All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
The Providence of God, what is it?
What do we mean when we say an event is in God's Providence or caused by his providence? What does the bible teach us about God's providence?
Are there things that God does not or cannot control? Is there anything that God did not cause to happen? How much does God control and how much does He sit back and watch?
What is the extent of God’s control over His creation? "Providence" is not a word we commonly use today, a word that was well known years back. We even name a town providence, Providence, Rhode Island , but few people today are familiar with the word or it's meaning and teaching.
The providence of God has been viewed as the invisible hand of God in human events.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Mitch,
I will entertain your questions and answer them in hopes that this is the last time we post about these issues. We both have bigger fish to fry I am sure, than to spend time going back and forth about this. I understand that this is necessary for you, for us to go on, so here is my response.
>>Did you not mock me with your Snoopy cartoon?
Anyone on this site (@13000 members) can attest that I am the biggest goof ball on this site, forever kidding around, since God's Joy is by his Grace all over me, 99% of the time. :) I love to have fun as a child of God, so no, I have never mocked you. I am not sensitive at all for the most, to harsh comments, nor do I say things with malice in my heart, so at times I cannot imagine someone will take my comedian side as mockery or anything negative for that matter. I do try to be careful not to offend anyone, as much as that is possible, but there are things that are beyond my control. The snoopy cartoon is actually the picture for one of my groups here at AAG - see for yourself, it was meant to place a smile on your face. Again everyone here knows my sense of humor, so anyone can attest to that.
Theology Group
http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/theologygroup
You should definitely join my Apologetics group, which would be a great place for your "deliverance ministry" discussion. Feel free to join it. I would be making my rounds in it, if you do.
Apologetics - Above all else love one another
http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/allaboutgodnet
>>Did you not fail to understand the context regarding Pamela Meyer,
For the last time Mitch, No, I still think she meant to include the bible among literature that according to many, deceives us. Unless we ask her, we will not really know. That is your opinion and if all you want is to win this argument, well my brother, you win. No problem. I am not here to win. I am here for other God given purposes, but to win arguments etc is not one of them.
You could really offend people with your comments, again - you don't offend me, but you could really offend a young Christian in the faith with your offensive comments. You have used many offensive words towards me, but for the last time, I am not offended or hurt, but that does not make it right in your part. That is what I am concerned about, not myself. Your comments do not make me mad or control my reactions, for that is all I have control over.
Check this out - is very beautiful:
ATTITUDE
by: Charles Swindoll
The longer I live, the more I realize the impact of attitude on life.
Attitude, to me, is more important than facts. It is more important than the past, than education, than money, than circumstances, than failures, than successes, than what other people think or say or do. It is more important than appearance, giftedness or skill. It will make or break a company... a church... a home.
The remarkable thing is we have a choice every day regarding the attitude we will embrace for that day. We cannot change our past... we cannot change the fact that people will act in a certain way. We cannot change the inevitable. The only thing we can do is play on the one string we have, and that is our attitude... I am convinced that life is 10% what happens to me and 90% how I react to it.
We are in charge of our attitudes.>>And your pathetic apology statement to ice the cake, after I brought attention to your allusiveness, yet all conveniently scrubbed. Scripture declares He who covers his sins will not prosper.
The only thing that comes out of my heart as a response to your statements above is: God bless you Mitch, My Lord richly bless you. I hope the best for you bro. Continue to abide in the word, his word has the capacity to renew our mind.
>>So David, this may be hard for you, but don't tell me how much you love me but rather demonstrate it, as I am extending one more chance in which I have stated do the right thing.
Beloved I do apologize if I make you feel bad with my response here. Like you have said yourself - I am giving you tough love here. Is your pride so hurt that you insist on this? Like I said before, asking for forgiveness has never been hard for me, not a challenge in my life, but if I ask you for forgiveness, it would be a fake gesture, for my intentions have only been to love you. I rather turn this into a learning moment, since you insist on going back to this. In the cyber world people tend to be more easily offended, until we learn how to communicate via this mean. Unless you are an excellent writer, which I know I am not, it is very easy for others to assign a tone to your writing that was never intended by the author, not only a tone but a motive as well. You though that I was mocking you with the snoopy cartoon, when it was the complete opposite. I was trying to make you smile. You feel I am trying to demonize you etc... When nothing could be further from the truth. You my friend are letting your mind run while because you are offended. Come on now Mitch, God has thought you better than that. Always, always give people the benefit of the doubt, unless you can read the heart and mind of men, we do better, giving people grace and not assuming they are persecuting us or truying to offend us.
I do not know you. I do not. I have nothing to gain in insulting you and much to lose with my Lord and King, so my intentions have never been to hurt you, simply to keep AAG a healthy community. As LT said, we are not perfect and we do make mistakes. So we need you to be bigger than your offense, whether, intended or not, when you really don't know how the comment is meant, you should ask the author of the comment, how they mean their comment. You should have asked me if I meant the snoopy cartoon as mockery back when I posted it, instead of letting that fester inside of you. Well enough said.
If you have any more comments, I would rather you approach me in private, as I have done previously.
God bless you Mitch.
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Good morning Mitch,
>> To me this is a serious subject that must be grasped.
LT and I have been clear that we appreciate your zeal and passion on the subject. But the purpose of this site is not apologetics alone as much as we love to content for the truth. We have hundredths of discussions doing just that. But we have deleted and/or closed many were contending for the truth was harming the purpose and intent of the site. Although we as a community invest our time and effort, which is precious, we do not have a problem with discussions that turn problematic or unhealthy being erase, because we are not seeking our personal agenda primarily here, but rather we love God’s people and we are willing to let go of personal passions in secondary issues when pursuing them will cause division and or confusion. That would defeat the purpose of the NET.
This is what you said in the discussion that was erased, which you are now bringing up again. I ignored your comment in order to protect you as my brother in Christ, I now not look to embarrass you or hurt you in any way beloved, but I want you to see the error in your statements. I believe you are not misquoting LT and me maliciously, but that your zeal for the subject blinds you to the exact statements we made.
>>David first declared he was once possessed then seemed to back away from that late into the Deliverance Ministry discussion. LT claims there are "Good" deliverance ministries in which I contend there can't be (among Christian's).
Let me start by asking, is there any other biblical topic you enjoy discussing? This seems to be the only topic you enjoy.
Second you need to go back and reread the discussions for you are not representing me correctly. You need to pay attention to what you are reading beloved, so you do not misrepresent me or anyone else here, that can hurt people, don't worry you have never hurt me. I have by God's grace extremely thick skin.
Here is what I said, which remains posted for anyone to fact check: I have experience in a state of extreme disobedience, as a born again child of God, demonic penetration of my physical body. I have seen my body begin to transformed, change, but I immediately beged God not to permit it. I than began to vomit, which was getting rid of the demonic plasma in me. As a child of God I can never be fully possess, but personally I have experience possession as a child of God for the amount of time God allowed it. My position has not change. I am persuaded that a child of God can never be fully possessed, but he can be temporarily posses for as long as God permits. There are hundredth of testimonies of such a thing happening to born again believers who where in a state of extreme rebelliousness and around the demon posses.
LT has said over and over that there are good people on both sides of the topic and never to my knowledge said that there are good deliverance ministries, which by the way I have no problem personally believing that statement. I do believe there are good deliverance ministries out there, but as far as LT is concerned I do not believe he has stated that. Again, he has said that there are good people on both sides of the fence. Don’t you agree that there are good, godly people on both sides of the debate Mitch? Or only the ones holding your points of view.
You also previously stated the following which you again allude to on your latest comment:
>>After watching Pamela Meyer's video on deception once again it can easily be seen he is in error which I addressed earlier today, but still no response and curious how he will respond.
That you think it can easily be seen that I am in error is your opinion. I see how others can take the comment to mean different, but I still believe she meant the bible as well as the other works she quoted to be works that include deception/lies. You are free to believe what you want though. My response to Pam's comments is as legitimate as Amanda's understanding of it. So that is neither here nor there.
I would like to see you share on other discussion. Again you are not the authority on this subject.
Let me say this again: You do not know all there is to know about the delieverance ministry topic, you are not the authority in it, nor am I. The bible is the final authority, and the bible does not say that a child of God can be possessed or that He cannot be possess, temporarily or permanently. I believe only temporarily by God’s sovereign permission, if you will, when his kid is being a fool.
It seems that when it comes to this topic you only see what you want to see though, because of your previous painful experiences with it.
>>I responded in humility believing I had made a most serious error
If you have to tell anyone you are acting in humility I dare say you are not acting in humility. Humility is a lifestyle one doesn’t have to harp on, others make that call about our actions, primarily God and not ourselves.
>>After watching and listening closely the second time, I found David's statement to be in error.
That is your opinion and you have the freedom to believe so and expresses it. I still think she made a horrible statement and an uneducated one.
>>but with him being a moderator, he gets the last word doesn't he?
Yet, here you are expressing your views. You have not been persecuted or banned. But the interaction we are now engaging in is the interaction we want to avoid here at AAG. Is not healthy, nor is it edifying.
>>Furthermore, he insinuated I started another account (yet denied the accusation in the same statement) to "pat myself on the back" which demonstrates his insecurity, as I see it.
My brother, my brother. You are loved and appreciated here, but just not put up with, when you continue to cause strive among other members by your bashing of deliverance ministries. Where is your brotherly love then? I know, I know we can say that it is love that leads you to contend for the truth so radically, but on a secondary topic that has no bearing on anyone’s salvation, I do not see the need to be so forceful. I never said you started another account, but simply stated that we have seen a lot here and God always has the last word here.
>>I, for one, don't think he should moderate as his contempt for me shines through.
Brother you just cause me to love you even more for your comment here. I am sure you are not alone with your sentiments here, but praise God, that it is God who sets people where they should be at and not us ultimately. Again, you have the granted right here to express your sentiments. Thank you for doing so, but believe me when I say that I have absolutely nothing to be contempt with you about. Life is beautiful. I am so full of joy that this is the day that the Lord has made that I have nothing but love for every child of God, now, I will speak up, as you are, when I see something that is not conducive to the nourishment of the body of Christ here.
I thank God that the community knows my views on almost all mattes of theology, so there is no need for me to defend myself in what you are trying to portrait me as.
Mitch, my brother, enjoy your day beloved. The joy of the Lord is our strength. Enjoy this blessed community brother. Enjoy it; it is one more of God’s gift to his people.
Love and blessings to you brother.
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Char,
I actually believe the bible has been designed in such a way, for one of many purposes, one being that such designed forces us to mature to a level where we love one another beyond our secondary differences. Don't get me wrong, God wants us to have unity in the knowledge of his word, I am not saying different here, but above all things, he wants us to mature, to love one another.
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hahaaha you are funny, in a good way beloved. hahaha
The joy of the Lord - I tell you... hehe
For the most the bible is clear in major topics, which are not up for debate, but on secondary issues, well, just look around and you'll see we have hundredths of denominations.
On - guard soldier....
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Permalink Reply by Mitchell Sikich on
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Brother David,
I went back as you requested to answer you once again.
This will be my final statement to you before I move on to address or readdress this difficult issue in which is clear to me you would like to move on from, and which is understandable because of your stated beliefs in this discussion.
The following paragraphs are yours as you have mine in bold.
>>David first declared he was once possessed then seemed to back away from that late into the Deliverance Ministry discussion. LT claims there are "Good" deliverance ministries in which I contend there can't be (among Christian's).
Let me start by asking, is there any other biblical topic you enjoy discussing? This seems to be the only topic you enjoy.
Second you need to go back and reread the discussions for you are not representing me correctly. You need to pay attention to what you are reading beloved, so you do not misrepresent me or anyone else here, that can hurt people, don't worry you have never hurt me. I have by God's grace extremely thick skin.
David,
This is your very first response to the "Deliverance Ministry" discussion in which you make some rather contradictory statements, as I understand you.
All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Deliverance Ministries
Found out the security guard in my building is a charismatic Pastor. Got to talking and he works with a deliverance ministry. I am curious as to thoughts on this from his explanations and from my understanding of certain scripture.
What they do is tell evil spirits of oppression, bitterness, low self-esteem, deceipt, etc. that they must leave in the name of Jesus Christ. He says he's not talking about possession as we exist as a mind, body and soul and that Christ inhabits the soul but that evil spirits inhabit the mind and body.
Someone brought up 2 Corinthians 6:14 ....How can light live with darkness? And from his explanation, he's saying evil spirits dwell in the flesh and Christ in the soul and therefore they're not living together. I also wonder about Paul. He talks about warring with the flesh and I think, he never had anyone cast evil spirits out of him, and yet he does state in Romans 7:20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.
Some say you cannot be saved and have evil spirits and yet the Bible tells us over and over again that we're warring against powers and principalities...evil spirits. We are told to believe in what is unseen. Anyway I'm at a crossroads on my belief in this and wanted to gauge others reactions.Views: 2849
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Replies to This Discussion
Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
It's an extensive topic. One that has God fearing people on both sides of it.
God is everywhere, and Satan and his demons are around, and God does not stop abiding everywhere where the demons and Satan are. He is there too. God knows all the plans of the wicked. Demons can dwell in the flesh of born again believers, but not in the same manner as they do in unbelievers. I would have to get too personal and long winded to explain it, so I am not. As I said before on similar posts as this one, for a child of God to experience such things, it has been my experience (I am not talking scripture for I don't find any scriptural reference to turn you to), that a born again child of God has to be pretty much swimming in his own vomit and dancing in the mud, for God to allow such a thing, but is not the same as an unbeliever, it's different, at least from what I have seen. Even the time span that demons are allowed to dwell in a born again believer seems to be different and is not a common thing,it’s very uncommon, but because it does happened as God allows, doctrines (dogmas) are created from those experiences and as we tend to do, we take it to extremes that are not healthy or biblical.
I examine all things against scripture and if it's not in scripture I leave it alone, but I have seen things that are not in scripture happen and unless I had seen them and experience them, I would not believe them.
People can be demon posses, that should not be an issue for us to believe, that still happens today way more than we would like to believe, especially among people who worship Satan and people involve in nasty sins (yes – I know sin is sin, but not all sin is morally equal).
I do not personally agree with many deliverance ministries. Due to the lack of scripture in such matters (which its adherents will not agree with me, quoting various scriptures to make their case) and the taking out of context of the ones used, but I cannot honestly tell you that God has not worked through imperfect practices to give grace/deliverance to his children needing it.
It's a difficult topic. I have mix feelings about commenting on it, because I am not for it for the most, due to so much abuse of scripture among those that practice deliverance. Its unhealthy extremes also may harm more than help and many are deceived by the many charlatans among such movements. Yet some people whether believers or not (mainly unbelievers) are posses and need men of God who do not run from such situations, but rather stand in the authority God gives us against principalities and help some very hurt people. There are Godly man, living holy lives (not perfect), but holy lives none the less, that God uses in such matters. As believers, we all have such authority, if our relationship with Christ is a vibrant one.
David,
Can you clearly now state your position without going into lengthy elaborations as you seem both for and against deliverance ministry which is confusing to me.
I have stated over and over that I am opposed to it for many reason's however you simply interrupt asking me to stop "attacking" them.
If their teachings contradict clearly known passages then are you not protecting what can be construed as evil and divisive in itself?
In Truth,
Mitchell
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Mitchell,
I was not asking you or anyone to go back and fact check the comments, to continue with a topic that does not belong in this discussion, but simply to fact check.
Please start your own discussion about the deliverance ministry topic, if you like. Whoever wants to speak about the topic will then join in. I have been extremely clear with my beliefs, so I will not go over the obvious once again. There are no contradictions in my statements, not one. Start your own discussion about the topic either in the apologetics group or here on the forums, but I will not discuss this in a discussion that has nothing to do with the deliverance ministry issues.
Do look up what a genuine contradiction is, for your own edification, not to come back to this discussion and share, but simply for your own understanding.
>>This will be my final statement to you before I move on to address or readdress this difficult issue in which is clear to me you would like to move on from, and which is understandable because of your stated beliefs in this discussion.
I am very happy to read that that was your final statement. Thank you.
I look forward to sharing if and when you start a discussion of the subject.
God bless you Mitch.
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I stopped following this discussion a long time ago. It got tired. Why is is always so important for some to be right or have the desire for others to think they are. I know for me, I'm with you & LT. This subject is just tired. Go on a forum of apologetics that gets deeper into it. That's not the purpose on here. Luv u guys & all you do.
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Taminator,
Thanks for your thoughts.
This is tiring yes. I'm trying to address personal attacks on my ability to read, and comprehend what I read.
Sorry to torture you once more.
I will move on, however, I do hold people accountable and do/will forgive at the proper time.
Mitch
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Char,
I believe you are mistaken here. I have received more than a snide remark by you Char, even in my attempt to help you. Your latest remark, not to worry about you frankly does worry me. I hope it is the Holy Spirit who is guiding you and not the spirit of error. http://bible.cc/1_john/4-6.htm
Please notice what the Bible does clearly say with the emphasis on (if) they repent, as it relates to forgiveness. http://bible.cc/luke/17-3.htm
I am simply looking for true and sincere remorse and allowing for the one held accountable to respond.
So the (if ) is predicated by a hopeful response for at least a small period of time, so that the hearer may truly hear what has been said. If we fail to hold one accountable then we are simply being lazy and will/may allow an abuser to continue to abuse, or a liar to keep on lying,or a murderer to keep on murdering, or an adulterer to ...etc.
A change of behavior is the hopeful outcome with genuine reconciliation.
I hope I have been clear and understood.
There is something to be said of Matthew 18:15-17. http://www.resolvechurchconflict.com/church_discipline.htm
His,
Mitch
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Mitch,
I have tried to give you some good advice on how to interact on AAG and you simply keep missing the mark. I asked you to not attack the poster and you crossed the line by calling Char's remarks "Snide." I have asked you to state your view and move on, to quit pushing, but you keep pushing. I am going to give you one more chance, but first I want you to take 72 hours off and not post anything on AAG, that is until 9:00 PM EST Friday. If you ignore this I will suspend you from AAG. After 9 PM Friday I need to see adjusments in your interaction. I am and have given you more opportunity on AAG than usual. I hope you make the best of it, but this cannot continue the way it is currently going.
Lord Bless,
LT
TheNET Coordinator
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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How does the providence of God factor into the statistics for violent crimes in the USA? Out of 1,203,564 violent crimes that were reported in 2011, I am certain some of them were true believers. Keep in mind, these stats do not account for the violent crimes that went unreported or the missing people whom no one knows what violence they suffered or are suffering.
Violent Crime
Definition
In the FBI’s Uniform Crime Reporting (UCR) Program, violent crime is composed of four offenses: murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault. Violent crimes are defined in the UCR Program as those offenses which involve force or threat of force.Data collection
The data presented in Crime in the United States reflect the Hierarchy Rule, which requires that only the most serious offense in a multiple-offense criminal incident be counted. The descending order of UCR violent crimes are murder and nonnegligent manslaughter, forcible rape, robbery, and aggravated assault, followed by the property crimes of burglary, larceny-theft, and motor vehicle theft. Although arson is also a property crime, the Hierarchy Rule does not apply to the offense of arson. In cases in which an arson occurs in conjunction with another violent or property crime, both crimes are reported, the arson and the additional crime.Overview
■In 2011, an estimated 1,203,564 violent crimes occurred nationwide, a decrease of 3.8 percent from the 2010 estimate.
■When considering 5- and 10-year trends, the 2011 estimated violent crime total was 15.4 percent below the 2007 level and 15.5 percent below the 2002 level.
■There were an estimated 386.3 violent crimes per 100,000 inhabitants in 2011.
■Aggravated assaults accounted for the highest number of violent crimes reported to law enforcement at 62.4 percent. Robbery comprised 29.4 percent of violent crimes, forcible rape accounted for 6.9 percent, and murder accounted for 1.2 percent of estimated violent crimes in 2011.
■Information collected regarding type of weapon showed that firearms were used in 67.7 percent of the nation’s murders, 41.3 percent of robberies, and 21.2 percent of aggravated assaults. (Weapons data are not collected for forcible rape.)http://www.fbi.gov/about-us/cjis/ucr/crime-in-the-u.s/2011/crime-in...
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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I know this is not the same compared to the damage done to those victims. But, because I stuttered so badly as a child, I learned to listen. And, at school if it was because of my ADHD teachers yelled at me, " to be quiet and listen." Did these things help me listen and hear the Spirit better? I do not know, yet if they did I can better deal with those parts of my past. Due to my disability I was home, at a time when the last three children were still at home. Did this help them keep out of more trouble? Again, I do not know, but if for their sake, I can be more at peace with my situation. I do not know why so many bad things happen to people {good or bad}, yet I know His Love and Wisdom is beyond my understanding. To know He has a Plan does bring Peace. His Peace that if He did not have a plan, only confusion and angry would rule.
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