All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Doctrine vs Preference
We often see people existing in one extreme or another. There are some who would ignore doctrine for the sake of unity, but can there really be unity in the body if doctrine (teaching found in God's Word) is ignored? There is another group that has taken mere prefernces and elevated them to the level of doctrine, at least in their teaching. An example of this can be the style of worship. Some are more demonstrative than others, but neither is wrong if the heart is right. Style of worship is a preference, not a doctrine.
What do you think about the importance of sound doctrine in one's life and in the church? Have you seen things that are preferences turned into doctrine? If so, give an example, but leave names and organization names out of the comment. How do we stay centered on Christ in the midst of the chaos?
Lord Bless,
LT
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Amanda,
(new thread)
When so many of the people in the Bible and even the apostles of Christ failed, how can we expect anything less?
Failure is no excuse for acceptance of the failure. I can expect to be better today than I was yesterday. Read the story of those who loved God and failed. David penned Psalm 51 and other Psalms desiring a pure heart and never once said that his failure was normal or acceptable. He hated his failure. Peter when he denied Christ and the rooster crowed went out and wept. He did not excuse his failure, he detested it. To accept failure as OK and normal is to become friends with sin ... NO, NEVER!!! Failure in the context in which we speak is sin and unacceptable. When it happens we must repent and return to walking with Jesus, not attempting to rationalize it away. We are to grow to HATE SIN as God hates sin.
We learn from our failures.
I can learn that I should not put my hand in a fire by putting it in the flame, but that does not make it a good idea or right. I can learn that sin is wrong without having to perform that sin and then experience the consequence of sin. Hear me clearly. We can go back and forth on this all day if you like, but sin is sin and God hates sin. He did not excuse it, He paid for it, but that does not lessen the fact that it is sin and He hates it. We are called to a higher life, not just a continuance of the old life. If one does not grow to hate sin they really need to examine their heart. Have they grown cold or are they really saved. There is no playing at being a Christian. Yes, we must grow and mature to overcome sin in life, but overcoming is the goal, not acceptance or anticipation that failure is normal and thus OK.
To expect that we will always succeed is to set ourselves up for deep discouragement when we do fail and also for becoming arrogant and conceited when we succeed.
To expect that I will fail and accept it is to allow sin to have rule over my life. To expect that I should live for Christ in a manner worthy of our high calling should motivate us to seek to live righteous lives and hate our sin when we fail. I repeat ... we should HATE OUR SIN, Always!!! What you call discouragement I will call conviction. If I feel good about my failure there is something wrong! If I think my failure is OK because I knew I would fail and God knew I would fail then it is acceptable to fail, that way of thinking is in error.
The glory would then seem to go to us, not to God.
And what does it say to the world about God when His children repetitively fail and think nothing of it, or actually think that it is the norm and OK to continue to fail instead of striving to live a godly life to honor Christ?
We can expect too much from ourselves and from others.
We can also expect too little from ourselves and the children of God. We are free from bondage to the ways of the world and freed to live for Christ, in Christ. We are called to a higher standard for His glory and honor as we represent Him before the world.
All I know is if I change my focus to becoming something, like becoming 100% surrendered, then I won’t succeed because I won’t be focused on Jesus anymore but upon myself and how I am measuring up instead of just on allowing Jesus to live His life through me.
You left out the most important part of the equation ... 100% surrendered to Jesus!!! If you are seeking to be 100% surrendered to Him He is the complete focus!!! If you don’t desire to surrender, how do you expect Jesus to live through you? Salvation is free, but it is not easy. Life in Christ comes with many challenges. Sanctification (being filled with the Holy Spirit and empowered to live for Him) does not come to a vessel seeking to surrender only 50% of their life to Christ.
Even as Jesus lives in and through me, I know there will still be times of failure and I can respond by feeling defeated or I can allow Him to "wash my feet" and to use those times to teach me lessons about how to give up my desire to get it right or to work things out on my own … and about me learning how to just let Jesus show me the way.
Do you hate sin? When we fail we may learn a lesson, but we need not fail to learn that lesson. Do I lie in order to learn the lesson about lying? Do I steal to learn the lesson about stealing? Or, do I strive to live in holiness and righteousness according to His Word? Failure is never acceptable. Failure is sin and sin is not acceptable. This is not about maintaining salvation, that is all Jesus, but we are called to walk in Him and to live for Him and to strive for righteous and holy lives.
I have a very tender conscience and feel conviction for the slightest things. So maybe what I am counting as sin is not even sin. I don’t know. Like thoughts of death and suicide. Maybe those are not sin but acting on them would be. I feel terrible about them. We cannot always do the right thing no matter how much we want to do it because we are still in the flesh. I’m just glad that Jesus is my Savior and that he understands the human condition.
We can always do the right thing. There are times we do not, but that was a choice we made. We sinned, God did not fail and no one else made us sin ... we sin, but that does not make it right. On a side note (not speaking of you, but making a point): My skin crawls every time I hear a child of God tell an unbeliever that they are sinners just like them ... NO!!! We were sinners just like them, but our sins have been washed away. We are not children of wrath, but children of the King. We are called to a higher standard and should aspire to live holy and righteous lives for the glory and honor of Christ. When I fail at least three things should happen. 1) I should be convicted of my sin ... Hating what I just did. 2) Repent of that sin agreeing with God that it is an abomination and not acceptable. 3) Trust that as a Child God is still at work in me and that my relationship is secure, but that security does not minimize the fact that sin is unacceptable before God.
(Romans 7:15-25). Jesus is my Deliverer. I look for Him to come and rescue me from the body of this death.
Nothing in this text makes sin OK. Paul hated his sin and cried out accordingly.
Besides, what you call being 80%, 20%, or 100% surrendered may not be the same standard that I would call it. We have to look at weaknesses and strengths as outlined in Romans 14, too. An example is that I think it’s horrible to crack jokes about sex even between a married couple but someone else may be able to do it without any problem.
Desiring to surrender 100% and identifying various sins is not the same thing and cannot be combined as you just attempted to do. My heart’s desire is to be wholly surrendered to Jesus in this life. In the Bible there are many things that are called sin without question. Lying is sin, murder is sin, and adultery is sin. There are many things in this life that fall into gray areas. These gray areas are the debatable things found in Romans 14, not what is clearly taught as sin in the Word of God.
How do we judge?
2 One person’s faith allows them to eat anything, but another, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables.First of all this context is that eating meat is OK, but to the weak it was not. Thus, to not injure the weak Paul would refrain. Paul is not saying that if one considers murder as not sin then it is OK for that person to commit murder.
Maybe I in God’s eyes am more surrendered than fill in the blank.
This person is in error because they are comparing themselves to others instead of seeking to please the Lord and live for Him.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Next point:
When a person fails we, the family of God, are to be there to help them overcome the particular sin, but even then we do not ignore the sin. The sin needs to be dealt with, not ignored, seeking healing and restoration always as the goal.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I agree completely. My son fails and I could disown him but I'd rather help him and love him.
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Two things:
1) I do hate sin and I said I have a very tender conscience regarding my sin and always seek forgiveness when I sin. When I fail, it makes me more dependent upon Him and at the same time makes me want to serve Him better and be more committed.
2) I do not condone sin and I hate sin and I do not think that failure is acceptable to God but it is always forgivable by God and I long for the day when Jesus will take me to the place where there is no sin, sorrow, death, or crying. And I won't fail Him anymore.
Where I said: Maybe I in God’s eyes am more surrendered than fill in the blank.
The sentence is not about me comparing myself to others but about God watching what is happening between me and others and God judging. He is the Righteous Judge. I said "in God's eyes" not mine or yours or anyone's.
You are judging me and trying to say I do not seek the Lord and live for Him. That hurts.
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I am not judging you. I am responding to what you have said. We are are not going to turn this into about "Amanda" as if I have attacked you, nor am I going to allow you to put words in my mouth.
I have responded to what you said ... and that is all. Your presentation focuses on the fact that we are going to fail and that because we are going to fail we should expect to fail. NO!!! We are to aspire to live for Him and not accept failure as normal and a part of life. We are called to holiness and righteousness.
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I apologize and do not feel attacked at all and don't see where I put words in your mouth but am sorry if I did. I was trying to explain my POV about failing and just giving up in defeat or asking for forgiveness and strength to go on. Because I think we can expect to fail does not mean I think failure is acceptable or normal. Nothing IMO is normal about life here on earth. I would love to please God in all ways. I just know that today I am not better than I was yesterday but I am still a child of God. I am happy for all of those who feel in their walks that they are reaching their goal to be more and more sanctified. I can identify very much with Peter and David and Samson and Jonah and others. I am happy God doesn't give up on us. I am sorry and do not want to argue with you and definitely do not want to make this about me.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Wow! What a statement here by our brother Paul:
Php 3:7-16
7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8 What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith. 10 I want to know Christ and the power of his resurrection and the fellowship of sharing in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11 and so, somehow, to attain to the resurrection from the dead.
12 Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.
15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained. NIVNot all will be at the same level of understanding or may I even say "performance" in their walk with Christ. We are all to walk accordingly to the faith we have received. Sometimes I think I am so far from being where I should be. Yet, I realize that I am pressing on. Here, our brother is stating that even he did not have complete understanding but I am confident that he would never lead us to believe that our salvation in Christ was not complete. I have a feeling that Paul held himself to a pretty high standard of freedom and responsibility.
What is Paul pressing on to obtain? I do not believe Paul is pressing on to obtaining that which was already freely given him. What Paul may have wanted so desperately is that for which was given to be made complete in him. Part of that is here and, of course, some could not have been achieved in this life. Personality enters into this kind of pursuit. A person like me might become so discouraged in his failures that the Father might emphasize to me His eternal love and guarantees, etc. To another person, like Paul, for example, God might be taking him to a completely different level where some never go.
Would I be able to sustain in this life that which Job did? I know in my present condition I could not. What about sustaining what Paul did? Again, I don't believe I could. Jesus endured everything imaginable. None of us could ever measure up to that. Was Paul comparing himself to becoming what Christ was? Was that the standard he was setting for himself?
I think that it is possible that Paul expected so much out of himself that he abhorred everything that revealed his lack. I really think his personality is showing through in these statements. What Paul endured is some ways is just about as far away from me as to what Jesus endured. I do have that sense of failure as Paul seems to be expressing. But, I do press on. I will never be where he was but I am where I am. I will press on from here. Even now my failures overwhelm me but I press on. I am ashamed of my weakness, but I press on.
I must fix my eyes on Him for when I look at myself I become depressed seeing this enormous gap. I do that which I hate - that which I deplore. Yet, I press on. I acknowledge that my salvation is completely in Him. Yet, I press on. Leaving this world and all that it offers, I walk towards that mark, that standard which I can see ahead. It is always ahead of me. I continually walk toward that mark.
Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. KJV
Pretty powerful stuff here, Paul.
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Roy,
You said:
>Not all will be at the same level of understanding or may I even say "performance" in their walk with Christ. We are all to walk accordingly to the faith we have received. Sometimes I think I am so far from being where I should be. Yet, I realize that I am pressing on.I feel I am so fare from where I should be but I am still here and still breathing and that means I am pressing on. I wouldn’t be here if it was coming from my own strength. I know this much for sure.
>Here, our brother is stating that even he did not have complete understanding but I am confident that he would never lead us to believe that our salvation in Christ was not complete. I have a feeling that Paul held himself to a pretty high standard of freedom and responsibility.
James 3:2 says “We all stumble in many ways. Anyone who is never at fault in what they say is perfect, able to keep their whole body in check.” I definitely make many mistakes in what I say and what I do. It is overwhelming at times but wen it feels overwhelming I know my eyes are on me and not on Jesus.
>What is Paul pressing on to obtain? I do not believe Paul is pressing on to obtaining that which was already freely given him. What Paul may have wanted so desperately is that for which was given to be made complete in him. Part of that is here and, of course, some could not have been achieved in this life.
I feel he was pursuing holiness and Christ-likeness and not trying to maintain his salvation.
> Personality enters into this kind of pursuit. A person like me might become so discouraged in his failures that the Father might emphasize to me His eternal love and guarantees, etc. To another person, like Paul, for example, God might be taking him to a completely different level where some never go.
This part really speaks to me because I know I cannot compare myself to others and to where they are in their walks with Christ. They may be far, far ahead of me. I can let that discourage me or I can just rest in Jesus knowing that He will show me the way. I may never catch up to others. But I want to keep on running.
>Would I be able to sustain in this life that which Job did? I know in my present condition I could not. What about sustaining what Paul did? Again, I don't believe I could. Jesus endured everything imaginable. None of us could ever measure up to that. Was Paul comparing himself to becoming what Christ was? Was that the standard he was setting for himself?
They call it a second work of grace. Grace. It is a work that God is doing in us. God will complete it. He is molding the clay. I may be wrong but I think the moment I turned to Jesus and asked Him to save me then I was surrendering to Him and that is when He began His work in me. I wish I could keep up with others but I have had many setbacks. Maybe I am not going to make it after all.
>I think that it is possible that Paul expected so much out of himself that he abhorred everything that revealed his lack. I really think his personality is showing through in these statements. What Paul endured is some ways is just about as far away from me as to what Jesus endured. I do have that sense of failure as Paul seems to be expressing. But, I do press on. I will never be where he was but I am where I am. I will press on from here. Even now my failures overwhelm me but I press on. I am ashamed of my weakness, but I press on.
I think Paul did have a sense of failure and I have that sense of failure very deeply. In fact it has been ingrained in me since childhood. I can’t make others happy. I am a failure. I can’t achieve my own success. I can’t even evaluate my own success or failure without God‘s help and His light and His Word.
>I must fix my eyes on Him for when I look at myself I become depressed seeing this enormous gap. I do that which I hate - that which I deplore. Yet, I press on. I acknowledge that my salvation is completely in Him. Yet, I press on. Leaving this world and all that it offers, I walk towards that mark, that standard which I can see ahead. It is always ahead of me. I continually walk toward that mark.
That’s all we can do. Persevere. Galatians 6:9. I think satan’s most effective weapon is discouragement. I’ve been asking God to add to my life those things that will bring encouragement. But everyday the message is reiterated to me in one way or another that there is no use to go on. And everyday I fight it. I keep fighting it.
>Php 3:14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus. KJV
I mentioned this verse earlier in this discussion. It’s one of my favorites.
>Pretty powerful stuff here, Paul.
Yes. And pretty powerful stuff here, Roy.
Jesus warned Peter of his upcoming failure. Peter replied, “Even if all fall away on account of you, I never will.” (Matthew 26:33).
I don’t know which is best-- to expect it or to expect to succeed.
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus answered, “this very night, before the rooster crows, you will disown me three times.”
35 But Peter declared, “Even if I have to die with you, I will never disown you.” And all the other disciples said the same.
I guess at that time they were not born again or filled with the Spirit. So what's wrong with me? I expect to fail because I am human and have a sin nature. I hate sin and I hate my sin and wish I could never sin. I expect to fail while knowing it is unacceptable to God for us to fail. My life has no purpose.
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Amanda,
Please don't get upset with me, here, but I am going to say something that you might struggle to receive. You are so much farther along than you even think you are. Some of your thinking reminds me so much of myself. My wife continually tells me that I am too honest. It is not that I am too honest, it is just that I insist on referencing those areas where I am so weak. I remember communicating with one person on AAG and he indicated that he thought I must be hiding some serious horrible sin. I realized at that point that again I was emphasizing too much my failure and my sin. I responded that I have never done anything according to how people judge in this world that would put me into that category. I have never had a drink of alcohol in my entire life or been with any other woman other than my wife in my entire lifetime. I have only said a few words that I should not have said and on and on I could go. Yet, in my mind, I am the worse sinner in this world. I may not have committed those kinds of sins but I have become angry - so angry that I have thrown things. I have become very upset with folks almost to the point of hating which is equal to murder. I know my heart. I still need Jesus so much. I have a feeling you are similar. I have been told to lighten up on myself and I have. I think you also need to lighten up on yourself. Your desire to follow and please Christ are way too obvious. I think you are way farther along than you pretend.
However, if I am wrong, just ignore me or ask me to delete this and I will.
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Roy,
I am a faithful wife. I don't smoke or cuss or go to bars. I drink maybe one alcoholic beverage per week and it's ususually a glass of red wine like Mogen David, which is full of anti-oxidants and good for you --- one glass of red wine a day is good for you, for high blood pressure and helps fight against dementia and cancer and other things and it is both the alchohol in it as well as the grapes used that are good for you but moderation is key and more than one glass begins to cause the opposite effect on a person.
Anyway, depression is a horrible sin to many people and so is attempting suicide and I am guilty of doing both and I am guilty of still having those thoughts. The more depressed I become, the more I have them.
I have had the anger and have told people I hate them. I have failed in many ways. I stopped going to church. I don't have any addictions. I praise the Lord I don't have to fight an addiction to drugs or alcohol or porn on top of this other.
As far as I see it, I don't have any of my own righteousness. Like you, I still need Jesus so much. The bad thoughts I have each day are not about cheating or having an affair or wishing somebody else was dead --- but just wishing I were dead. Those are big sins.
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Amanda, the thoughts you have are more normal than you think. However, you are going too far with your failures. You are a good person. You are not good in comparison to Christ or to the perfection He demands. That is why you still need Him. However, you are a good person very useful and asset to the Kingdom. I am telling you that you are too hard on yourself and that you need to lighten up. You are better than I for you are obeying the Word to take a little wine for sicknesses.
Amanda, I suspected that you were and now I am sure that you are a good person. Technically, I am not supposed to call anyone good and so I rephrase that to be that in comparison to most others, you are a good person.
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