All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Free Will
If God has already determined who his "children" will be; and who are "written in the book of life" Then how is that we have the choice of Free Will? If God determined that Juda would betray Jesus, so that the scriptures would be fullfilled; then obviously this apostle did not have "free will" did he? And if we sin and then repent our sins to God; did we not make the free will choice to go off into the darkness? What about those who have lived a sinful life, chosing to do wrong and then be changed through ministery and decided to change their life and live for God? I have a difficult time believing that my sins are those of God's will. I guess I have become confussed on this matter, when reading about the crusifiction of our Lord Jesus.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Carla on
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Hi Mandy,
I am blessed to answer this question for you.
Exodus 32:32-33 NLT says this:
32 But now, please forgive their sin--and if not, then blot me out of the record you are keeping."
33 The LORD replied to Moses,
"I will blot out whoever has sinned against me.
The Lord tells us, that everyone who rejects Him, will have their name erased from the book of life. Which seems to be saying, we are all there to begin with---it's up to us by our own free will if we choose to accept Jesus or not.
REvelation 20:12-15
12 I saw the dead, both great and small, standing before God's throne. And the books were opened, including the Book of Life. And the dead were judged according to the things written in the books, according to what they had done.
13 The sea gave up the dead in it, and death and the grave* gave up the dead in them. They were all judged according to their deeds.1
14 And death and the grave were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death--the lake of fire.
15 And anyone whose name was not found recorded in the Book of Life was thrown into the lake of fire.
At the judgement the books will be opened. The book of life contains the names of people whom have put their trust in the Lord to save them. These books contain the recorded deeds of everyone,...good or evil. Everyone's life will be reviewed or evaluated. No one is saved by deeds, but deeds are seen as clear evidence of a persons actual relaionship with God. Jesus will look at how we handled gifts, opportunities, and responsibilities. God's gracious gift of salvation does not free us from the requirement of faithful obedience and service. Each of us must serve Christ in the best way we know and live each day knowing the books will one day be opened.
Your sister in Christ~carla
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Permalink Reply by Ron Payne on
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Hi Mandy,
Some folk take predestination to the point where God rules supreme and chooses those whom He will allow in Heaven and those whom He will not.
The question you asked "If God determined that Judas would betray Jesus, so that the scriptures would be fulfilled; then obviously this apostle did not have "free will" did he?"
God did not appoint Judas to be the betrayer of Jesus. Judas had total freedom to do whatever he wanted to. But by His foreknowledge, God already knew the choice Judas would make.
Here is another example:
Before the foundation of the world God already knew by His foreknowledge that the blood of some prophets would be shed and a generation would be accountable for it.
"That the blood of all the prophets, which was shed from the foundation of the world, may be required of this generation;" Luke 11:50
God did not predestine this in order for it to happen, No! He simply foresaw it.
Finally: When Mandy went before God and repented of Her sins and asked God to forgive and save her. God had already placed your salvation on record before the world began. Once you were in Christ, God chose that you should be Holy and without blame
"According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love: Eph 1:4
He accepted you and it was not an indiscriminate choice on God's part, but rather by His foreknowledge He already knew of your desire and repentance and therefore had already written your name in the book of life.
Before Genesis, before the Fall of man, before the crucifixion, God already knew and knows the beginning from the end.
From the beginning I revealed the end. From long ago I told you things that had not yet happened." Isaiah 46:10 God is able to see things that are still to happen and records them.
I Trust this helps Mandy - The Lord Bless you as you search to come into total agreement with His will and the love He has for you.
Your Brother and Friend In Christ - Ron
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Ron, absolutely awesome! Thank you.
I am so thankful for you and Jack---both of your answers are so filled with Christlike wisdom. It is such a blessing to learn from you both.
Your sister in Christ~carla
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Good Day Unnamedfornow,
I am fully aware of the doctrine regarding the Sovereignty of God and able to understand it fully. Would I dare to enter into Mandy's request for help if I did not?
Personally when a Babe in Christ has a problem such as Mandy's, I prefer to keep it simple. Failing which whatever we have to say with heavy theological replies, would simply be "Gobbly Gook" to Mandy.
Hence I prefer the KISS principle. (Just in case there are those who don't know, KISS means I should "Keep It Simple Stupid)
Many of the verses you quote are often misinterpreted by hyper Calvinists to prove their doctrine of God's sovereign will over everything.
Allow me to give a classic example of this in your interpretation of
Deut 28.
"Because you did not serve the LORD your God with joyfulness and gladness of heart, because of the abundance of all things, therefore you shall serve your enemies whom the LORD will send against you, in hunger and thirst, in nakedness, and lacking everything. And he will put a yoke of iron on your neck until he has destroyed you. The LORD will bring a nation against you from far away, from the end of the earth, swooping down like the eagle, a nation whose language you do not understand,"
I highlighted the reason WHY God turned against His chosen people.
It was definitely NOT because God was displaying His sovereign will over Israel. It WAS because of Israel's sin and abundance that she lost the ability to serve God with Joy and gladness of heart.
She was behaving similar to the plight of the Rich man in Luk 12:19-20. "
"And I will say to my soul, Soul, thou hast much goods laid up for many years; take thine ease, eat, drink, and be merry. But God said unto him, Thou fool, this night thy soul shall be required of thee: then whose shall those things be, which thou hast provided?
Again it was sin that caused God to take action against the man.
This is not God's sovereign will in action, but simply the law of "Cause and effect". You sin (Cause) You pay for it. (Effect)
Please note too. That every time Israel repented, God forgave her.
Does Israel's continual repentance remove God's sovereignty when He continually forgives her? Not at all!
I do not wish to accept the need for any heavy theological discussions on God's Foreknowledge, God's sovereignty, Man's Free will etc.
Not because I do not have answers, or afraid of confrontation.
But simply because there are Babes In Christ amongst us, who could quite easily become disheartened, discouraged or be overwhelmed by all the "back and forth" argumentation. I do not believe that allaboutgod is the platform for that, or helpful to young Christians.
Heavy discussions and argumentation on doctrines, are really outside the realms of Salvation plus the simple problems that require simple answers. These I have noted are the main requests by those on this platform. I simply try to keep it that way and not be "baited" into heavy theological discourse.
Your Brother and Friend In Christ - Ron
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Hi Sarah,
As I was reading this as it progressed I too started to feel confused. So I went immediately to God's Word.
After praying for direction I opened my bible to find the spot where it says that God does not want anyone to be destroyed but to repent. God took me right there--after He showed me another verse---First here is 2 Peter 3:9.
I found that in 2 Peter 3:9
"The Lord isn't really being slow about His promise, as some people think. No, he is being patient for your sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent."
The other verse God showed me was 2 Peter 1:3-11--
Growing in Faith
3 As we know Jesus better, his divine power gives us everything we need for living a godly life. He has called us to receive his own glory and goodness!
4 And by that same mighty power, he has given us all of his rich and wonderful promises. He has promised that you will escape the decadence all around you caused by evil desires and that you will share in his divine nature.
5 So make every effort to apply the benefits of these promises to your life. Then your faith will produce a life of moral excellence. A life of moral excellence leads to knowing God better.
6 Knowing God leads to self-control. Self-control leads to patient endurance, and patient endurance leads to godliness.
7 Godliness leads to love for other Christians,* and finally you will grow to have genuine love for everyone.3
8 The more you grow like this, the more you will become productive and useful in your knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ.
9 But those who fail to develop these virtues are blind or, at least, very shortsighted. They have already forgotten that God has cleansed them from their old life of sin.
10 So, dear brothers and sisters,* work hard to prove that you really are among those God has called and chosen. Doing this, you will never stumble or fall away.4
11 And God will open wide the gates of heaven for you to enter into the eternal Kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
Sarah, The other thing that I just want to say is that in our relationship with God, we are strengthened through prayer. Prayer is our communication to God. We are today's Saints praying for others who do not know JEsus that He will soften their hearts and lead them to faith. He will answer prayers which are in line with His will. IT is His will that none should perish, but have everlasting life. He will keep His promise---But we have to pray! Our own free will overrides God's Will for our own lives---Each of us has to humble ourselves and do away with Pride to choose God's will over our own.
Our faith comes from God, and is strengthened by God. It is by Him that WE even believe. Now we must live out of the overflow of the Love and Grace He has shown us, and pray for others who do not know that they have to pray for such things as faith and a belief in their Creator. We must know scripture--stay in God's word everyday, and pray for Wisdom and Revelation for understanding. HE Loves us and is faithful to provide.
God Bless you dear sister. I pray that this will clear up some confusion you may be feeling. ~carla
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Permalink Reply by Mandy on
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Dear Saraha; I am so sorry I even asked this question. I don't want anyone to be spiritually saddend. My mother is in the same situation as your father. After reading the posts here I found some very uplifting scripture about God' Righteous Judgment. Go to Roamans: 2: 7; Rms: 3:23; Rms 6:23; Rms 5:8' Rms10:8-10. It basically states that all have sinned, the penalty for sin is death, Jesus Christ died to wipe away that penalty and that we be forgiven for our sin, we must believe and confess that Jesus is Lord. Salvation comes through Jesus Christ.
I feel like I am the lukewarm Christian. I have turned to Jesus Christ, repented; however I often get angry easily at things people say and do. I misunderstand people sometimes easily because of my own insecurity. When I reflect, I become angry with myself for allowing anger to come in my heart in the first place. So, although I have repented; where does that leave me? In Christian love.
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Dear Sarah,
God ways are wonderful and amazing. A wonderful growth occurs when we allow ourselves to be amazed by Him. His Majestry is Awesome. ...When I had found that verse, I had sat down...it was on my heart to find it and I just opened my bible....and there it was. I almost turned the page, but the Holy Spirit urged me to look down and begin to read.
His amazing Love captivates all who truly believe.
Sarah I love how you acknowledged each person here. You have shown us 'Christian Love'. We are all part of the body, and we each have our own part to play. We are a team, and we are each called to put forth our own effort to participate in the fellowship. We are to be renewed in Knowledge, Mind and Spirit. Then to respond with Gratitude. The Lord is in control. Praise God that He is!
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Permalink Reply by Joyful on
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This really helped me a lot! I have also been struggling with trying to figure out God's sovereignity, free will, and predestination.....this one sentence made it all click into place! THANK YOU!
God is omniscient.....all-knowing!
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Mandy there is one word missing in your assumptions. That word is "Foreknowledge"
If God knew you before you were even born, He would also know the choices you make as you went through life.
"You saw me before I was born. The days allotted to me had all been recorded in your book, before any of them ever began." Psalm 139:16.
You have a free will to choose and God has the foreknowledge to know what that choice will be, even before you make it.
God does not rob any man or woman of their free will to choose, neither does he force anyone into a decision. He will place the options of the choice at our feet and give reasons why we should or should not accept.
But He leaves us to choose.
Your Friend in Christ - Ron
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Permalink Reply by Ramona P. Jacobsz on
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Dearest Mandy
I can almost relate to your confusion. When I was very young (and that is a looong time ago! I also had difficulty in understanding God's Grace. I used to wonder why David was such an outstanding figure in the Bible. I was a little girl when my father and I used to do Bible Study on Sunday afternoons. He was my mentor... and my hero. (I was his biggest fan). (And we studied Afrikaans as I was born in South Africa and it was quite imperative to be bilingual).
I was horrified at David's deeds: Adultery and Murder for lust! It was as we term it manslaughter but in my small mind (and I still think the same in my old age) it was pre-meditated murder. He desired Bethsheba and he arranged for her husband Uriah to be put into the forefront in battle, making sure he would be killed! Also David had concubines and many wives... I think it was also difficult for my father to explain God's grace to me. Eventually I learned that His Grace is incomprendible! We simply cannot think of a God who forgives murderers, aldulterers, child mollesters... and all the sins we can think of - but if you really repent - He forgives. Jesus paid it all for US. FOR ME!
However, we do make our own free choices. I am not "all knowing" but in my humble opinion God is never responsible for our sins. He just shows us GRACE. If we keep on sinning wilfully and knowingly and "repent" (I put this in apperenthesis) meaning that it is not true repentence. It is just lip talk and not heart talk... God cannot and will not forgive us.
I have a classic example of a beautiful little African baby that I supported because his mother died. His great grandmother works for me and I thought she was a very kind and caring person. The grandmother of the baby is an alcoholic and an extremely bad mother... The welfare would not grant her custody of her grandchild because of her bad record. (The 17 year old mother died shortly after birth due to complications that set in after a caesarian operation). I fought for custody for the great grandmother and I bought formula,clothing and everything necessary for this beautiful little boy. I gave my char lady off on every Tuesday for two months to go for special lessons to learn how to care for an infant even though she has had eight children herself. She "enjoyed" the classes according to her but she never learnt anything! I put her on a pedestal but she deceived me. People live deceptive lives. She told me that she had a very good friend and neighbour who was taking care of little Xolani while she worked. When he was 5 months old he became very ill. I gave money for a doctor but the alcoholic daughter took him to the doctor and said the doctor gave nothing and sent them home. I immediately had him fetched by ambulance and hospitalised. When I saw my baby he was in such a neglected state. The clothing that I bought him was missing! He looked like a little tramp. I was heartbroken and disgusted. His little finger nails and toenails were filthy dirty and he was a human wreck. He did not choose to live like that! I bought him formula and Purity foods and clothing - which was probably sold for liquor! I then realised that the adults had a choice - to look after and nurture that baby, or to neglect him. It was not God's choice... the starving little African babies are not caused by God's will. Some of their suffering is self-inflicted. I immediately put my baby in a creche when he recovered. He became ill again after 3 weeks and my own house doctor examined him and hospitalised him - he had Kwakoisha (extreme malnutrition). My doctor (Gosling) said it was manslaughter! I should lay a charge against the folks who were supposed to look after him... needless to say, my little Xolani died at six months. This death was not God's will - he died of negligence... We had him tested or AIDS. This was not the cause of his death - it was also not God's will... He died because of SIN.
I know I am going right off the subject but here I (in my very humble opinion) am making a point - people make choices. They either take responsibility and feed a little innocent baby or let him die! The great grandmother and grandmother also did nothing to bury the baby - I had to arrange that too. I also had to arrange prior to this the burial of the baby's mother! The great grandmother shows no remorse and continues as if life goes on! I pray that she will come to her senses and realise that she killed an innocent baby and ask God's forgiveness. She professes to be a Christian but the baby had all kinds of weird plaited pieces of wool in bright red and green colours... My other char lady who is a devout Christian (when we went to bathe the little corpse and place him in a coffin that I bought for him) pulled these evil pieces of witchcraft bands off his little legs and arms.
Our sins are not that of God's will! God created a perfect world with perfect people. It was man's choice to sin.
My dear friend, please forgive me for getting carried away but I still have a lot of pain in the loss of this innocent baby.
I would like to assure you that God has not determined who His children will be. We choose to be His children. Once you have truly repented your sins have definitely and undeniably been forgiven. And once you have a relationship with God this becomes a covenant between you and our Heavenly Father.
That brings me back to DAVID ... Read his Psalms and you will see how he cries out to the Lord for forgiveness. We cannot go to a person and say: "Father, I have sinned.... and I have done this..... and ... and.... and then the person answers : "Go in peace my daughter, your sins have been forgiven"... When I have knowingly and unknowingly sinned I repent in absolute sincerity and I know that God has forgiven my sins.
Jesus knew that Judas was false... He knew every thought that Judas was thinking and many things which Judas did was sinful. He tried to hoard up treasures - he was greedy. Even when Magdalin anointed Jesus' feet with expensive oil he was dissatisfied and would have preferred to have been able to sell this to put into the coffers. Jesus could have stopped him and God could have also stopped him but He was prepared to give His son to die for our sins...
That is why I am sure that God has not chosen His children - we have to choose God ourselves.
May God bless you and your loved ones and forgive me for getting carried away but whenever I think of my little African baby I become so sad and talking about it seems to give me relief. (Like having counselling).
Fond love in Christ
Ramona P.
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Dear Ramona,
Thank you for telling us about the African Baby Xolani. I am glad you told us, because it is therapy in itself and therefore you needed to tell someone.
It is behind you now and the Lord will take everything into account just as it has been recorded.
Those who for their own selfish reasons neglected the child, will be judged. The Lord will undertake on the day when you and Xolani will stand hand in hand before God's throne.
I believe that babies who die. will not remain babies but will grow into adults.
When you are taken up to be with the Lord, Xolani will be there as a member of your family group to welcome you. Xolani will recognise you just as you will recognise him. He will be able to talk to you and thank you for the love and concern you showed him.
The need to mourn for Xolani will pass Ramona, but you do have a wonderful day to look forward to when you are reunited with your family and friends including Xolani.
The Lord Bless you.
Your Brother and Friend in Christ - Ron.
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Dear Brother Ron
Thank you so much for your very kind letter. I hope you read my poem I wrote for my African baby. It gave me relief to vent my emotions in this manner. But I do thank you deeply and out of my heart for I dreamt once that he came to me and said "Look, Mamma, I can walk... I have friends and a new mother and father where I am. I love you Mamma, don't cry". I know it was only a dream but it comforted me...
Fondest love in Jesus
Ramona P.
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