CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on January 25, 2013 at 8:12pm

Yay Colby!

The Theology group is alive and well......and on the move again.

 

Now, unless my Calvinistic Brothers and Sisters have changed their positions........let the green flag wave.

 

Colby: to answer your three questions with my thoughts -

 

(1.) Both. First, faith is God's gift (Ephesians 2:8, "For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselfs, it is the gift of God.").

Second. Hebrews 11:6, "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him.". 

My take on faith, is that when the Holy Spirit comes along side a person while convicting this person, He imparts a measure of faith in the process. This could be likened to primimg a pump......which becomes an out-flow of faith in the new believer.

 

(2.) Both. I'm becoming more and more convinced in my heart that it is a combination of Calvinism and Arminianism.....to be explained later.

 

(3.) I believe that God chooses His saints.....at a particular time......to be explained later.

 

I really find this interesting, Colby, that you would re-open this case at this precise time.......

Because I've been working on these very questions you posed here. Maybe the Holy Spirit wants us all to come around the post-table again. Thank you for your post.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 26, 2013 at 6:13am

Richard,

Here it comes! The Great Debate! haha

First of all, from Colby's post, not all Calvinists are Reformed Presbyterians or from some other Reformed group. I have been called a Calvinist but if that is true, it is not because I have studied a lot about Calvinism. I personally have never attended for even a short period of time what is called a Calvinistic church.

In your comment, here, you mention that you are convinced in your heart that it is a combination of Calvinism and Arminianism. You are going to explain that later but I really don't think that is possible.

I think you are either one or the other. I can't see how you could be both. If you say that God chooses but gives even a small part of that choosing to man's choice or accepting or rejecting, that becomes Arminianism. An Arminian just cannot accept any position of the Calvinist.

I agree both are Christian and some are just fine with their Arminian beliefs. Virtually all my friends are Arminian. I have been around Arminian churches all my life. I have really only attended Arminian churches. I did try out a few Calvinistic churches but to me they were so boring, I didn't go back. I am accustomed to the worship found in Holiness churches and that is what I prefer.

I do have the opinion that I might be wrong and do not take the position that it is my way or the highway. My son pastors a very large Arminian church. It is an exciting church. Just this week they had the Power Team visit and had close to a thousand in attendance with many getting saved. I have three sons in that town: one pastors, the other is the executive pastor and the other works with the railroad. My three daughters-in-law use the same doctor. He came forward for salvation. One of the public school's basketball high school coaches came forward for salvation along with many others. It was an exciting week for them. My sons are prospering in an Arminian church.

They grew up differently than I did. I grew up in a very strict home and was convinced I would never go to heaven. That had a lot to do with my becoming what some call Calvinistic. My children did not grow up with that fear as I did. They knew who they were in Christ as soon as they were old enough to accept Him.

Anyway, we do have some very healthy discussions in my family as we are about half and half on the issue. I think there might have even been a difference of opinion on this subject among the early believers. If Paul and James were around today, I think Paul would be labeled a Calvinist and James would be labeled an Arminian. They came from very different backgrounds and Paul's participation in the killing and arrest of Christians probably caused some of his beliefs.

Richard, I think you are an Arminian. Even though you do see some truth in the Calvinistic camp (by the way I don't like to be called a Calvinist), you still believe man is a free moral agent with the ability to choose or reject Christ. The Calvinist doesn't believe that You can reject Christ if you are chosen. The Calvinist believes that if He called you by name, you would not be able to reject His love.

If you are saying that both the Calvinist and the Arminian are partly wrong in their beliefs, I can better accept that position. The Calvinist would say it is either all of God or not all of God. Even if only a small percentage of it is by man, then it is no longer all of God and thus the Calvinist belief would be completely wrong. I can't see where any of the Calvinistic belief could be correct if it were a combination. For instance, you talk about God choosing but I really doubt you are saying that you believe in unconditional election. If it is not unconditional election then it is Arminianism and not part of both. I hope I am making sense.

The Calvinistic belief may be wrong. I didn't use to think that but now I realize that is a possibility. However, if part of it is wrong, it is basically something completely different. Either it is all of God or partly of God and partly of man. No matter where you put that percentage, it remains one of the other.

From Scripture, it appears to demand certain things from man which would lead us to believe that man has a part in the process. That is by far the most popular position in our country.  Yet, there are still some that believe that those who have had His love revealed to them, do not have the capacity to resist Him and continue in their lifestyle of disobedience. I am one that believes his grace is irresistible.

I see no way it could be part of both and so I am ready to hear your explanation of how that is possible.

I do not see this as a critical discussion. Regardless how it works, it still works. Jesus still saves man from his sin if he calls upon Him in faith. That is the bottom line and to me what is most important.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on January 27, 2013 at 7:55pm

Brother Roy,

 

Thank you for your very nice, candid post.

You can be proud of your sons............Amen.

 

Using I Corinthians 1:30 as a text: "But by His (Holy Spirit's) doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness (justification) and sanctification (separation to God, holiness) and redemption."..........

And also, Revelation 17:14," These will wage war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, because He is Lord of lords and King of kings, and those who are with Him are the called and the chosen and the faithful". My underlining. There are several listings of "the called"......and the "chosen".

 It's my thought that initially the Holy Spirit puts out the call (invitation)  - ie,  John 3:16, and Jesus's parable in Matthew 22:1-13, which He ends with verse 14, " For many are called, but few are chosen.".

I guess my question is: Why would the Lord bother to keep up a constant call for people to come to salvation when He's already saved some before they're born? Now I do believe the Bible tells us that he knows who will come to Him before they're born.......but I don't think the Word says that He selects them ( other than some Old Testament persons, and of course, Saul who became Paul).

I know, I know.........the word " predestination" is a key in disagreement of interpretation in this discussion.

 

A  new person coming to Christ goes through the process of 1 Corinthians 1-30 ( freedom of choice, of which the word is listed 1595 times in the King James Version Bible - many times........it must be important to God.

And, it's my opinion that as the new believer is sanctified, that's the time this person is saved. Many seekers don't make it to this point.

How about this question, folks: God already has created His angels, the heavenly host......why would He want to create humans who are obedient to Him......like robots?

 

It has to be freedom of choice, through grace....even though God knows before a person is born which way that person is going.......with Him, or without. Why would there even be God's "grace" if it wasn't needed?

That's enough for now..........

 

Grace and Peace to all.....through the Lord Jesus Christ.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 27, 2013 at 8:51pm

Richard,

Thank you and I am very grateful that God is using my sons. They have had over 400 this week accept Christ. Tonight is their biggest night. They will probably go over 500 decisions. I am very grateful for their week preaching the Gospel in their community. It has been a very unusual week for them. Tonight my oldest son, the senior pastor, laid on a bed of nails. I am asking for a miracle as they are getting ready for the altar call. My daughter-in-law is keeping me informed. I am grateful to God. I am very humbled.

Your response is very good. I am not attempting to disagree. What I am doing is pointing out that your position is an Arminian position and not part Calvinistic and part Arminian. The minute you give the person credit for choosing Christ, it becomes Arminian. And, you may be exactly correct. There are many, many, many that are far more learned in Scripture that believe these exact things.

I also believe that God puts out the call for mankind to come to Him. I just don't believe that any will choose to do that. The key is what causes a person to believe. Those who believe are saved. Those who do not are not saved. Your position is that a person chooses to believe. I just don't see how that is possible but all things are possible with God.

I believe that people are saved at the moment they believe and confess their faith. I'm not sure what you mean by not being saved until sanctification. I think you might have a little problem with that with most folks. Regardless of how we get the faith, faith is the key to our salvation. Without faith there is no salvation. But all that do believe are saved. Having believed in and receiving Christ, one is eternally saved. Many will fall away. The reason they fall away is that they really don't believe.

Blessings to you and have a great week. My son survived the bed of nails. I have not heard yet how many came to Christ.

Permalink Reply by Colby on January 27, 2013 at 10:06pm

Richard and Roy,

        The topic fascinates me.  Admittedly, I lack a detailed understanding of the respective positions staked out by the Arminian and Calvinist camps with respect to salvation.  Though, I have read several  articles, have heard the concepts discussed on the radio, and have had discussions with friends that identify as one or the other.

        Can the Calvinist position be summed up with the five points represented by the  "T*U*L*I*P" acronym, and the Arminian position by the "Five Articles of Remonstrance?"

        If so, with respect to each (or any) of the five TULIP points, I'd like to ask:

• Where, how, and to what extent (if at all), do you think they could be harmonized -- or are they fundamentally irreconcilable?  

1. T = Total Depravity of Man.  (For example, how far apart are Calvinists and Arminians here?)
2. U = Unconditional Election.
3. L = Limited Atonement.
4. I = Irresistable Grace.
5. P = Perseverance of the Saints.

 

Faith, hope and love,

Colby

 

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 28, 2013 at 4:52am

Colby,

I think for some those are very good points of reference for theological discussions. For me, it is a basic understanding that helps me in my reading of God's Word. For instance: when different ones read Eph. 2:8, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith - and this not of yourselves...," different ones will have different thoughts as they read a verse like that. Some will say that is all of God while others might say that it is a joint effort between God and man. For me, the bottom line is that we are saved, regardless of what really happens. I think of Saeed, the pastor arrested in Iran. He is there by God's grace unable to resist telling those destined for salvation the Good News of Jesus Christ. Yet, nearly all there will never be given the opportunity to really receive Him as their Savior. Most there will never get the opportunity to hear as Satan has bound their hearts and hindered the Gospel from ever reaching them. Iran will soon have 100,000,000 people with almost all of them bound for hell. Yet, there are a few that will hear and be saved even in that country. This is so sad to think of. They nearly all will not hear and will not be saved. Is that their fault? These are things we have to trust God with and be grateful that we have heard. It seems that to be saved, one must be born in a nation that is open to the Gospel. God teaches us that it will be handed down from one generation to the other. I became what some call Calvinistic in my thinking concerning salvation. I think faith has to come from God. God puts us in the right place at the right time to hear the Good News. I don't know the criteria of God's choosing. Why He chooses those He does is beyond me. Yet, it does appear that He does. It is by God's grace that I am in America and heard the Gospel taught as a child. Some people appear to be born in areas where they will never be given the choice to receive Him. Paul seems to be saying this when he attributes God with this work. He says in Romans:

Ro 10:14-15

14 How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15 And how can they preach unless they are sent? NIV

Most there will not hear because not enough are being sent. Billions have died in their sins without ever having the opportunity to be saved from their sins. If Saeed is put into prison, some there will hear the Gospel. Does God have one person there He wants to save? Or, is it all by chance? I believe if a person is chosen, he will hear the Gospel. I believe that is by grace and not by chance. I believe that if one person has an appointment with God, there is nothing in this world that can prohibit that from happening. That is my understanding of God's grace.

I believe God saved me by His grace. I do not know why I am chosen. I know there is nothing in me that merited this favor. I simply do not know.

Permalink Reply by Colby on January 28, 2013 at 2:28pm

Richard and Roy,

        What you’ve shared (and others in previous responses) is helpful.  I see the terms "Arminian" and "Calvinists" not as followers or devotees of two long since dead theologians, but rather as useful labels or shorthand for the framework or foundation on which we make sense of biblical teachings concerning salvation.  I’ve heard some Christians say simplistically and with some derision -- often out of ignorance or misunderstanding -- “I’m not a Calvinist, an Arminian, or anything else besides a Christian.  I just believe the Bible.”

        Both camps base their belief systems on the Bible, agreeing on certain core biblical truths, including:

1. man’s nature is corrupt and predisposed to sin;
2. we are saved by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone;
3. not all are saved;
4. we are sustained in faith (sanctified) by the Holy Spirit; and 
5. in the end, those that have professed a saving faith and continue in (or return to) it will be saved.  So far so good. 

        This list of areas of doctrinal agreement  is by no means exhaustive.  However, in trying to make sense of these truths, they have come to different understandings concerning the process of salvation, both informed by Scripture. As the old saying goes, the devil is in the details (pun intended). 

        For Calvinists, these are summed up by the 5 points of  the “TULIP” acronym; for Arminians, by the “Five Articles of Remonstrance.” Some Christians fall outside of both camps, considering themselves neither Calvinist nor Arminian.

        Here are some key differences, albeit greatly simplified, as I see them based on my admittedly limited and general familiarity.

• Once Saved, Always Saved?  Calvinists believe in “Eternal Security” (OSAS).  Once a member of the elect confesses a genuine saving faith, his/her salvation is certain.  He/she might experience a lapse or lull in faith, but they will always come back.
  
  Arminians believe in “Conditional Security,” which is to say, I’m saved as long as I continue to believe.  If I lose my faith, I’ll lose my salvation.  Thus, they have the “assurance” of salvation for as long as they believe; but, knowing that they could later fall away, means they can’t be eternally secure.  Their assurance is conditional; limited to the here-and-now.  In contrast, the Calvinist has eternal security, but wait -- not so fast.  The proof will be in the pudding, so to speak, insofar as they must “persevere” to the end.  If not, they were never truly saved to begin with.  So Calvinists have security but not assurance, and Arminians have assurance without security, with regard to their salvation, if I my understanding of these terms is correct.
• Monergism vs. Synergism: As you noted, Calvinists are monergistic and Arminians are synergistic concerning the “who” and “how” of salvation.  Say what?!  The monergistic view is that God alone is entirely responsible for everything that happens from start to finish.  We have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation.  In contrast, Arminians believe that the individual must cooperate with God, beginning with a choice to “accept Jesus Christ as my personal Lord and Savior” and in their subsequent sanctification.
• Who?  Calvinists hold that “God chooses us (to be saved).”  Why?  Out of his good pleasure.  (He has his own reasons).  Arminians may say just the opposite: “We choose God.” Or they might put a somewhat different spin on this: “God chooses us, but he does so based on his foreknowledge of the future choices we will make.”
  
  
• The Cross/Atonement:  A) Christ died on the cross to atone for the sins of everyone who ever lived and will live, without exception (Ariminian); or
  B) Christ died on the cross for the sins of the "elect" only (i.e., those that God chose in advance to be saved)? (Calvinist).  If A, why aren't all people, therefore, saved?  If B, doesn't God desire that all should come to be saved, and isn't that why he sent his son into the world?

• How?  Both agree that we come to faith by the leading, call or wooing of the Holy Spirit. The Calvinist holds that “the elect” can’t resist or refuse and will at the proper time be overwhelmed by God’s grace while the Arminian says that man’s “free will” means that we can resist the Holy Spirit. 

• Timing.  Which comes first?  A (i) I come to faith and (ii) then I’m regenerated by the Holy Spirit and receive God’s saving grace (Arminian view); or
  B (i) I’m regenerated by the Holy Spirit and (ii) followed by God’s gifts of faith and grace (Calvinist view).

        These are some of my musings or reflections, as I grapple with the subject and attempt to make sense of these frameworks for understanding God’s plan for salvation.  If I am off the mark on any of these, I would appreciate these being pointed out so I can adjust/correct my thinking accordingly.  I look forward to coming to a clearer and more nuanced appreciation of both, as well as your thoughts on whether or not and to what extent these two respective positions can be harmonized, and I hope I’m contributing in a meaningful way to this discussion.

 

Faith, hope and love,

 

Colby

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 28, 2013 at 3:26pm

Colby,

I think you are right on in your observations of the differences. Excellent!

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on January 28, 2013 at 9:02pm

Hi Guys,

 

I'm on limited time here tonight......so.....

Colby, I'm glad you "stumbled" on to this site.You've really added some heavy stuff that I'm going to have to chew on for a while. Thank you for your input.

Lookey here, my friends.....from Romans to Revelation, What is the primary body of the Bible dealing with?

I would say......justification, sanctification, and redemption....and how a believer acheives and perfects these areas as one grows in faith and love along with allowing the Holy Spirit to produce the other seven fruit also.

And........how to do church.

 

Then too, consider I Corinthians 15:1-2, " Moreover, brethren,I declare to you the gospel which I preached to you, and in which you stand, (2)  by which also you are saved, if you hold fast that word which I preached to you  - unless you believed in vain.". NKJV, my underlining).

I believe that verses  as this,  point out that some people who fall away didn't really  believe in the first place.

But, I also believe there are Christians on their own volition and faith are OSAS, and they are not predestinated. They are chosen by God through being sanctified.

 

That's all for now...gotta go.

 

Grace and Peace.

 

Permalink Reply by Colby on January 29, 2013 at 10:57am

Richard and Roy,

        Thank you for a fascinating, eye-opening and thought-provoking discussion!  I've been catching up by reading the posts in the first part of this discussion, which David V. initiated, as well as your most recent responses, which all shed much light on these two systems/frameworks for understanding salvation.  I want to emphasize that I'm especially impressed by the irenic nature of the discussion.  There's more light than heat here.  No need to put on body armor and do one's best not to get caught in the crossfire.

        Richard, I do hope you'll follow up, as time permits, to further explain your thoughts and expand on your thesis that both thought systems are "correct" and can be harmonized with each other.  Say, for example, a three-point Calvinist or a four-point Arminian.  If so, would that make you a "Calminian?"

• In your discussion opener, you stated: "I think that both beliefs (Calvinism - Arminianism) ARE CORRECT" (08/26/11).
• You left us with a great teaser on Saturday: "I'm becoming more and more convinced in my heart that it is a combination of Calvinism and Arminianism.....to be explained later." 
• I'm curious as to how much "common ground" exists from your perspective between these two systems and whether they still "hang together" once you start blending them.  In certain key respects, they seem opposed: God's sovereignty vs. man's "free will" and monergism (God alone) vs. synergism (us cooperating with God).

        Roy, you have much insight to share because of your personal experience with both systems.  You made some thoughtful points as well.

• "I can't see how you could be both [Arminian and Calvinist].

• If you say that God chooses but gives even a small part of that choosing to man's choice or accepting or rejecting, that becomes Arminianism. An Arminian just cannot accept any position of the Calvinist.

• I agree both are Christian... If you are saying that both the Calvinist and the Arminian are partly wrong in their beliefs, I can better accept that position. The Calvinist would say it is either all of God or not all of God.

• Either it is all of God or partly of God and partly of man. No matter where you put that percentage, it remains one of the other."

        How salvation works exactly may be something of a mystery to us even after a careful reading of God's Word.  Our capacity to understand God's ways is limited and we should never try to put in a box.  Despite their differences on the "how" of salvation, I believe Christians in both camps agree on this key or core biblical doctrine: Salvation is by grace alone, through faith alone, in Jesus Christ alone.  The difference between these two systems/frameworks is on how we get there.  As the old adage goes, "the devil is in the details" (pun intended).  Roy succinctly states this overarching shared biblical principle nicely here:

• "The key is what causes a person to believe. Those who believe are saved. Those who do not are not saved.
• "Regardless how it works, it still works. Jesus still saves man from his sin if he calls upon Him in faith. That is the bottom line and to me what is most important."

Faith, hope and love,

 

Colby

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 29, 2013 at 12:21pm

Colby,

It is always very good to discuss the different passages of Scripture involved such as the one that Richard brought up. I have gone over and over verses like that. It all depends on how one views Scripture. Just quoting different verses of Scripture doesn't really work. I know that these verses do bring up questions in people's minds - "If this is true how could this be true?" I have often said that the situations surrounding my own salvation probably has much to do with how I believe Scripture. I was absolutely convinced that I could never make heaven. I was a young pastor telling others how they needed to live a good life in order to make heaven. I was just too convinced that it was a lot up to us to make it. Since I knew I would never be good enough, I felt I would never make it to heaven. I had nightmares of the rapture taking place and that I would not make it. I had the same nightmare over and over. Finally, at the age of twenty-seven, I became so desperate that I determined to go on a fast until I could get some kind of answer from God. I was an 100% Arminian at the beginning of that fast. During that fast, it was total with nothing but tap water during which time I became very sick, I read nothing but the Bible. I did not consult any book. I needed to hear from God. After about ten days I began to focus completely on Paul's writing and then finally began focusing on Romans and Galatians. After the ten days, I came off the fast knowing God had answered my prayer but not exactly sure about everything. Within a few months I was what some would describe a Calvinist even though I would have not described myself that way. I had become convinced that I was one of God chosen, that He had ordained my salvation from the very foundation of this earth, that He loved me desperately and that He had come to die for me and that there was nothing anywhere that could ever take that love from me. At that moment I was convinced that heaven was a certainty.

I had had a revelation of God's love. I was seeing God in a completely different way than I was before. I knew that God was for me - not against me. The Bible came alive in my heart and the verses I had once read one way I was now reading a different way. I knew that I belonged to God and that was the end of it. It didn't matter what I thought or what I did (I say that reservedly for the sake of others) because I was one of His. Well, my wife thought I had lost my mind. My sermons completely changed. She was very worried about me for some of the things I was now saying. Her mother was a holiness preacher. She came up to Kansas to see what was wrong with me. I just mentioned that I now realized for the very first time in my life that I was really saved and that this was something I never had to worry about ever again. She left saying it was obvious that something had happened to me.

That was nearly forty years ago. Today, I have become way more mellow. You have to realize that I was a person that had come to the conclusion that the only possible way I might be saved was, after missing the rapture, refuse to take the mark and have my head cut off. I thought that I would ask God's forgiveness just before the axe fell an then I might make it. That's how Arminian I was. Today, all I want people to know is that they can be saved from their sins and that they don't need to worry about that part of it. I see people on here all the time worrying about their salvation. From my own experience I know that isn't necessary. Like Paul, I am convinced in His work not mine.

When people begin to tell me what my part is, I quickly turn them off as I just don't want to go there. I've been there and I don't want to go back. I believe my salvation was all of God. I believe God saved me from my sins and has given me life. It is already mine. It is not mine to gain anymore. It is now mine. I am now saved. I give God 100% of the glory. I leave no glory for myself. When I say it is all of God that is exactly what I mean. I'm leaving nothing to myself for I know I would mess everything up. I know myself too well. haha

Permalink Reply by RoyW on January 29, 2013 at 1:25pm

I notice there are two kinds of discussions that I am really drawn to. This is one and the other is about God and evolution. I often say to myself that I am not going to get into a discussion on Calvinism. I do not consider myself anywhere near to an authority on the issue. I am very interested, however, in the authority of Scripture and the nature of our salvation. Those two issues, in my thinking, are really under attack. Colby, you said that both camps believe it is by grace through faith alone. That is what is important.

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