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Jesus & the Holy Spirit
Did Jesus wait to preach until He was 30 because that was when He become filled with the Spirit after baptism? But, Jesus is the Spirit, right? I've just been thinking about this lately and going back & forth with it. I must admit that I haven't looked into it deeper on my own but just wanted to see your thoughts on it. Thanks
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Fasting and praying should not leave someone in a weakened state spiritually, should it?
Does fasting make us stronger or more dependent on Him? I do not see fasting as a spiritual strength exercise, but a time where we draw nearer to Him relying on Him. There are some physical benefits to fasting, but it also leaves us in a weakened state. This weakened state affects the way we think and process things. When the flesh longed for comfort after being in the dessert for 40 days Satan offered it with a catch. When His stomach desired nourishment Satan told Him to speak to the stones … etc. If Jesus was going to simply operate from His deity the journey to the dessert was for naught IMO.
I asked:
Did He veil His deity from Himself?
You said:
I assume you are asking did He veil from Himself that He was God. The answer is no. He knew who He was/is. He was, is, and always will be God. The veil, IMO, deals with the power of God including omnipresence and omniscience. For example He could not be everywhere at once while in the flesh.
I am still confused.
I can see where one might be confused, especially in the way I worded my comment. Let me take another stab at it. He knew He was God, yet chose to not operate in His own power (again, this is my view of it), but rather depend on the Holy Spirit. The veil deals with the setting aside of the abilities He possess as God in order to live as a man empowered by the Holy Spirit. He chose to lay His abilities aside, this does not mean they were not available or that He was no longer God.
I said:
It is difficult for me to think that Jesus could have had that kind of self-unawareness.
You asked:
Why not? I’ m curious why you think this.
I said it is difficult to think that Jesus had that much self unawareness, meaning not knowing He was deity while on earth.
My bad. I misread you comment. Read it as “self-awareness” and not “unawareness.” I absolutely believe He knew He was God.
Can God the Father and God the Son both do anything without Holy Spirit? What I mean is, the trinity is one God. Was the world and man and everything created by all three working together as One?At Jesus baptism we see what I think answers your question. The Son was there to be baptized, The Holy Spirit descended on Him and the Father spoke. All three where present and all three were active.
I did not respond to each piece. Some seemed to be more of a comment than a question. If I skipped over something that was important to you, just ask.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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Just one of my off the wall questions. Have you ever thought about when Jesus knew who He was? Was he like a 5 year old when He was 5 or had the mind of Christ? I've wondered about silly things like this that really don't matter but I've still wondered
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I pondeer all kinds of stuff. Some think the things I ponder are silly ... others think I am crazy. Both could be right ... hahaha.
To your question: If He, complete God and complete man, operated as a man dependent on the Holy Spirit that would lead me to believe that His human mind had to develop and receive input like ours. In other words He had to be educated and the account of His trip to the temple at age twelve speaks along those lines in Luke 2:53. This is pure specualtion, but probably about the time His memory kicked in, by that I mean we can only remember so far back in our life. Beyond that is blank.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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LT,
Thanks for the reply.
On more than one occasion, I have disagreed with you and then gone back a few weeks later and re-read our exchanges, and then said, Hmmm ... I guess he was right.
So maybe I should just do that right now :)
If I were smart, maybe.
I guess I can't see it from your POV because I think if Jesus knew He was God then that knowledge would contain all the attributes of Himself that make God who God is. He may have decided not to use them but that doesn't mean that He was unaware He had them. In fact, He said in Matthew 26:53, Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels?
It looks like He was aware of what He could do but chose to depend upon the Father and Holy Spirit, as you say.
As far as Jesus learning who He was or being taught We read this in John 7:
14 Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?”
16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
Regarding fasting, I have always seen it as bringing me spiritual strength. Fasting deprives the flesh and makes it weak but we are asked to walk in the Spirit and not the flesh. Jesus did not resist Satan in the strength of His flesh, if it is true that He was living as a man and relying only upon the power of the Holy Spirit. But whether Jesus resisted Satan's temptations through the power of the Holy Spirit, or by His own spirit, or, if, perhaps, that power is one and the same, then the journey in the flesh wasn't for nothing -- it was an example of Jesus bringing His human body under subjection, having self control, and that sort of thing. Jesus was hungry after fasting and Satan thought it was a perfect time to attack. The flesh surely is weak but not the Spirit.
You asked:
Does fasting make us stronger or more dependent on Him? I do not see fasting as a spiritual strength exercise, but a time where we draw nearer to Him relying on Him. There are some physical benefits to fasting, but it also leaves us in a weakened state. This weakened state affects the way we think and process things. When the flesh longed for comfort after being in the dessert for 40 days Satan offered it with a catch. When His stomach desired nourishment Satan told Him to speak to the stones … etc. If Jesus was going to simply operate from His deity the journey to the dessert was for naught IMO.
I see it as making us stronger spiritually because we are more dependent upon God and God's power and this spiritual strength comes to us as a result of drawing nearer to God through fasting and praying. Fasting is one way where God teaches us to rely upon God and not upon ourselves.
I think Jesus fasted in order to prepare Himself for the temptations, not to make it more difficult upon Himself.
Matthew 4: Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a] by the devil. 2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.” (NIV)
Was Jesus aware that He was going to be tempted? Did He fast to prepare Himself for it? I am of the opinion that yes is the answer.
But however Jesus resisted Satan, we know Jesus was relying upon God (whether it was of His own deity or of Holy Spirit) and not the flesh. Can we agree on that part? :)
This leads me to asking, Can we resist temptation on our own without God? I'm not really sure if we can or not. I know that Jesus told the sleeping disciples to watch and pray so that they will not fall into temptation. The spirit is willing, but the body is weak. It is best not to be tempted.
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I guess I can't see it from your POV because I think if Jesus knew He was God then that knowledge would contain all the attributes of Himself that make God who God is. He may have decided not to use them but that doesn't mean that He was unaware He had them.I did not say He was unaware as I believe He knew He was God in the flesh. I do not believe that we can fully understand what it means for Jesus to be complete god and complete man. Let’s use a different term for His power as God. He has all authority, but may choose to not use the authority and rely on the authority of another, the Holy Spirit. As I have stated from early on in this discussion, my view is debatable regarding Him operating as a man, while still being complete God and not relying on His deity. That is my view based on what I read in Scripture. What is not debatable is the fact that He is compete God and compete man.
As far as Jesus learning who He was or being taught We read this in John 7:
14 Not until halfway through the festival did Jesus go up to the temple courts and begin to teach. 15 The Jews there were amazed and asked, “How did this man get such learning without having been taught?”
This is the view of the religious leaders regarding Jesus. They are the ones making this statement similar to the statement made about Peter and John ... and they recognized they had been with Jesus.
16 Jesus answered, “My teaching is not my own. It comes from the one who sent me. 17 Anyone who chooses to do the will of God will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own. 18 Whoever speaks on their own does so to gain personal glory, but he who seeks the glory of the one who sent him is a man of truth; there is nothing false about him.
This goes to my point. If it is not His own then it had to be taught. Enlightenment is a form of teaching. The Holy Spirit teaches us regularly, even when we don’t realize it. Jesus acknowledges that He is speaking only what the one Who sent Him wants Him to say and do.
it was an example of Jesus bringing His human body under subjection, having self control, and that sort of thing.If He was operating from His deity then subjecting the flesh would not even be a question. But if He lived as a man and experienced what men experience as a man then subjecting the flesh would have value.
Jesus was hungry after fasting and Satan thought it was a perfect time to attack. The flesh surely is weak but not the Spirit.
Of deity one can say that, but can we truly say that of human beings? I understand the teaching relating to the strength in our spirit, but we also have the flesh and it cannot be overlooked that one subjected to repetitive torture breaks down physically and mentally. The spirit may be strong, but the connection with this world and our responses will be affected by the deprived flesh and in return have an effect on the fruit of the spirit apart from a supernatural work of God.
I think Jesus fasted in order to prepare Himself for the temptations, not to make it more difficult upon Himself.
Could be, but I think it was so that the temptation would have max value and thus He would experience the fullness of the temptation. If I have a full tummy there is no tempting me with a bowl of food.
Was Jesus aware that He was going to be tempted? Did He fast to prepare Himself for it? I am of the opinion that yes is the answer.
Could be He knew and the 40 days were preparation, the question is, was it to build strength or to really be in need when the temptations came. If by fasting He was doing great why do we read “Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.” (Mat. 4:11)?
But however Jesus resisted Satan, we know Jesus was relying upon God (whether it was of His own deity or of Holy Spirit) and not the flesh. Can we agree on that part? :)
I agree to a degree. The problem I have is in the wording here. He is God and thus if operating on His own He need not depend on God, for He is God, but If He subjected Himself as a man to the ways and principles of this world and required the help of the Comforter to overcome as a man He does two things. He gets the full experience of being a man that enables Him to operate as the High Priest with experience that associates with us and He sets the example of what God can do through a life surrendered to the will of the Father. With that last statement do not focus on the miracles that Jesus was prepared to do, but rather a life that did what the Father had planned for Him to do. Each of us will do different things as we are all part of God’s plan with pieces to accomplish.
This leads me to asking, Can we resist temptation on our own without God? I'm not really sure if we can or not.Romans 6-8 respond to this question. We can resist to a point, but cannot overcome without Christ.
Lord Bless,
LT
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After Jesus resisted Satan using spiritual strength, because His flesh was very weakened from the fast, physically, then the angels coming to Him to minister to Him makes sense to me.
We have Christ in us, the hope of glory. We are sealed and in dwelt with Holy Spirit. Are these two different things?
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Let me ask a question first. Is Jesus still in the resurrected flesh at the right hand of the Father awaiting the time He is to return and set up the millennial kingdom?
Lord Bless,
LT
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If He is in the flesh, how can He be "Christ n you, the hope of glory?"
Jesus is manifest in us by the Holy Spirit who, as the Comforter, does what He has been instructed to do for He does not act on His own, as Jesus did not act on His own. Thus, we understand that we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit and He manifests the presence of Christ in us and He is the agent of our transformation. How can this be? Some things are just a mystery. We can know in part, but are not privy to all the "how to" aspects of God's working.
Lord Bless,
LT
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My point in mentioning John 7 is that what Jesus taught came from God and was not taught to Jesus by man. I realize Jesus may have had to learn Who He was through receiving revelation from the Father and/or Holy Spirit but am of the opinion that He just knew on His own. I don't believe a rabbi or teacher helped Jesus figure out He was the Messiah, in other words. I can accept that the Father and Holy Spirit may have had to reveal this to Him when He was growing up.
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