All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
How do I share?
How do I share what I know, believe, and have experienced in the Spirit, without offending others or being judged as boastful?
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Permalink Reply by a servant (Chris) on
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Dean Lord Bless You Brother
From things Roy, you and others have shared, and as I was studying, I came across this from, "Alexander Maclaren." As I have pondered many ideas and comments. I have begun to sense that familiar tug of direction. I hope this is not to prideful, but in those few paragraph along with things Roy and you has shared. A pull; a call to Holiness. A life separated from the crowds.
Dean you are so very encouraging. Roy and All the others, I believe only truly wanting the Truth. To stand and share with confidence of All the Benefits in Jesus and Holy Ghost.
I also want to say, "Thank You." To all who look at me and are able to see humility. That is such a Beautiful Blessing. These are the times we must treasure and remember. One another sharing encouraging and kind words. Words to edify and hold on to.
I know change is coming in Arnette's and my life. The Spirit has yet, to put down the bigger brushes and broad strokes. As I write this, i am able to see it is far more me and my choices that hinder and hurt my growth. It is right there. All I and i think many have to do is not just Receive, but make sure they are prepared for the "Complete Change." A phrase we all may hear more about.
I need to go, will check in later. No matter where any stand about many of these subjects, as we Consider the Lord Our Savior, WE ARE FAMILY. We build on His Love, a point of agreement. We bridge out from there.
Change...
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I lost my last post trying to start a new column and had to rewrite. Then, I ran out of room. I will post as much as I can.
Has God restored or did the office of the prophet ever cease to function. Of course, the same question exists for the office of the apostle but we do not have one here that claims to be an apostle. I have to start over on the apostle office since I accidentally lost my last post. I should have had a copy of it but I did not. I was speaking on the subject of the qualifications of being an apostle. It is generally believed that an apostle was required to actually see the resurrected Christ. That is taken from Acts 1.
Ac 1:21-22 Therefore it is necessary to choose one of the men who have been with us the whole time the Lord Jesus went in and out among us, 22 beginning from John's baptism to the time when Jesus was taken up from us. For one of these must become a witness with us of his resurrection." NIV
I don't believe there is any question that this was required to replace of the Twelve Apostles. The person had to be with the other eleven from the time of John's Baptism and the Ascension of Christ. Some have thought that maybe that these were getting ahead of God and that Paul was intended to be the twelfth but that is apparently not true. He did not qualify as one of the Twelve.
There appeared to another group of Apostles that were not necessarily believers during Jesus' time on earth but came to believe in Him after His resurrection. Yet, they also witnessed personally the resurrected Christ. Paul writes of this in I Cor 15:
1 Co 15:3-8 For what I received I passed on to you as of first importance : that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, 4 that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, 5 and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. 6 After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time, most of whom are still living, though some have fallen asleep. 7 Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles, 8 and last of all he appeared to me also, as to one abnormally born. NIV
Paul then says: 1 Co 15:9-10 For I am the least of the apostles and do not even deserve to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. NIV
Paul's claim to be an apostle was that he had a personal calling from Jesus Himself. (I Cor 1:1, 2 Cor 2:1) The Twelve, Paul and James are the easy ones. Now, we come to the controversial ones. Paul and Luke appears to identify others that may or may not have met the criteria of having personally witnessed the resurrected Christ.
Let's take a look at Barnabas. Barnabas was certainly a part of the early ministry team but whether or not Jesus actually personally called him, we don't know. However, Luke does recognize him as an apostle:
Ac 14:14 But when the apostles Barnabas and Paul heard of this...NIV
We have no personal testimony from Barnabas or from anyone about his calling. Barnes' commentary mentions that he was called an apostle because he was sent out by the church. (Acts 13:3) Does this mean there were different kinds of apostles? Let's take a look at a few more. Paul recognizes two in his letter to the Romans:
Ro 16:7 Greet Andronicus and Junias, my relatives who have been in prison with me. They are outstanding among the apostles, and they were in Christ before I was. NIV
I don't know how close of relatives these two were. Sometimes Paul referred to a Jew as a relative but in this case he is probably speaking of a real relative. He also identifies them as apostles. Again, Barnes' commentary says "no." His position is that the only indication here is that the other apostles knew them. Again, that doesn't make much sense to me.
Next, we come to Silas and Timothy. As I mentioned, the first letter Paul penned was 1 Thes. He identifies himself, Silas and Timothy as the greeters of this letter.
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(continuing my post.)
Next, we come to Silas and Timothy. As I mentioned, the first letter Paul penned was 1 Thes. He identifies himself, Silas and Timothy as the greeters of this letter. He often uses the term "we" in reference to the three of them generating this greeting. I counted at least eighteen times that Paul refers to the three of them in the verses from chapter 1:1 to 2:6. In verse six he again uses the word "we" but this time he mentions:
1 Th 2:6 We were not looking for praise from men, not from you or anyone else. As apostles of Christ we could have been a burden to you, NIV
He identifies himself, Silas and Timothy as apostles. Silas was a Jew that was probably around for some time maybe even from the beginning of the church and before. Timothy, on the other hand, probably was not. Timothy, like Paul, was one abnormally born with one parent Greek and the other Jewish. But, I am going to identify Timothy as a second generation Christian. This is probably not a good description other than Timothy was younger and called to carry on the Gospel after the death of the early apostles. It does appear here that the ministry of the apostles did carry on into the second generation.
The last one I am going to consider here is Titus. Some consider him an apostle while others do not. He is not directly referred to as an apostle. If he were, he would be a Gentile apostle which would be rare as all the apostles are Jews and all writers of the Bible were Jews.
Paul wrote that an apostle had to have signs, wonders and miracles accompany them.
2 Co 12:12 The things that mark an apostle — signs, wonders and miracles — were done among you with great perseverance. NIV
Some might struggle with the idea that Timothy, a second generation Christian (not a good representation) was listed among the apostles. We will have to consider the commentaries that indicate that these others were not real apostles. However, I can guarantee I do not have the answers to that question. The Charismatics say the office continued while many fundamentalists would say "no." Is it that important? I am thinking it is important. I pray that the Lord will help us in our study. I believe He will show us in His Word. I must admit that I am leaning towards the idea that Titus was an apostle.
Let me say that none of this we are discussing affects our salvation or relationship to Jesus and God our Father. No one should get upset at one another especially as we continue to search His Word. I was not faced with this until Chris comes along and claims to be a prophet. It is his fault that we are digging deeper into His Word.I will not ask God to just tell me as I do not rely on my ability to know the difference.
Gotta go. Blessings to all or the few that are left.
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Roy
I would love the reward that may come to one who, aids in leading others deeper into the Word. However, we all know all the Glory goes to the Lord. Yet, since part of my "claim" is I am lead by Holy Ghost. And, we can see the fruit of me sharing about my calling, has brought forth a deeper knowledge of His Word. Has it then been confirmed, by the actions of other?:) :)
My Brother you know my heart in this I Trust. To any who think I would disrespect the Holiness of the Gifts, the Offices and God the Father, Son and Holy Spirit, you do not know me. And, you have not read much of what I have shared on AAG. Still, if I have offended anyone I ask you to forgive me.
Roy I have learned much from what you have shared here in this discussions. I am looking forward to learning more from what you will share. In seeing how you covered apostles, may I guess prophets will be next? :) :)
Still Praying all goes well with your soon to be 9th (?) grandchild. And, you travel in safety, protection, and Blessings.
Your Brother
Chris
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Yes, you are correct but I am actually working on number 14 here and one already with my Lord.
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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on
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Hi Roy Have to concur with Chris I am really enjoying this. One comment if I may Roy I believe God is tellingyou. As I am a firm believer God speaks to us in anything He choices and anyway He choices.
In my experience I must say I have come to look at scripture in a manner that sees expression. In the one account you used earlier in which it was said Jesus was in and around . I have had that sense at some meetings that He was right there. And you knew His glory. Having had a few experiences such as this I feel we in todays world especially North America tend to miss a lot as we overlook or dismiss His Spiritual yet very physical presence.
I have had many people tell me of the reactions of people on the mission fields..And then on an occasion in prayer it hit me so simple. In 3rd world countries a child has a nightmare a ritual or prayer is had to ward off evil spirits. In North America we tell the child thereis no such thing. We inadvertantly have been programmed to ignore Spiritual promptings.
He is alive and well and we only have to believe.
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Let’s go on with more discussion of Titus, and add Apollos and Luke:
2 Co 4:1-4 Therefore, since through God's mercy we have this ministry, we do not lose heart. 2 Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways; we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God. On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to every man's conscience in the sight of God. 3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing. 4 The god of this age has blinded the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God. NIV
The purpose of his coming was the Gospel. The Gospel was presented with signs and wonders. Paul would have to be considered somewhat Calvinistic here (sorry) as he indicates that those who are not destined unto salvation had their minds veiled from the Gospel.
Even in today’s world, many do not understand the Gospel message. If certain people were to be highly gifted, I would think the purpose would be to preach the Gospel to the poor. A poor person is that person that does not understand the beauty of His Word. Again, I will state, if we have Christ we have everything. We need nothing more. Christ in you is your eternal hope of glory.
What we are concluding in these passages is that the purpose of the apostle was to take God’s Word into a region to find those lost sheep of Jesus. The Gospel message would be confirmed with signs, wonders and miracles and that the believers would accept the message while the minds of the unbelievers would be blinded by the god of this world.
Paul gives a warning:
2 Co 11:4-6 For if someone comes to you and preaches a Jesus other than the Jesus we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or a different gospel from the one you accepted, you put up with it easily enough. 5 But I do not think I am in the least inferior to those "super-apostles." 6 I may not be a trained speaker, but I do have knowledge. We have made this perfectly clear to you in every way. NIV
Paul was laboring here with the Corinthians and, of course, the other churches to form the true Gospel of Christ. He wanted them to have complete understanding of the grace of our Lord Jesus. He indicates that he is not a trained speaker (also 1 Cor 2:1-3, 13) but that his speech is with knowledge and power (11:6).
The purpose of the letter is to encourage the saints to resume the challenge of receiving a weekly offering to be presented to the church in Jerusalem. It seems that anytime money gets involved, Satan can easily get a foothold. I am conjecturing, here, that the saints in Corinth had given some money designated for this offering to some false apostles or someone that should not have gotten any. It seems that the Corinthian believers had been misled and now Paul is working to bring them back.
He is sending Titus along with a couple of other brothers (probably Luke and Apollos) and seems to identify all of them as apostles. I think this is critical to our understanding of this office. Note:
2 Co 8:16-19 I thank God, who put into the heart of Titus the same concern I have for you. 17 For Titus not only welcomed our appeal, but he is coming to you with much enthusiasm and on his own initiative. 18 And we are sending along with him the brother who is praised by all the churches for his service to the gospel. 19 What is more, he was chosen by the churches to accompany us as we carry the offering, which we administer in order to honor the Lord himself and to show our eagerness to help. NIV
I am not focused on the offering but on the brothers appointed by the churches to receive the gift. Paul identifies these brothers as apostles:
2 Co 8:22-23 In addition, we are sending with them our brother who has often proved to us in many ways that he is zealous, and now even more so because of his great confidence in you. 23 As for Titus, he is my partner and fellow worker among you; as for our brothers, they are representatives of the churches and an honor to Christ. NIV
In the NIV they are identified as representatives, in the KJV they are identified as messengers but the word used in Greek is “apostolos” which, of course, is the same word used to identify all the apostles of our Lord.
Is Paul's understanding of the office evolving? At one point it appears that he indicates that the Lord Himself had to appear to one appointed to this office but now, it appears the person can be appointed by the church to this official position. They are "apostles" of the churches. They are apostolos of the ekklesia and the doxa of Christos. (They are apostles of the churches and of the glory of Christ).
This is an amazing jewel hidden in the wonderful Scripture of our Lord. We still require much study but some things hidden are becoming revealed. We can find more truth in His Word. It may simply be that the power of Christ's glory needs to once again be restored to His church.
We see another occasion where this office was appointed by the church. The person was Epaphroditus that I believe we have already mentioned. We will take a look at this individual as well.
Blessings to all left as we continue our labor of love.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Roy, Chris, Dean and all,
I too am appreciating this discussion as I follow along. May God continue to guide and direct.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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I must admit that for me this is an exciting journey. I once responded that I did not believe in modern apostles and prophets but that I did believe in Chris. I have used the Englishman's Concordance for several studies but not for this one in particular. When we read verses in the different versions, we see the same word translated differently. I can understand why this word "apostolos" is translated differently from apostles as I also thought these men did not qualify for the office with restrictions as defined in Acts 1 and by Paul. Then, I see Paul using this exact same word for these men that seemingly did not qualify. What made me reconsider was when Paul in 1 Thes used the word "we" referring to himself, Silas and Timothy as apostles of Christ. That one is throwing me for a loop. Silas may well have been there from the beginning. But, Timothy, I don't think so. Timothy was probably introduced to Christianity on Paul's first journey into Lystra and was known by the other believers on Paul's second visit. His grandmother Lois was the first to believe and his mother Eunice which both probably led Timothy to conversion. This is what I mean when I refer to Timothy as a second-generation Christian. On Paul's second visit, he invited Timothy to accompany him and Silas on their journey. They, once having picked up also Luke, would have become very close and loyal companions. Paul's love and concern for Timothy are very obvious in his letters to him.
Anyway, Timothy is throwing me as my thoughts on him and his conversion were already fixed. It is the verse in 1 Thes 1:8 that is making me reconsider, my position anyway. It seems to me that perhaps Paul is appealing to both the Jewish apostles with his qualifications but these church appointed apostles seem also to have credibility in his sight.
I am really hoping more join and comment.
Thanks for your encouragement.
Roy
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Roy
I have said many times, "I believe in the Spirit of the word not just the letter." We all can agree here that the Bible is the Word of God. We know God is, Omniscience. He has always known what the word apostle meant. Yet, we can see here as the earlier Church grew, so did it's needs. The need for apostles might have grown, but the office of apostle and it's core meaning did not. Paul and his understanding of the office expanded, yet stayed true to it's real meaning.
I have seen where God gave the same Word to 2 people. But, when shared different words were used. I had already written this reply, but before I posted it, I wanted to look at something on a different page. So before I stopped myself, I changed the page and in so deleted what I had written. However, because I did that I was able better explain my point. Accident or opportunity?
I want to better explain what I mean by, the Spirit of the Word not just the letter. Some have tried to use this thinking to profit, or feed their pride. When Jesus was able to take the 10 Commandments and put them into 2 Commandments. Did this diminish their meanings? If we were to turn the tables, and Jesus shared the 2 Commandments into 10 Commandments, would the definitions become weaker? No matter how a person views the Word of God, the Spirit is able to share or open the eyes so they can understand. And really that is the bottom line. We all see things differently; we are on different levels on intelligence, but He is able to share both His Love and Word so all are able to comprehend the meaning. Also, to that point. The Word and the meanings are beyond just surface. "Jump in ya'll. The Water is deep and cool, yet without comparison. Praise God.
Thank you Roy, Dean, LT and any who shared earlier, and those who will share later. Together we are learning how this all fits together.
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Amen I couldn't agree more and pray and Hope to see this.
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