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does bible consistently show that when people FIRST recieve Holy Spirit they will speak in tongues?
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Amanda,
I know I frustrate you often, but let's remember something. If you ask me a question I will respond with what I believe. You are free to disagree with me. It is time to move on ...
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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I didn't get frustrated. I was actually learning from the discussion. I was saddened by the fact that I cannot clarify my replies so that others understand me. I do know what it is like to be filled with the Spirit. I have known the power, presence, and purpose which are words that you use to describe it. I have been Spirit-led in my life and even worked for over 20 years serving others with spiritual gifts given by God to me, knowing I could not have accomplished many of those tasks, if not all of them, without God's help, enabling, and empowerment. Nor would I have been doing those works if not called to do them. There are many occupations that are much more glamourous than caring for the sick, elderly, handicapped, and terminally ill, cleaning up vomit, listening to people crying, watching them pass away after a long illness ...
Even those who have been Spirit filled and Spirit led in past years can suffer from compassion fatigue and burn out. Bad things can happen to set you back. But it is time to move on. We do not completely disagree. I never said I did not believe in the infilling of the Spirit after salvation. I only said I don't call it a second work of grace and I believe it happens many times, not just once and I believe it is a blessing that God pours out on those with whom He is pleased and who are already in His will so that they can do more for Him and glorify Him even more and I believe the sanctification process is lifelong. I will never be perfect this side of heaven and no matter what happens, I know I will see Jesus in heaven, even if my life here on earth ends badly ... because I am born again and have been since I was 16 and I know this. If I fail to be completely sanctified here on earth, Jesus will complete it in me when I see Him face to face.
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Is there a filling of the Holy Spirit after salvation? I believe there is but I wonder if it is just once.
I think Stanley would even agree there is a filling of the Spirit after salvation. Some of our greatest evangelists in history testify to this glorious event in their lives. However, we have to recognize that this is one doctrine that is not as clear cut as others. I don't think you get more of His Spirit but get an anointing of His Spirit that you have not previously had.
I don't think you can find Scripture that will convince you that there is a second definite work of grace but maybe you will. You will find the verse, however, in Eph 5 that instructs the believer to be filled with the Spirit.
Some would say that we don't find anyone being filled with the Spirit after Acts 19. But, we do find these in Acts that were filled with the Spirit. We must consider their experience even though some will explain the experience away by saying that God no longer works in this way. I am not convinced.
It could be argued that only a few, like DL Moody, RA Torrey, John R Rice, Billy Sunday and the like were the only ones that needed such an experience as they became great soul-winners. I don't know about that.
This I know, I need help. If this old guy is going to get the job done, I need help. It appears to me that God calls us to His service and then promises the power to accomplish the work commanded. He has told us that we were to do great works.
I really don't think the responsibility is on the shoulders of those who believe in the filling of the Spirit subsequent to salvation to prove it but it on the shoulders of those who say that now He doesn't do that anymore. I cannot find that. The verse in Ephesians 5 really does disprove that idea. Even now we are commanded to be filled with His Spirit. I believe it is something commanded continually.
Where are we told that we no longer need to be filled with His Spirit? The experience is very detailed for us in the Scripture. We are told that the infilling or baptism of the Spirit will give us the necessary power to take the Gospel to the world.
I think the greatest testimony of this experience comes from one of the greatest soul-winners of all time, DL Moody. He was not a Pentecostal, charismatic or holiness type of person. Yet, he testifies of a great assist in his task after this experience.
I think if you are going to tell me that there is no subsequent filling of the Spirit, you are going to have to show me where He tells us that. The disciples obviously had received His Spirit but now they were filled with His Spirit. The explanations I see why God no longer does that don't satisfy me. I believe He still does. However, it certainly should not separate us. I believe Charles Stanley was filled and is filled with His Spirit. His upbringing as a Pentecostal may have made him rethink some of the things he witnessed as a boy.
Have a great Sunday.
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Roy, a couple of things. I know Scripture points out people who were filled with the Spirit, both in the OT and the NT, so there is no doubt that the filling of the Spirit exists. Now, is the filling of the Spirit a second work of grace? To challenge someone that the burden of proof that it isn't a second work is on them is useless because the burden of proof that it is a second work of grace is definitely upon a person who teaches it as such, don't you think?
In this particular case, that road runs both ways IMO and I won't settle for that kind of answer.
So a statement like that, IMO, is meant to shut someone down and close the discussion. A lot of times it is how defense attorneys look at their cases ... but they don't always win either.
At this point, the way I see it is that the finished work at Calvary provides us with forgiveness of sins and regeneration by the Spirit which begins a life-long gradual process of sanctification and there are times when a person receives an extra filling of the Spirit throughout their walk with Christ. An example would be Elizabeth who was already living a righteous life and chosen to be the mother of John the Baptist but who was filled with the Spirit when Mary visited her that day.
It appears to me that such fillings ebb and flow and dissipate and are experienced again and again. When we have them we feel "blessed" and the definition of blessed is simply happy. At such times our fervor is accentuated and we can do more for Jesus when we are feeling "high" than the times when we are down and not feeling blessed--"low." God knows this and the filling does enable God to work more through those filled and overflowing vessels, no doubt.
I don't know if it is a second work of grace. I do believe the filling of the Spirit exists because it is plainly written on the bible and we are definitely commanded to be filled with the Spirit (Eph 5:18). We should be open to receiving the infilling and not resist the Spirit.
As I said in another comment, I don't know why it is divided up into first work of grace, second work of grace, etc...
I would like to know ... and specifically I would like to look at Scriptures that make it evident.
We know that believers sin.
The word of God and the Spirit work together to sanctify us, don't they?
I just don't know what the filling actually is, other than what my own experience tells me it is. I can't use my own experience to "prove" to you that this is "what it is", nor can I say the burden of proof is on you to prove to me that your experience with this is what it actually is.
Perhaps it just means that God's relationship with every believer is very personal and unique. ????
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Amanda,
I'm not sure what you are not accepting. Is this the statement in that post that you are objecting to:
I don't think you can find Scripture that will convince you that there is a second definite work of grace but maybe you will.
That is just an area I am not going to argue about. What I am saying is a burden of proof on the other side is to show that we are no longer filled with God's Spirit at times after our conversion. I will not be upset with you if you disagree with that.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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One way of looking at, being filled with the Spirit, is you are being filled to your capacity, or to what you are able to understand now. In other words, as it says in 2Pet.1:2-3 Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God and Jesus our Lord, according as His divine power hath given to you all things that pertains unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him that hath called you to glory and virtue. Whereby are given to us exceeding great and precious promises , that by these we might be partakers of His Divine nature.
Can one take on His “God’s” Divine nature: if he didn’t know he could?
Though all these things have been given to you, “in the spirit” doesn’t mean that you can walk in all those things. Until you have grown in the knowledge of them. I might have the capacity or the ability to do certain things, but I might not have the knowledge it takes to do them, but as I grow in the knowledge of God, I will see that those things have been given to me already, I just didn’t know how to walk in them, or to take advantage of the things that I already have. This is why we perish for lack of knowledge.
Why are so many people walking around us every day that are not saved? One reason could be, because they don’t know that they can be. It is offered to everyone here on earth, but as the Word says,
Romans 10:11-19 (KJV)
11 For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
12 For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him.
13 For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.
14 How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher?
15 And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things!
16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Esaias saith, Lord, who hath believed our report?
17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.So if they don’t have the knowledge of salvation, how can they be saved?
There are two kinds of knowledge, one is a carnal knowledge, and the other is a Spiritual knowledge.
1Cor.2, says the natural man, “carnal mind set” receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness unto him, neither can he know them, for they are spiritually discerned.
This reverts back to a previous discussion, There are things of God that this natural man can never comprehend, until he has been filled with the Spirit, and it doesn’t mean to full capacity.
You can be filled with the spirit, but not all the way.
Carnally speaking, one can be full of anger, but there are others that can have more anger than the other.
I might be filled with the Holy Ghost, but I am not walking in the "its" fullness as Jesus did.
Joe
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Roy,
The term "Second Act of Grace" is simply used to describe the process. We could put another name on it, but it is not about the name, but rather the teaching. One is saved by grace, but that does not mean they are filled with the Holy Spirit (I know you know this). The filling is available, but many people are unawre of their need or the availability. The first time one is filled is often in response to conviction that there is something missing. They go through a crisis experience that leads to the filling of the Spirit, one might call it the manifestation of the Spirit in power. Again, terms vary. It is not about the term, but the actual work of God that is taking place in one's life. They are already saved, but now filled to the capacity as Joe mentioned, but there is so much more growth yet to take place. The growth is the progression part. As we grow we need to be filled over and over in our lives. The key word to all of this is "Surrender."
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Joe,
>Can one take on His “God’s” Divine nature: if he didn’t know he could?
I am careful when someone begins teaching me about the divine nature simply because there is a teaching (which I reject) that is very prevalent today that people are becoming gods.
Having Christ in us and partaking of the divine nature does not make us something more than humans--human/god.
One has to be careful here. We are special once born again and we become children of God, not because of who or what we are, but because of the One to whom we become joined. (Col. 1:27; 1 John 3:1-3; John 17:16-26).
Some people teach that we are little gods--that Jesus was a Son of God and a man born again is a Son of God, etc.... There is a fine line though and Jesus was “THE” Son of God.
We are not deity. God is self-sufficient and self-existent. He needs nothing to be alive or remain alive but we are dead apart from Christ and have life only because of Christ. Our life is in Him and in fact it is His life in us that gives us life. Thus we are united with God, but are not God, or even little gods. We are partakers of His nature, but it is still His nature in us.
Being a new creation means we are a new creation, not just made a little better or given a different status. Our humanity at birth is the fallen humanity. That had to be changed. (1 John 3:1-3; 1 Corinthians 15).
Dr. David Jeremiah said something yesterday that fits nicely with this. His message was called Strength for the Journey. Jesus is our forerunner and our finisher. We can make it all the way to the end. God isn’t interested in getting us part of the way home and then allowing us to drop out. Almighty God wants us to go all the way. He that began a good work in you will complete it. Keep your eyes on Jesus. Consider Jesus. Look to Jesus. Hebrews 12:2.
You can listen to his message here at this link if interested:
http://www.itbn.org/index/detail/ec/s1bWhpNDoLSr1m82Outuh7uyX5akY7jy
Fast forward to 18 minutes into the video to hear this part. -
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Amanda,
You stated:
LT, then are you saying we cannot pray in the Spirit without the gift of tongues or that we can because OT people empowered by the Spirit did not have the gift of tongues but prayed in the Spirit nonetheless? They received the filling but not the sealing.
I have previously said the following that answers your first point: Let me start by saying that for one to pray in tongues they must be praying in the (by) Spirit, but that praying in the Spirit is not limited to praying in tongues. Secondly, I do not know that they never prayed in tongues in the OT. There is no evidence that I am aware of that says they did, but lack of evidence does not mean that it did not happen, but simply may not be recorded. If they did then this had to be led by the Holy Spirit. Thirdly, Communication with God (prayer) is going to be through the Spirit in some fashion at all times. Think of Abimilech when he received the vision. How did it get there? Through God and the Holy Spirit is the acting agent of God on earth (I know that sounds a little secular calling Him the agent on earth, but makes the point). God the Holy Spirit moved on people in the OT as He deemed appropriate. We know that He was able to come and depart as seen in the life of King Saul. They were not born again, but yet Spirit empowered when filled by the Spirit as He came upon them. IMO too many today get hung up on Pentecost as if God was not active before or handcuffed in some way prior to Pentecost. The was a great change. The church was born and now each of God's children would be sealed with the Holy Spirit and are able to be filled with the Spirit to live out the life God has called us to live
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I have often wondered about Hannah. She prayed with great weeping and Eli thought she was drunk--drunk with the Spirit? or just broken down in her own spirit maybe.
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LT, since you posed the possibility that people who pray in tongues likely have received the second work of grace and are sanctified but may not know it has happened or know about the teaching or be aware that this is what has happened to them, then isn't it possible for many people to already have received the second work of grace but were not given tongues but another gift of the Spirit, such as knowledge or mercy, etc... and know they have the gifts but not realize it was a second work of grace called sanctification? Can a person have those gifts without being filled with the Spirit?
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You gave the rare example in your illustration of the person you know. Most people who speak in tongues recognize and understand that they have been filled with the Spirit of God. I believe that it is rare that a person will be filled and not be aware, but I believe it can happen. A.W. Tozer disagrees. He believed that no one was ever filled without knowing it. I leave room for the exception, because there are things we do not know about God and how He works.
Regarding your other question. I cannot answer your question without a tic-for-tac debate ensuing. I can tell you this with assurance. We need to spend more time seeking the Giver of the gifts than seeking the gifts. The Holy Spirit gives them as He deems appropriate, but our goal is never a gift, but God Himself.
HIMSELF
By: A. B. SimpsonOnce it was the blessing,
Now it is the Lord;
Once it was the feeling,
Now it is His Word.Once His gifts I wanted,
Now the Giver own;
Once I sought for healing,
Now Himself alone.Once 'twas painful trying,
Now 'tis perfect trust;
Once a half salvation,
Now the uttermost.Once 'twas ceaseless holding,
Now He holds me fast;Once 'twas constant drifting,
Now my anchor's cast.Once 'twas busy planning,
Now 'tis trustful prayer;
Once 'twas anxious caring,
Now He has the care.Once 'twas what I wanted
Now what Jesus says;
Once 'twas constant asking,
Now 'tis ceaseless praise.Once it was my working,
His it hence shall be;
Once I tried to use Him,
Now He uses me.Once the power I wanted,
Now the Mighty One;
Once for self I labored,
Now for Him alone.Once I hoped in Jesus,
Now I know He's mine;
Once my lamps were dying,
Now they brightly shine.
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