in the church listening to the sermons but I could not respond without the breath of life in me. Jesus had to come and save me. He had to show me the way. I was forever lost with no hope of recovery. There was nothing I could do to correctly respond to the call of the Gospel. I am one that was really trying. I was promising God everything but could give nothing. I was hopelessly dead in my sins. I was calling out, I was giving everything I had to give but yet without that breath, it was all in vain.

Again, I say that was my experience and it just may be that part of my doctrinal understanding is based upon my own experience. But, when light dawned upon me, it dispelled all of the darkness. The fear and doubt left. I knew for the first time in my life that I was saved from my sins. I was a believer in Jesus Christ. The Word came alive and I began to read it very differently than I had before. I begin to see myself in those pages just as I mention here in Ezekiel. That was nearly forty years ago and I still believe. I have never again had one of those recurring nightmares of missing the rapture as I had so feared before. I knew Jesus would fulfill His promise of keeping me through the rest of my life. Again, my wife thought I had lost my mind but would later come to the same understanding of her salvation as well. We all have a path to walk. As you can see, my walk is a little complicated. I used to get somewhat upset when one would say to me that it was partly me. I knew that was not true in my case. I trust Him completely. I am convinced that He is able and that he will bring me safely to my eternal home.

Now, I understand that not everyone goes through what I went through. Others had a much simpler path to God.

Let me share one more verse. Two will read this verse and see it much differently. That is why I still can't figure out why. I think that is part of our discussion.

Isa 26:10
Though grace is shown to the wicked,
they do not learn righteousness;
even in a land of uprightness they go on doing evil
and regard not the majesty of the Lord. NIV

Blessings,

Roy

Permalink Reply by Colby on February 1, 2013 at 1:57am

Roy and Richard,

More enlightening discussion and appreciation of different perspectives, speaking the truth in love, presented here in your latest responses.  We're still standing, still talking civilly, and we've not declared each other heretics fit to be burned at the stake.

God saw to it that the Holy Scriptures present the essentials of the Christian faith in plain and clear language.  For example, we can stipulate that we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.  Further, that we believe in the Gospel, which the Apostle Paul succinctly and clearly restates in First Corinthians 15: Christ died, buried and risen.  Because we profess Jesus as our Lord and Savior and agree on the essential truths of the Christian faith, as revealed by God in his written Word, we can esteem each other as brothers in Christ.

There are some questions the Bible doesn't answer.  We simply can't know these things this side of the veil.  If God had deemed it essential, he would have revealed the answers in the Holy Scriptures.

 

Getting back to this question: Do we choose God, or did God choose us before we chose him?

• Could the Bible be presenting both as side-by-side truths, a conundrum that we simply can't fathom?
• How about Saul of Tarsus?
• Did he choose God and then he was born again, or was he born again and then chose God?
  • If the risen Christ hadn't intervened in the Apostle Paul's life on the road to Damascus, would Paul have ever come to a saving knowledge of the truth?  
  • Was it Paul reaching out to God, or was it God that reached out to Paul?  
  • Was Paul overcome by God's overwhelming grace?  Could he have resisted it?  Can we ever know?

Faith, hope and love,

Colby 

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; in everything else, charity.

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• 8
• Next ›
• Page