Blind Faith.

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 5, 2012 at 10:54am

I have many questions about your theology, Joe, and I have difficulty getting on the same page with you. I am sorry.

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Permalink Reply by JB on February 5, 2012 at 11:50am

Amanda,

I welcome your questions, you can ask on my personal page or open forum.

What ever I say, if I can’t support it with scripture, then don’t believe it.

Fair enough??

Blessings

Joe

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Permalink Reply by The evidence based Stig on February 6, 2012 at 2:52am

Faith is a response to truth and reality, that we are morally persuaded by someones character , that they are authentic, real, true, trustworthy and we can completely depend on them.

The Oxford English Dictionary defines faith as:

faith, n.
I. Belief, trust, confidence. 

 a. Confidence, reliance, trust (in the ability, goodness, etc., of a person; in the efficacy or worth of a thing; or in the truth of a statement or doctrine). Const. in, †of. In early use, only with reference to religious objects; this is still the prevalent application, and often colours the wider use.

Thomas merely needed a little more evidence to substantiate these claims and I would too. Faith that is not based on evidence is blind faith and no where in the Bible does it advocate blind faith. Some people need more evidence than others but we all need it and I would strongly question anyone who says they don't need evidence.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 6, 2012 at 1:50pm

Grazer,

 

Here is where it gets interesting. What is the evidence that we need to make a decision for Jesus? Is it the compilation of facts or conviction and enlightenment from the Holy Spirit. Only the second can truly lead to faith and salvation. The first may be used, but it in of itself cannot convince anyone without God's hand at work.

 

Many of the people who come to saving faith in Christ are never introduced to all the historical data or scientific data and yet when presented with the simple gospel they are transformed and saved by grace through faith. Why? Because this is truly the work of the Holy Spirit in leading people to salvation. (John 16:8-11; Romans 1:26: ephesians 2:8-10)

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by The evidence based Stig on February 7, 2012 at 3:57am

I don't disagree with most of what you've put there LT but if you were to replace Christianity with any other set of beliefs and they said what you (and many others) have, you would have your doubts as to the validity of their claims.

Looking back, the 2 issues I had to resolve were; did God exist and was he trustworthy enough to give my life to. There was no point in sorting the 2nd one until I had sorted the first one. Evidence was crucial, not just to his existence but that my experiences of him, were actually him and not my imagination/wishful thinking/the devil. As I said to a friend of mine when I was going through these; "It would be great if it was true but I won't believe simply on that basis, I must have evidence"

I don't need any more evidence, I have enough to take the rest on faith but the evidence underpins that faith. I'm happy for those who could simply be convicted by the holy spirit with no other external evidence and believe, I can't and would question how they even know it's the holy spirit (see last paragraph)  I trust God completely but I needed evidence to show that he was trustworthy which is no different to my interactions with any other person. If I was to meet someone today, ask them to marry me tomorrow and the only justification I gave was "I'm taking it on faith they're the one" you would think I was very strange and question me on it. It's no different with God.

It seems many Christians have bought into Dawkins's definition of faith, that it is believing without evidence. No where in history or biblically is faith defined in this manner though.

Yes I am saved by faith but I still needed evidence to show God was real and trustworthy for me to put my faith in him.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2012 at 12:00pm

Grazer,

 

I understand where you are coming from and that is why I framed my comment carefully. The question is not whether we need evidence, but rather what qualifies as evidence? I would say that this will vary from person to person, but "MUST" include the work of the Holy Spirit or it is simply head knowledge that leads to no real faith, just facts. Christianity is about finding and developing a real relationship with the living God. A God who died for us rather than told us to work to be good enough to earn His favor and love. This is the great difference between Christianity and other religions ... besides we worship the One true God.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

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Permalink Reply by Hamm on February 7, 2012 at 1:16pm

LT

"A God who died for us rather than told us to work to be good enough to earn His favor and love."

This comment means alot to me. This is where I get confused. I always thought the same. Jesus Died for our sins. If I ask for  (honest)forgiveness it will be give. If Jesus did this and I accept this and honour this then that is Christianity.

But then in other parts of the bible, I understand (rightly or wrongly) I have to be of the chosen few or tribe or family or creed to be able to be accepted by God or understand God. I have to kneel to him even though I might not be accepted into heaven or be of the chosen. Which would then indicate quite different opinions quite different believes, and that because of my obviously not been of the chosen, my faith is into something irrelevant for me, I am already doomed to the underworld, then my faith is blind to one thing and the other.

(if that makes sense)

When you said about spirit in a previous comment, it was confirmed to me by Acledes on another group, and this is has hit a nerve with me, as I would like to understand more about building the right spirit, the spirit that creates a better understanding, a spirit of peace and content for my remaining time on earth. (How ever long that is) and the rest of eternity, because I am not coming round again to earth. My learning is going to be done all this time.

Permalink Reply by The evidence based Stig on February 7, 2012 at 2:57pm

Experience is evidence in a form.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2012 at 4:00pm

Hamm,

 

"A God who died for us rather than told us to work to be good enough to earn His favor and love."

 

This comment means alot to me. This is where I get confused. I always thought the same. Jesus Died for our sins. If I ask for (honest)forgiveness it will be give. If Jesus did this and I accept this and honour this then that is Christianity.

The question we must ask is what led the person to receive Jesus as Savior? Did they follow a religious code and attempt to get God’s attention to get saved? This will not work. Salvation is enabled by God because He chases us. The Holy Spirit’s work in the salvation process is imperative. There has to be conviction that is deep in our spirits that says I am a sinner and deserve death, separation from the living God. Almost a sense of hopelessness as  I realize that there is nothing I can do to earn salvation. This conviction though does bring hope as it reveals that our sin nature can only be changed when our sins are atoned for. This conviction leads us to embrace the truth that the payment for our sin is not what we do, but simply, yet profoundly, the blood of God who died on the cross. Our forgiveness has nothing to do with what I can do, but in what Jesus did and me coming to the point of surrendering to Jesus asking Him to forgive me and save me. This is part of the repentance process. I am responding to the work of God that is leading me to salvation. Ephesians 2:8-9 states this very clearly and then we read verse 10. This verse tells us that we were created for good works, but theses good works follow the transformation that takes place at conversion/salvation. In that moment we are justified and regenerated. We are justified as in a court action that states we owed a great debt, but that debt has been paid by another. His blood is applied to my account in such a way that my account is paid in full. We are regenerated, meaning our heart is changed. 2 Corinthians 5:17 says the old is gone and the new has come. We are no longer what we were. We were a guilty sinner, now we are the children of God.

 

Let me expand on one thing that tends to confuse people. The Bible speaks of salvation in three tenses. It speaks of one who has been saved, is being saved and will be saved. These tenses make up the complete or full salvation. Do not be confused. These three pieces are part of a whole and the fulfillment of the whole is guaranteed upon the moment we are justified and regenerated. That moment is the moment we received Jesus. The being saved aspect deals with sanctification, growing in Christ-likeness in this life as a child of God. The third is called glorification and is the time in the future when we receive the new resurrected body to join our new regenerated spirit.

 

But then in other parts of the bible, I understand (rightly or wrongly) I have to be of the chosen few or tribe or family or creed to be able to be accepted by God or understand God.

This is a confusing part of the Bible that is only confused even more by various camps that teach different views on this subject. One can get weighed down in trying to figure all this out and I have a view, but rather than go in that direction I would like to encourage you to recognize that you are seeking God now. You would not be doing that if God were not at work. God is not going to be at work in your life only to tell you “Sorry, I teased you by drawing you, but you are not of the elect.” If you follow that leading, His drawing, you will find Him. He does not want you to say a simple prayer and think you are saved. He wants you to know Him personally. This is part of the evidence I speak of. There must be a conviction that tells me that Jesus is truly alive, is God, and sits at the right hand of the Father. I also recognize that He is coming back. There is no assumption on my part, but am convicted at the deepest level that this is true. In other words, doubt is removed and you are left with the reality of Jesus because the Holy Spirit led you to that conviction.

 

I have to kneel to him even though I might not be accepted into heaven or be of the chosen. Which would then indicate quite different opinions quite different believes, and that because of my obviously not been of the chosen, my faith is into something irrelevant for me, I am already doomed to the underworld, then my faith is blind to one thing and the other.

The term blind can be applied to our lives, but it is when this blindness is removed, healed, that we see Jesus. We are spiritually blind and deaf until God opens our eyes and ears. Again, the fact that you are looking for him and not just religion tells me He is at work and if He is at work then you have hope. I again would encourage you to not focus on am I or am I not part of the elect, but rather focus on Jesus and getting to know Him. If you do that the rest will take care of itself.

 

When you said about spirit in a previous comment, it was confirmed to me by Acledes on another group, and this is has hit a nerve with me, as I would like to understand more about building the right spirit, the spirit that creates a better understanding, a spirit of peace and content for my remaining time on earth. (How ever long that is) and the rest of eternity, because I am not coming round again to earth. My learning is going to be done all this time.

For clarity, let me state that the Spirit I am referring to is the Holy Spirit. He works on our spirit throughout the whole process of justification/regeneration, sanctification and glorification. The key to all of this is on word ... surrender.  

 

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on February 7, 2012 at 4:03pm

Grazer,

 

Surely experience is evidence. As stated, I do not disagree that there will be evidence. I just want to bring to light that the evidence alone cannot cause us to be saved. The evidence, of whatever nature God chooses to use, must be accompanied by the work of the Holy Spirit.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on February 7, 2012 at 8:37pm

Hamm, I am hoping this answer will help ease your mind about whether or not you are one of God's elect and many blessings to you dear friend:

Question: "How can I know if I am one of the elect?"

Answer: While there are numerous ideas of precisely what election means in regards to salvation, the fact that believers are elect is indisputable (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:4-5, 11; 1 Thessalonians 1:4). Simply put, the doctrine of election is that God chooses/determines/elects/predestines who will be saved. It is not within the scope of this article to determine how election works. Rather, the question at hand is “How can I know if I am one of the elect?” The answer is exceedingly simple: believe!

The Bible nowhere instructs us to be concerned regarding our status of elect vs. non-elect. Rather, God calls us to believe, to receive Jesus Christ as Savior, by grace through faith (John 3:16; Ephesians 2:8-9). If a person truly trusts in Jesus alone for salvation, that person is one of the elect. Whether belief secures election, or election causes belief – that is another debate. But what is sure that belief is evidence of election. No one can receive Jesus as Savior unless God draws him or her (John 6:44). God calls/draws those whom He has predestined/elected (Romans 8:29-30). Saving faith is not possible without divine election. Therefore, saving faith is evidence of election.

The idea of a person wanting to be saved but being unable to, due to not being one of the elect, is absolutely foreign to the Bible. No one seeks after God’s plan of salvation on their own accord (Romans 3:10-18). Those without Christ are blind to their need for salvation (2 Corinthians 4:4). This only changes when God begins drawing a person to Himself. It is God who opens eyes and enlightens minds to the need for Jesus Christ as Savior. A person cannot repent (change the mind about sin and the need for salvation) unless God grants repentance (Acts 11:18). Therefore, if you understand God’s plan of salvation, recognize your need for it, and feel compelled to receive Jesus Christ as your Savior, then believe, and you are saved.

If you have received Jesus Christ as your Savior, trusting Him alone for salvation, believing that His sacrifice is the full payment for your sins – congratulations, you are one of the elect.

Recommended Resource: Chosen But Free, revised edition: A Balanced View of God's Sovereignty and Free Will by Norm Geisler and The Potter's Freedom by James White.

www.gotquestions.org

Permalink Reply by The evidence based Stig on February 7, 2012 at 4:00am

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