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Jesus & the Holy Spirit
Did Jesus wait to preach until He was 30 because that was when He become filled with the Spirit after baptism? But, Jesus is the Spirit, right? I've just been thinking about this lately and going back & forth with it. I must admit that I haven't looked into it deeper on my own but just wanted to see your thoughts on it. Thanks
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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It is sorta funny isn’t it Char?,But when groups use “New Creation” and other references to the bible for identification; they will use them as “catch phrases” to give it that angelic connotation, and will draw people away from its true meaning. And unless they are living their lives to reflect its true meaning, to me is bordering on blasphemy. It would be like some group using as a name “Holy Spirit” To me it just wouldn’t set right. Call me old fashion if you will, but it seems this is in accord with the emergent church. It reminds me of a scripture, Eph.4:14,”that we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive… but speaking the truth in love, may grow up into Him in all things, which is the head, even Christ.
Blessings,
JB
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Char,
I’m sure you know this, but those that are questioning their salvation, has a lack of understanding the Spirit, Soul, and Body. I will attempt to explain it by using the scripture in 1Jo.4:17,”Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment, because as He is so are we in this world” Now when a person hears a message like this, he will immediately begin to examine himself to see if he really is like Jesus, he knows he is born again, but to look like Jesus? Well I don’t think so, when I look in my mirror, I’m still ugly as ever, balding, wrinkles, and with all kinds of other physical imperfections that we know Jesus doesn’t have.
But in our emotional realm, there’s depression, discouragement, anger, bitterness etc.; but we find very little of the God kind of love. Yet He says in 1Cor.6:17, “But he that is joined unto the Lord is one Spirit” In light of these obvious physical evidences, we would wonder, how can I be as Jesus is? Well we need to consider the fact: that the only part of us that can look like Jesus would be in our Spirit, this is the only part that got recreated, regenerated, and changed at the new birth. So it is not your body nor your soul, but your spirit that is as Jesus is.
Seems there are very few Christians that actually believe this reality! Sense the Spirit can’t be physically seen or emotionally felt, our physical evidence will win over our spiritual truths. “The Word” Without looking at ourselves in God’s spiritual mirror “The Word” to see who we really are in the spirit, we will just submit to what our senses tells us, and take that as reality. Ro.8, tells us to be Spiritually minded, not led by the senses; or carnal mindedness, because to be carnally minded is death, but to be Spiritually minded is life and peace. This is what most of us need at this time of year; we need to keep a positive attitude in these negative, worldly surroundings, and not allow our circumstances dictate our life and future.
Ro.8:37 says “Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through Him that loved us.”
Blessing to you,
JB
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Taminator and Char,
Would you like to have one of my books, I have 66 I would love to share with you.
They are all inspired, infallible, and inerrant.
JB
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Someone that you may find to be a blessing Char is Beth Moore, she is a beautiful woman of God.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Amanda,
Here is my response to your questions and comments in a new thread with your post in bold, including my comments you posted in bold and italicized.
I am praying for wisdom about this as I think it is very important for us to properly understand the two natures of Jesus.
Yes, it is important to understand that He is complete God and complete man as He makes up one individual ... God in the flesh.
As I study the Bible, I ask the Spirit to help me form the right questions to ask of those whom God has placed in authority – His under-shepherds – about a passage’s meaning.
That is good, but let me encourage you to do something if you are not already. Ask Holy Spirit to illuminate you as you read the text seeking His wisdom and guidance.
But a lot of the time I’m still not able to get across what I need or want answered … as you know … for we have gone round and round many times. Yet, in spite of it, I have learned some valuable truths from you, eternal security being one of them.
I am pleased that God has used me in some way to be of help to you :-)
First, you said:
In the context you put it regarding sin He does not use His deity to remain sinless ... He is deity. His actions can be by choice submitted to the working of the Holy Spirt.
I think this helps me sort out something. While I always believed that Jesus was impeccable on earth, I always thought Jesus resisted the devil from the strength of His divine nature.Think about this for a second. If He was going to do battle from His divine nature why go out into the dessert fasting for 40 days leaving Him in a weakened state in the flesh? If the divine nature was going to do battle the flesh accounted for nothing in this instance and the journey would be of no value.
We know Jesus did not battle the fallen flesh, so James 1:14 could never apply to Him, could it? What I mean is, Jesus could never suffer from that kind of temptation that comes from evil desires.
Correct. He could never be tempted by that which initiates from evil desires, but He could be tempted. A man without food for 40 days needs nourishment, even if the system has shut down to where a person may no longer recognize the need for it. Thus, food would be tempting. After 40 days in the hot and cold dessert sleeping on the ground with a rock as your pillow a nice comfortable bed would be appealing. These in of themselves need not be temptation caused by evil desire, but the cost for these things that Satan put on them was too high ...
As I have said, now I am wondering about my belief. God cannot sin and I guess it doesn't matter how much strength or power God has as far as sinning goes, for that is not what keeps God from sinning. God by definition can't sin. So what you have said helps me sort that out.
Excellent
You said:
1) I believe He was complete God and complete man while on earth and not just a man who was Spirit filled. He chose to veil His deity and operated from the human side and was empowered by the Holy Spirit to do the signs and wonders. He was never not God.This is probably a stupid question,
No question is stupid when the asker is truly seeking an answer.
Did He veil His deity from Himself?
I assume you are asking did He veil from Himself that He was God. The answer is no. He knew who He was/is. He was, is, and always will be God. The veil, IMO, deals with the power of God including omnipresence and omniscience. For example He could not be everywhere at once while in the flesh.
It is difficult for me to think that Jesus could have had that kind of self-unawareness.
Why not? I’ m curious why you think this.
But if Jesus veiled the attributes of His deity, such as being all-knowing and all seeing, then maybe He didn’t know He couldn’t give in to temptation.
Honest question: Why would this matter? If He knew that He would not or could not fail how does that change His life based on the purpose for which He came?
I said He was able to know hearts while on earth, to which you replied: How much of that knowledge was Spirit illiuminated? He once stated "Who touched me?" And proceeded to seek the answer to that question.
So, I am asking this:
If Jesus didn’t use His all knowing and all seeing attributes while on earth, would it mean that Jesus did not know that as deity He could not sin?Let’s use an illustration: You are able to see. Put on a blindfold and walk around for a day. Even though you have the blindfold on you are able to see. The only reason you cannot see, even though you know you can, is because of the blindfold. Remove the blindfold and all is visible as usual. Jesus can know He is God, be veiled and still be God knowing that when the veil is removed that He will see as clearly as before. With the blindfold in place He is limited and in this case a self-imposed limitation.
Some say if He could not truly sin then He was not truly fully human.
I really don’t like the “some say” scenarios. It is difficult to debate the straw man, but I will attempt to respond to a generic overview of a belief. Does it really matter what some say? The Bible says that He is the Word made flesh. Also read Philippians 2:6-8. That should be enough, but if we want to go further we can examine his human characteristics. He hungered, tired and His fleshly body was able to die.Others say if yielding to temptation was not possible, then it would make the whole encounter He ever had of being tempted just a sham.
That is human reasoning being applied to God. That usually does not work. The Bible tells us that He was tempted and as God He cannot sin. What the purpose of His temptation was had nothing to do with passing the test, but rather to allow Him to understand what we go through. He now operates as the High Priest in heaven on our behalf (Heb. 4:15 and chapters 7 and 8).
Others say Jesus was impeccable but didn't know He was -- didn't know He couldn't yield to temptation and He was unaware of the impossibility that as deity He could not sin because He was not using that all knowing attribute during His life on earth and then temptation was very real to Him in His own conscious experience.
The following verses tell us that He knew He was the Son of God, (Mat 26:63-64) “ But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God." (64) "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied. "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."” John 8 goes on to demonstrate His self-awareness and His dependence on the Father while on earth. He clearly acknowledges that He always does what pleases the Father (John 8:29).
But this opens the door to many, many more questions, such as did Jesus know who He was, or did He have to learn Who He was during His earthly life, and during His struggle in Gethsemane, did Jesus really not know that there was no other way, making the struggle very real in His conscious experience?
I believe He knew who He was from the beginning. This is evident from Luke 2:49. We do know that the Bibl talks about Him growing as described in Luke 2:53. This does not contradict the fact that He could be self-aware and yet still needed to grow as a man in wisdom because He was veiled.
You said:
2) What I do not teach as doctrine is only the part that it was the Holy Spirit that did all these things through Jesus. That is my opinion. I do teach that He was and is sinless and cannot sin, for He is God and was God. I do teach that God sees us as forgiven and sinless as His children. I do not teach prefection, but that we are being perfected and it is God's responsibility to finish what He started and ours to aspire for perfection.
Are you saying that Jesus did know He was deity but consciously chose to allow the Holy Spirit to work through Him?
The answer to this depends somewhat on the veil. Was the veil likened to that of a wedding gown that could be lifted or was the veil likened to be bound? We really don’t know. We do know that the Holy Spirit worked through Him and guided Him (Matthew 4:1; Luke 414 and Acts 10:38).
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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LT,
I know it is a busy time of year and there is no hurry for a reply. I appreciate what you have posted and here is my answer.
You said:
That is good, but let me encourage you to do something if you are not already. Ask Holy Spirit to illuminate you as you read the text seeking His wisdom and guidance.
Yes. I do this already. The Spirit does illuminate me.
You said:
Think about this for a second. If He was going to do battle from His divine nature why go out into the dessert fasting for 40 days leaving Him in a weakened state in the flesh? If the divine nature was going to do battle the flesh accounted for nothing in this instance and the journey would be of no value.
Fasting and praying should not leave someone in a weakened state spiritually, should it? Mark 9:29 indicates fasting and praying can get results. Jesus also quoted the Scriptures to counter Satan. Being connected to God is strength. Fasting, praying, knowing the Scriptures all make us spiritually strong and able to resist temptation. To say Jesus was in a weakened state ... I am unsure that He was. At least about His spiritual state. To say physical weakness makes one spiritually weak ... Well, It could be human reasoning being applied :)
You said:
No question is stupid when the asker is truly seeking an answer.
I am definitely truly seeking but am getting very tired now. It's been a long two years. :(
I asked:
Did He veil His deity from Himself?
You said:
I assume you are asking did He veil from Himself that He was God. The answer is no. He knew who He was/is. He was, is, and always will be God. The veil, IMO, deals with the power of God including omnipresence and omniscience. For example He could not be everywhere at once while in the flesh.
I am still confused.
I said:
It is difficult for me to think that Jesus could have had that kind of self-unawareness.
You asked:
Why not? I’ m curious why you think this.
I said it is difficult to think that Jesus had that much self unawareness, meaning not knowing He was deity while on earth. Why? Because the Gospels are filled with Him trying to persuade people of His identity. At the temple when Jesus asked them "Didn't you know I had to be in my Father's house?" I think they didn't understand what Jesus meant by Father's house. Well, it says "But they did not understand what he was saying to them." Luke 2:50. I think no one was used to God being referred to as Father. See John 7 and 8. They were ready to kill Jesus right then and there for His claims.
At the age of twelve he had already testified that God was his father. I am not sure if anyone ever referred to God as Father before Christ. Did anyone do this in the OT? Isn't that one of the things that made the Jews so mad at Jesus -- that He claimed to be God's Son and therefore claimed to be equal with God?
You said:
Let’s use an illustration: You are able to see. Put on a blindfold and walk around for a day. Even though you have the blindfold on you are able to see. The only reason you cannot see, even though you know you can, is because of the blindfold. Remove the blindfold and all is visible as usual. Jesus can know He is God, be veiled and still be God knowing that when the veil is removed that He will see as clearly as before. With the blindfold in place He is limited and in this case a self-imposed limitation.
I am confused. Are you saying He only partially veiled His attributes while here on earth or are you saying that He veiled them all completely but only veiled them for the short time that He was here on earth? I guess that part doesn't matter. He accomplished His mission. Someone else explained it this way -- that His life was ordained before the foundation of the world and before man was created. Jesus was ordained to save us from our sins and, in the light of all of that, it was impossible for Jesus to fail. The victory of Christ was ordained before it happened and how God did that is a mystery but not something I need to let worry me.
You said:
That is human reasoning being applied to God. That usually does not work. The Bible tells us that He was tempted and as God He cannot sin. What the purpose of His temptation was had nothing to do with passing the test, but rather to allow Him to understand what we go through. He now operates as the High Priest in heaven on our behalf (Heb. 4:15 and chapters 7 and 8).
Yes and this is how His all knowing and all seeing attributes would show Him exactly what our human experience is like, plus being fully man and feeling hungry, thirsty, tired, etc ... Is how He truly identified with our humanity. I can't imagine the things that Satan and demons threw in front of Him either. Probably much worse than evil desires that come from a fallen nature.
You said:
I believe He knew who He was from the beginning. This is evident from Luke 2:49. We do know that the Bibl talks about Him growing as described in Luke 2:53. This does not contradict the fact that He could be self-aware and yet still needed to grow as a man in wisdom because He was veiled.
The part about Him being veiled is where I am still confused. You ended by saying: We do know that the Holy Spirit worked through Him and guided Him (Matthew 4:1; Luke 414 and Acts 10:38).
Can God the Father and God the Son both do anything without Holy Spirit? What I mean is, the trinity is one God. Was the world and man and everything created by all three working together as One?
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