GOD'S USE OF THE WORD *IF*

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Permalink Reply by Colby on January 7, 2013 at 1:27pm

Rita,

Indeed, you make some terrific points here about getting past "if," and there's much to unpack here.

• Biblical Contradictions - - If we approach the Holy Scriptures not as the Word of God written by men inspired by the Holy Spirit, but rather as those of fallible men containing their thoughts about God, then we can read into biblical passages whatever we want to find there, including many apparent contradictions.  There are countless websites as well as books and articles written by agnostics and atheists that do this very thing, selectively quoting verses out of context.  To those who don't know the Bible, such arguments can be superficially convincing.  To those that know the Bible well and understand it as sacred writings, these seeming contradictions can be resolved.
  
  
• God's promises, or covenants with us, can be conditional or unconditional.  If the former,they require action on our part (as recipients) in order to be realized.
  
  
• Faith without works is dead, as we read in the epistle of James.  We aren't saved by a mere said faith or profession of belief in a set of propositions about God.  Genuine, saving faith, which only comes from the Holy Spirit, is results in works or "fruit," which comes from the transforming grace of God and provides the evidence of our new life in Christ.
  
  
• As with any other great work of literature, the Bible needs to be read "in context" to properly and fully interpret passages.  In context means that, we need to: 1) know whether the author is intending to be understood literally or figuratively/metaphorically; 2) who the intended audience is; 3) and read the verses immediately preceding and following a verse or passage, if not the entire book; and 4) preferably, have some understanding of the cultural and social setting.  Better yet, we need to interpret ambiguous passages in light of clearer passages.  Scripture interprets Scripture.
  
  
• We need to read the Bible for all it's worth, from cover to cover, continuously, for a lifetime.  We shouldn't just read the Bible in snippets, jumping around and reading a few passages here and there.  Yet, sadly, that's the approach many take.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on January 8, 2013 at 3:21am

Colby,

You said something in your post that struck a note with me. 

 2) who the intended audience is; 

I consider the audience in many verses I read but I also consider that God wants this verse implanted within Rita. God gave us this *living book* to help each of us grow. When I am reading it, I try to absorb it as a Word given directly to me by God. I read, pray about it, and read it some more. The Holy Spirit, at some point will give me the answer. I believe many receive knowledge found in the Word in this manner.

The point is that it is revealed to many *audiences*, many who require the knowledge for a different purpose. I believe that is why we see some things differently from others who receive the same knowledge. We have a different need. We have a different question to be answered, but the same verse will answer many different questions for many different people.  The result is a disagreement as to what the verse means. 

I believe the correct way to approach the understanding of a verse is to keep what the Spirit has led us to know *without discarding as unbelievable what another is led to know*. I believe that is where the Christian Community is being led astray....by not giving credence to what another has learned by reading the same verse. We need not discredit the relationship that another person has with the Lord. We need to keep in mind that we aren't all alike and that we don't have the identical answer for the same question. If we can consider all questions about a verse and all the different answers the Holy Spirit gives to the same verse, we have a much deeper understanding of the verse overall.

I try to remember that the answer you have received might not match mine but that the Holy Spirit has a relationship with you, as well as me, and that I need to consider your answer as valid.

God wants us to be in harmony and I believe we can be, through the ability to understand the different audiences and the different answers that these audiences receive.

Blessings to you.....

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Colby on January 8, 2013 at 11:51am

Char,

        There's much truth in your comments about church-splitting. Sometimes breakups occur over major doctrinal differences and at other times over relatively minor issues, such as music preferences.  

Often, we let our pride get in the way, particularly when we "major in the minors and minor in the majors" with respect to our Christian faith.
        In other words, we sometimes tend to dwell on the differences on secondary (non-salvific) matters, emphasizing the denominational distinctives that set us apart, instead of on the core essentials that unite us as members of the Body of Christ, which are centered on the person and work of Jesus Christ and the God of the Holy Bible.

Faith, hope and love,

Colby

In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and, in everything else, charity.

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Permalink Reply by ribbon on January 8, 2013 at 12:36pm

Hey Char,

  Im afraid I would be one of the complainers. sooorrrryy. If I was a member of a church amd the then the praise and worship music changed so drastic and they had the attitude as saying hey old people if you dont like it theres the door Well then i would pick up my bible and find another church. Someewhere i think here on the forums I read where  some older people were moved out of the santuary because of the loudness. Thats sad to me. Music? The grandmas and grandpas? Its out you go people. I can nderstand why some may get upset. Churches around here have younger generation groups to where its the same church just different sides of the building Dont hurt me.....

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Permalink Reply by Colby on January 8, 2013 at 10:53am

I believe the correct way to approach the understanding of a verse is to keep what the Spirit has led us to know *without discarding as unbelievable what another is led to know*. ... 

We need to keep in mind that we aren't all alike and that we don't have the identical answer for the same question. If we can consider all questions about a verse and all the different answers the Holy Spirit gives to the same verse, we have a much deeper understanding of the verse overall.

Rita,

        Your point is spot-on. Each of us may come to somewhat different understandings of the meaning and applicability of certain passages of the Scriptures, especially those that aren't as clear as others or that lends themselves to more than one interpretation.  We can benefit greatly in our understanding of God's Word if we remain "teachable" and open to considering the points of view of others who like us take the Bible seriously.

• Each of us approaches the Bible not as a blank slate, but from a unique vantage point.  We filter what we read through the lens of our own individual life experiences, family upbringing, socio-economic background, cultural milieu, denominational affiliation, level of literacy, etc..
• Each of us reads the Bible through our own our biases, prejudices and presuppositions because we are human and, therefore, fallible.
• Sometimes, consciously or not, we superimpose our own intended meanings on the text  (isegesis) rather than letting the author's original message come through (exegesis).
• Sometimes we ignore or go through interpretive gymnastics to explain away passages that don't align with our preconceived notions.
• Thus, our individual understanding of the Scriptures (as the imperfect beings that we are) varies among us.  The EPA disclaimer posted on new cars applies: "Your mileage may vary."
• No one person has a complete and perfect understanding of the Bible.  Not even the most learned biblical scholars that have gone so far as to learn the original languages and have devoted much of their lives to serious and sustained scholarly biblical study/research.
• No wonder the Bible has been the object of such intense study/research for nearly 2,000 years.  It  is an inexhaustible repository of the truth regarding God's plan of salvation, timeless and universal in its application.

Faith, hope and love,

Colby

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 8, 2013 at 3:02pm

If, then statements are conditional. In logic, by definition, a conditional is “a compound statement formed by combining two sentences (or facts) using the words 'if ... then.' A conditional can also be called an implication.”

Those who remember high school geometry are aware of this. The truth values for if, then statements are relative in the world. Here’s an example.

A teacher may tell a student, "If you participate in class, then you will get extra points." When is the teacher’s statement true? When both parts of the statement are true.

If the student participates but does not get extra points, then the teacher made a false statement.

However, if the student chooses not to participate, then the truth of the statement can’t be judged simply because the teacher didn’t say she wouldn’t give extra points anyway. She might have pity on a bashful student and assign extra points as a favor. Yet, even in that case, we can’t say the teacher’s statement is false, so we wouldn't accuse the teacher of lying and would still believe the statement as being true for all those students who did choose to participate.

Therefore, the conditional statement "If you participate in class, then you will get extra points" will be true in all cases except one: when you participate in class and you do NOT get the extra points.

With the Bible, we know that God will always remain true to His Word and will always do what He says He will do, even when it comes to conditional statements. When we choose not to keep the “if” part of the statement, then we can’t accuse God of making a false statement, especially since God is pretty thorough in His Word and often goes on to tell us what will happen if we don’t do the “if’ part.

An example is found in Leviticus 26, the entire chapter.

We often wonder why God isn't keeping His promises or why they aren't true for us. On the other hand, God, in His compassion and kindness, might show grace and favor to someone not keeping the if part of one of His truths. He's God. He can do whatever He wants.

But, is it ever enough to know God’s Word or even to believe it, or must we also follow it and apply it to our daily life and decisions? Many of God’s promises are conditional. But not all are. Unconditional promises have no ifs ands or buts. Jesus is coming back.

Here’s a great if, then statement:
If we compare ourselves to others, then we will find out that they are just as imperfect as we are.

So, should we compare in order to see if it's a true statement? :)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 8, 2013 at 3:35pm

Rita,

 

My question is, according to your question, "What are we striving for?" or better yet ... "Why are we striving for it (whatever "it" is)?"

 

James gives us a great insight:

James 4:1-10 (Note especially verses 2 and 3)

 

Secondly, there are several types of promises in the Bible. There are eternal and temporal promises. There are conditional and unconditional promises. There are promises made to a specific person (or people) that is not a promise for us today, though in their promise we can find principles to guide us. Thus, before we can apply a promise we must determine the validity of the promise to us today.

 

Third, we are to aspire to live in alignment with God's Word. There is a part of this that is on us and a part of this that is God's responsibility to work in us as we grow.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 8, 2013 at 4:31pm

Going along with the Scripture you suggested, we want God to grant what we request but very often we do ask "amiss." What you've said about there being a distinction between eternal and temporal promises and conditional and unconditional promises makes good sense. Many look at the prayer of Jabez and think it applies to everyone. I bought the book and gave it out as Christmas gifts one year several Christmases ago. But I don't think it is for everyone anymore. I could be wrong. Is there really anything about the prayer of Jabez that is a principle for anyone else other than for Jabez? Are the blessings Jabez received examples of temporal blessings? Many see it as a prayer worth repeating and since God did it for Jabez, it applies to us all. I no longer see that. I see it as part of the prosperity teachings.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 8, 2013 at 7:14pm

The principle(s) would be related to prayer.

Focus: God

Approach: Cried out, denoting a strong need or desire.

Requests: Stated specific requests and not some generic prayer.

Response from God: Granted His request.

 

This does not demonstrate that if we pray the same prayer that God will do the exact thing for us. What is our real need? What does God have planned for us? Does it include expanding our territory or moving us as He did Paul from place to place? Does it include a life without pain or a life of sacrifice like James who was beheaded?

 

One common example of misapplying the promises is the use of Joshua and Israel marching around the walls of Jericho. I know of many people, including a large Christian organization that try to copy this as if by marching around a place seven times is a guarantee of God's blessing. There is nothing wrong with prayer walking, but we cannot apply that promise to us. It was given to a specific people for a specific time for a specific purpose. Principle: Seek God's leading and pray against obstacles and be patient for God's timing.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on January 8, 2013 at 8:25pm

On the back of the book I am talking about it says, “Do you want to be extravagantly blessed by God? Are you ready to reach for the extraordinary? To ask God for the abundant blessings He longs to give you? Join Bruce Wilkinson to discover how the remarkable prayer of a little-known Bible hero can release God's favor, power, and protection. You'll see how one daily prayer can help you leave the past behind—and break through to the life you were meant to live.”

It makes me feel like I need to say that prayer every day, as if it is the key that would help me leave my past behind. That would be great. When I pray, even if I say the right words, and say them repetitively, does it mean that then God will give me those blessings? What about His Sovereign will for my life? What if all God has for me is just to meet my daily needs and not to bless me extravagantly? 
(I'm arguing against the book and not with you.) I think the book encourages wrong motives. But that's just my opinion. Many others say it works. 

As for the principles you have stated, if I pray that way, will God grant my requests? It could easily become a formula, too. I guess I'm very disillusioned with all of it now. I pray. Many times I don't receive my requests. Sometimes I do. I've never been able to pinpoint why.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on January 9, 2013 at 2:35am

You are correct. "The response" from God is technically not a principle, but the "actual response" in this case. The principle would be that God responds to our prayers, but not always in the affirmative as seen in these two verses of Scripture.

 

Lord Bless,
LT

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on January 9, 2013 at 2:18pm

See, the words "release God's favor, power, & protection" is just so wrong. God does as He wishes. It's not us with a magic wand telling Him what He can do or not do. They are using that one prayer like a magic potion to get what they desire. The Lord's prayer itself is a great example. It outlines how we should pray not a potion to release God's magical powers. Now, I do pray the Bible many times but just because David did such a good job doing it. hehe

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