CALVINISM AND ARMINISM REVISITED

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on June 26, 2012 at 3:18pm

 

This was a nice surprise - TD Jakes got this right.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on June 26, 2012 at 9:43pm

He's got a plan! How do you find these?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 2, 2012 at 2:38pm

Nothing just happens My brother Roy hahaha, so God guides me to them as I listen to messages on YouTube by folks that I like to listen to. I don't like giving my opinion on any servant of my God unless I have spent some real time researching them. As I do research on brother,  I discover diamonds among my brothers who are highly criticize by many other brothers in the body.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on June 26, 2012 at 10:08pm

Greetings brother David,

 

O.k.......yes I could post some more of my views....and I will......when I have time.

I still think we are closer than some folks think.

Good to hear from you, Bro.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 1, 2012 at 7:09pm

Hello my brothers and sisters,

 

Okay, David, we agree about God choosing "righteous" people to be His in the Old Testament.

And.......we agree (I think) about Jesus's parable in Luke 16 being more factual than people think.

And....... we agree about Jesus, in the spirit, going to the place of the dead, and preaching to the righteous

souls there ( 1 Peter & Ephesians 4).......thereby releasing the prisoners, as described in Luke 4:18-19.

I don't know for sure if we agree about that............

 

I agree with you about the Holy Spirit's mission to "come along side" (parakletos) and convict/convince a person

to come to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

Do you think that sometimes/many times....the person is not convicted?

We know that it's God's will that everyone would come to a saving relationship with His Son.

 

David (is Dave o.k.?), I still think that there is some choice somewhere along the way in our relationship with God through Christ.........

I've seen so many people answer the invitation....and be all fired up with Jesus.....and fall by the wayside. (Matthew, Chapter 13).

 

Are you saying that when God chooses a person.....that person never falls away? 

See.......one of my questions is - In Revelation, Chapters 2 and 3......in every one of the 7 letters to the 7 churches......Jesus emphatically encourages members to overcome  (nike). Do you think that there will (would) be no one in those churches chosen by God?

That's all for now, Bro.

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 2, 2012 at 7:35am

Richard,

Very good questions. I have thoughts on your questions but looking forward to David's responses. Judas Iscariot is one that appeared to be chosen but was lost. Did Jesus make a mistake or was this ordained by God?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 2, 2012 at 2:38pm

Hello my brother Rich,

 

>>…we agree about God choosing "righteous" people to be His in the Old Testament.

 

Well, we would have to define righteous people. I agree that God has chosen a people to save before the foundations of the earth solely upon his will, purpose and good pleasure. Apart from the creature's will and works, God has predestined those He will save. The death of Christ on the cross did not just make salvation available to a condemned world, but saved the Elect of God.

 

There is none righteous, no not one, so God was choosing spiritually dead people to saved them. There have never been any righteous people on earth apart from the imputed righteousness of Christ upon a person, for both Old and New Testaments.

 

>>>and.......we agree (I think) about Jesus's parable in Luke 16 being more factual than people think.

 

I agree that Luke 16 is not a parable, but an actual depiction of the Spiritual world. I have no problem stating that I do not fully grasp all the implications presented in the story, but I believe it to be a true account. Personally beloved, I do not think is wise to use passages which are very obscure and have acquired multiple interpretations due to their complexity to decipher. In other words, I strongly suggest that we stay away from passages that are not very clear. There are other passages that are clearly speaking about election, predestination etc…We do not clearly know what Christ did for the three days between His death and resurrection. It seems that He was preaching victory over the fallen angels and/or unbelievers. Parading the defeated armies of Satan like a Roman victory parade of Old. God descended when Christ emptied himself, Philippians 2:7, but then Christ ascended, leading captivity, not saints, but captivity captive. Jesus ascended gloriously.

 

>>And....... we agree about Jesus, in the spirit, going to the place of the dead, and preaching to the righteous.

 

I do not believe that He preached to the righteous. I believe that He preached to the demons chained up. He made a mockery of them. Colossians 2:15

 

>>souls there ( 1 Peter & Ephesians 4).......thereby releasing the prisoners, as described in Luke 4:18-19.

 

I do not think that Luke has any connection to 1 Peter.

 

>>I agree with you about the Holy Spirit's mission to "come along side" (parakletos) and convict/convince a person to come to the Lord Jesus Christ for salvation.

 

The Holy Spirit not only brings conviction to those God the Father draws and effectually calls, but regenerates men. Enabling them to believe, by bringing them to life. The process in the outside may be unique to the individual, but the same work in each person is being done in the interior. See John 3, the Spirit comes and goes as He wishes.

 

>>Do you think that sometimes/many times....the person is not convicted?

 

I think God convicts every single human being that has ever existed of their sins, but men choose to worship numerous things rather than to surrender their liberties.

 

>>We know that it's God's will that everyone would come to a saving relationship with His Son.

 

We know that is his will of disposition. In other words, that is his desire. But is not His decreed will, otherwise all men would be saved.

 

>>David (is Dave o.k.?), I still think that there is some choice somewhere along the way in our relationship with God through Christ.........

 

Dave is ok beloved. There is absolutely “choice” involved my brother. I came to Christ willingly, once Christ had regenerated me. He first worked in me by effectually drawing me to himself. By persuading my intellect and showing me my sin to be sin and causing me to repent.  God overcomes the resistance of those He calls unto salvation and saves them by their own choice once they see their condition of needing a savior. We only see our need once we see. But why if I am born again already by the Spirit do I need to repent, because that is how God has ordained salvation.

 

>>Are you saying that when God chooses a person.....that person never falls away? 

 

That is absolutely correct. A born again believer never stops being a born again believer, but that born again believer can live a life style that brings blasphemy to the God for as long as God allows him to remain in such a defeated state. The children of God are kept by God, not from falling into sin (thought He does keep us from sin innumerable times), but from ever falling away from his love and care.

 

>>See.......one of my questions is - In Revelation, Chapters 2 and 3......in every one of the 7 letters to the 7 churches......Jesus emphatically encourages members to overcome  (nike). Do you think that there will (would) be no one in those churches chosen by God?

 

There is NO contradiction in God keeping us and His commandments to us, to overcome the world. He also encourages us to work out our salvation. That means to make our internal salvation evident to the external world. Show me your faith without works and I will show you my faith with works, for genuine faith works out our salvation from the inside to the outside. Hallelujah…. Only the truth sets us free. haha

Grace and Peace back at you my brother. We cannot have peace if grace doesn’t come first.

 

Permalink Reply by RoyW on July 3, 2012 at 9:36am

Excellent! David I am inspired. I don't know how you got this but God really did give you understanding. I pray that you will be able to lead many to be able to understand their position in Christ. Some do not want to think of themselves as being so special. I say, "Yay!"

Many believe in the idea of prevenient grace. This idea states that God attends each individual with enough grace and understanding to choose whether or not they will follow Christ. I grew up in a Wesleyan environment where this idea is so predominant. Many wonderful Christian friends of mine believe in this. I have said over the last thirty some years that if He had left it up to me, I would not have made it. For me, He had to do it all. I was saved by His grace and not by my own decision or will. I agree that we choose Him but that choice is really no choice at all. Who, once knowing Him and His love, could ever turn Him down.

Christ died for my sins and rose on the third day. Then, He gloriously awakened my completely dead spirit and revealed Himself in glory. I am alive in Him. It is very difficult for me to see my part in the choosing. For me, there was no choice. Once You believe in Him, the deal is done - signed, sealed and delivered.

I love all my Christian friends that do not see it this way. Yet, I see myself as gloriously saved. I take no credit to myself whatsoever. I give Him 100% of the credit. I do not understand it but I am hoping that some will listen and consider the verses that scream to them how special they are to our Creator God.

Blessing to you.

Roy

By the way, Steve and Christy had their first child this morning at 1:30.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 3, 2012 at 2:06pm

Roy - Thank you for the kind words my friend.

 

Steve is a Daddy now, wow! You have a blessed and large family my brother, God has truly blessed you.

 

A good friend just sends me this verse:

Titus 3:5

New International Version (NIV)

⁵ he saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit,

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 10, 2012 at 9:27pm

Greetings my Brothers and Sisters, in love.........

 

Our Biblical  interpretations continue to vary(what's new regarding this subject?)

At this point, I'm ready to forego any more discussion....on my part.....until we all get to heaven...... when you will see who's right....ha-ha.

I love you guys........Grace and Peace.

 

 

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on July 10, 2012 at 11:31pm

What, come  on now Rich, you started it hahaha

 

Just kidding beloved - is all good my bro. Love and blessings to you.

Permalink Reply by Colby on January 25, 2013 at 12:31pm

A fascinating discussion to read from start to finish.  Kudos to all!

        Calvinism/Reformed Theology and Wesleyan/Arminian Theology are useful labels that summarize the point of view that many Christians have regarding the order of salvation and man's nature.  They represent the two largest camps, but there are many Christians, including Lutherans, that are outside both.

• In the Calvinist camp are Presbyterians, Reformed churches, and many Baptists.
• In the Arminian camp are: Methodists, Nazarenes, Pentecostals, Wesleyan and Holiness churches, and some Baptists.

        First and foremost, Arminians and Calvinists are Christians.  They are not followers per se of Jacobus Arminius or John Calvin, both prominent Protestant reformers.  Many Calvinists and Arminians haven't the slightest idea who these men are and have not read their voluminous writings.  They came to share the same beliefs based on their denominational upbringing and/or their own reading of the Bible.

        Are they both correct?  Well, each camp appeals to the Holy Scriptures and is able to compile an impressive array of verses to make its case.  But, they can't both be right as they are, in key respects, incompatible and contradictory stances.  They interpret the same Scriptures differently to arrive at different conclusions.   

Christians can debate vigorously their respective positions (iron sharpens iron), but we  need not divide over their differences.  Here is why.

        Both agree with the clear biblical teaching that 1) God desires all to be saved (although not all are saved); and 2) salvation is by grace alone through faith alone in Jesus Christ alone.  

        Both apprehend God's sovereignty and grace from the Holy Scriptures, but differ in emphasis.  I would say that Calvinists emphasize God's sovereignty and Arminians God's grace.

        They differ principally in how they understand man's nature and the order or sequence of salvation, including how we come to faith.  It is admittedly a gross oversimplification, but from my perspective, the following questions highlight the key differences.

• Is faith it God's gift to us, or our gift to God?

• Do we choose God, or does God choose us to be saved? 

• If God chooses us, is it because of his good pleasure or because he knows in advance the choices we will make?

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