The beginning of persecution in America?

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 4, 2012 at 2:52am

Mischelle,

I can see both sides of the issue. Seems to me at face value, that a person should be able to have *whomever* as a guest in their home.

However, there is the legal issue as well. Phoenix has building code and ordinances that need to be followed. It appears that this man didn't follow them. Apparently. The issue is the fact that it is a seperate building. He is a preacher. The city's thinking is that if he preaches and has built a building, it must have been to preach in. Thus, they are saying it must follow the building code for churches. If they had attached this building to their home there probably wouldn't have been an issue. (If they,Phoenix judges, entered the building, they would (by his own words) see that is set up for church services.)

He built a building seperate from his house, decorated in a church like fashion, and is using it for Bible study...not the *rec room* that he portrayed. Even to my uneducated ears it sounds like a church. Therefore, I also believe he should have built it according to church standards by Phoenix' definition. Or...undecorate it and attach it to the house.

His intent was to use it for a gathering place...clearly for church services.

In MHO, I would have to rule for Phoenix.

Unfortunately, just because a person is a Christian, he/she might not be right. This man left himself wide open for problems. We are told to obey the laws of the land. He clearly didn't.

Blessings...

Rita

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Permalink Reply by JB on July 4, 2012 at 9:24pm

Michelle, would things have been different if at the beginning you would have approached the City for a building permit with the intended use of the building in mind? Or was the intended use to be for recreation, but later decided to convert it to activities of a church; or for other purposes?

Seems from my POV, it was set up as a deception so as to get the building approved by the City; maybe thinking the City would be just a little more lenient with the inspections if it was   deemed to be a rec-room, rather than a place for congregating, or for other purposes?

Believe me I am a builder, and we must abide by the building codes of the various Cities and Counties we build in. We are first instructed as Christians to abide by the laws of the land, but if those laws are contrary or conflicting with the laws of God, then we obey God’s laws.

If I am misreading this, then I ask your forgiveness.

Joe

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Permalink Reply by feet breath on July 5, 2012 at 5:59pm

Friend, I got this from another Christian forum http://www.christianpost.com/news/ariz-preacher-sentenced-to-jail-a... Someone posted that link showing that it was dishonesty...

 

 

But, yes Christian persecution is in America. Have you read "Speechless Silencing the Christians"?  And that book is atleast 2 in a half/3 years old.

 

A boy threatened to crucify another Christian (I was in 12th grade) and catch the person on fire. A staff member said "You shouldn't say the name of God in school you should be ashamed of yourself." That was when I was in 11th grade. When I was in 10th grade they had a play about a guy selling his soul to the devil for A Yankee's game...

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 6, 2012 at 4:45am

Mischelle,

I spoke with another building contractor about this situation. He told me that he never builds a building without first looking to the building code regarding the purpose the building is being erected. Joe responded with that, as well.

God tells us to abide by the laws that the goverment sets forth. The building code isn't something that goes against Christians. It is put in place for the protection of the people that are using it. It is for the good of one and all. How will the pastor handle the situation if someone is injured on his property, in his *rec room*? Will he then say the law suit that results is because he is a Christian?

I recently watched a video where there was a riot started in a Michigan between Moslems and Christians. The Christians were complaining that they were harassed by the police, but...I believe it was at a Moslem celebration. If that is correct, they (Christians)didn't have a right to be there in the first place. We all want freedom of religion, but...we don't want others to have the right to practice their religion. That isn't a godly attitude from my POV. Just as God gives us free will, He gave it to all others as well.  We need to allow them to practice it.

God expects us to worship and do it in the right way. There is no Glory to God when we, as His children, act unbecoming what Christianity is. It is a difficult thing to have to say this pastor *brother and sister* are wrong, but...I believe they are wrong.

 BTW, I have held Bible Studies at my home in the past and never had anyone complain about them, law or otherwise.

Blessings...

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 8, 2012 at 4:09pm

I have seen videos like this before where they were "harassing" a man for preaching on a strip mall. They taped it because they knew they would have trouble. Needless to say, it made us Christians look like complete idiots. In reality, it appeared to me that the Christians were taunting the cops & daring them to arrest him, which they did, which he deserved. I don't feel this dude is telling the whole story about them harassing him in his home. There is something else here that we're not being told.  I'm not going to say anything about his deception that everyone has commented on. What I feel is he taunted the cops in some form or fashion to begin with & taunted them in some way. I don't know what or how but the Lord tells us to test the spirit & as of this moment, he's failed the test. Just my opinion.

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Permalink Reply by Colby on July 8, 2012 at 7:40pm

Mischelle,

The video presents only one side of the issue.  Therefore, we must be careful before coming to any conclusion that the Salmans are the victims of unjust religious persecution at the hands of the City of Phoenix, Arizona.

The Salmans apparently violated the building and zoning codes of Phoenix, with which all builders and lawndowners (including churches and other religious or nonprofit organizations) must comply.  Other Christian churches have willingly complied with the law in this regard, submitting plans for church building construction to the city for approval, operating freely and open as places of worship and without interference.

Further, they may have willfully and intentionally deceived the City of Phoenix by falsifying information on their building permit application, calling a small church they constructed separately on their property a "game room," in order to get it approved.  If true, I find this particularly disturbing.  It calls into question the Salmans' credibility.

As Christians and as citizens, we must the obey the laws of our governing authorities provided, however, that they do not violate God's laws.   In Romans 13:1-7, Paul the apostle outlines the Christian's responsiblity with regard to obeying laws and government officials.

• "Everyone must submit to governing authorities. For all authority comes from God, and those in positions of authority have been placed there by God. So anyone who rebels against authority is rebelling against what God has instituted, and they will be punished."

 

Some other things to consider as we review the Salmans' claim that they are being unjustly persecuted for religious easons.

 

• Their dispute with the City of Phoenix goes back to 2007.  That being so, are there other examples in Phoenix that suggest a systematic and deliberate pattern of religious persecution by local authorities is underway?  If so, what are they?  Which other churches or pastors have been targeted?  If not, why have the Salmans apparently been singled out?
  
  
• Is this an example of overly zealous local authorities attempting to quash a "small" in-house Bible study or home church in violation of our constitutional right to religious freedom, with wider and potentially disturbing ramifications for Christians everywhere?

 

• Or did the Salmans bring it on themselves?  Did they deliberately flaunt the city's building and zone codes by blatantly misrepresenting as a "game room" a separate building they were constructing on their property intended to be used as a small church, thereby deceiving the city when it granted its approval?  Is what they did "right" in God's eyes, or did they go against God's Word in Romans 13?  Why or why not?

 

• Have other Christian pastors and their congregations reacted with outrage and protest against the City of Phoenix, joining forces in lending their unqualified support to the Salmans?
  
  
• Have any prominent Christian parachurch organizations, such as the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLG), taken up the cause of, and provided a legal defense for, the Salmans?

Thank you for bringing this matter to our attention and seeking out our opinions.  I have enjoyed reading the responses that have been posted, as each sheds some much needed light on the questions at hand.

Your brother and servant in Christ,

Colby

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 8, 2012 at 8:17pm

Colby,

Awesome as always. 

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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 10, 2012 at 10:29pm

Hi Mischelle,

Thank you for your post that we might examine the facts in this so-called persecution of the church of Jesus Christ.

This man was not arrested (if he really was arrested)  for preaching and teaching the Gospel.......He is guilty of breaking municipal law by violating building and/or zoning codes. Thanks, Colby for the reference in Romans 13.

All he's giving is his side of the story. I agree with several here who are wondering what the rest of the story is........

including back in 2007.

 

Mischelle, I think the Biblical passage you're thinking about 

is found in Acts 4: 18-20," So they called them and commanded them not to speak at all nor teach in the name of Jesus. (19)But Peter and John answered and said to them, "Whether it is right in the sight of God  to listen to you more than God, you judge. (20)But we cannot but speak the things which we have seen and heard."

The apostles were being threatened for actively witnessing God's Word. They were being commanded

 to cease and desist. So, they were going to ignore the law of  forbidding to speak in Jesus's name........ because God's law superceded man's law.

Peter and John were not going to be arrested because of zoning codes...........

This pastor was not going to be arrested for preaching and teaching God's Word..........

 

So, my interpretation of this situation is: This pastor cannot legally stand on this passage in Acts......because it obviously does not pertain to him and his position. The city is not prohibiting him from preaching or teaching God's Word........the city is merely not allowing him to do it against the law. As has been mentioned, there are valid reasons for city codes.

 

Now....is Christ's church being persecuted in the world? In the United States?? OH YES!!!

Look what's happened in the public schools since 1962.....when the Supreme Court banned open prayer in the schools......how about Winter Break instead of Christmas Break? Spring Break, rather than Easter Break......

Military chaplains being forbidden to pray in Jesus's name......and on and on and on......

And it's gonna get worse, because Jesus told us it will.

 

" I have told you these things that in Me you might have peace. In the world you will have tribulation, but be of good cheer, for I have overcome the world." (John 16:33).

 

Grace and Peace.

 

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 12, 2012 at 5:18pm

Amen Richard

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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 10, 2012 at 11:17pm

 

We are all saved by grace and we all still blow it in various ways. We all still need God's grace, praise God we have it. The couple in the vid, our family in Christ, seemed to have not done everything perfectly, but they remain our family.

Let's pray for them, that the bro will be used by God to bring some inmates into the Kingdome.

 

I like the guy and I am sure God will work this for his good, just like He works our silly mistakes for his glory and I realize no one is saying any different here, but this knuckle head is family and a servant of our Lord. Jacob, Abraham, Moses etc etc were knuckle heads too haha, oh and me, pray for me too hahaha

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Permalink Reply by Tammy on July 11, 2012 at 4:12pm

David,

Mischelle asked for our input so me, personally, stated mine. I totally agree that we should pray for them. They are our family. It's just situations like this that puts another black eye on the Christians. When the man calls himself a minister but yet deceives the council based on a lie, how does it make us look? This is one of those situations where Hebrews 6:6 could apply. if they fall away, to be brought back to repentance, because to their loss they are crucifying the Son of God all over again and subjecting him to public disgrace. I'll pray for your knuckle head as well. :)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 13, 2012 at 9:13am

David,

I have done some research on this since it has caught the attention of quite a few people. There are no reports of the city abusing any other church or group that I am aware of. He appears to use deceptive logic in his defense. Everyone who attends the church I pastor is family in Christ and friends. What if his "friends list" grows to be 120 or 200?

 

He chose to apply for permits under false pretense. What does this say to the world about the church when we just disregard laws because we don't like them or agree with them? I am sure that He could build a church or rent a facility in the right location with the right permits. Being a church planter I understand the frustration of working through redtape, but there is a process and right way to proceed in order to accomplish the mission and hold a good testimony in the process.

 

We obey God over man and rebel against man when it is a clear viloation of God and His way. This guy could have obeyed God and man, but chose not to play by the rules that protect the city and also protect the church.

 

Let's turn the logic around. What if a man wanted to build a "rec building" in his backyard near a daycare or elementary school and have nude dancers doing their thing 24/7? The facility will function just like a nude bar, but he will only invite "friends" over. Is this OK? (I assume that this businees is legal there as it is in many cities, regardless it is given to make a point).  What we sometimes see as restrictive often go a long way to protect us in the end.

 

My two cents.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

 

 

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