Suicide = Hell ???

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Permalink Reply by Carla on May 28, 2008 at 12:42pm

"because eternal hell as we have been taught by the church does not exist. This doctrine of eternal hell is one of the worst lies ever. Eternal hell is not taught in the scriptures. Maybe some bible translations use the word hell, but it is not an accurate translation"

Hello Jason,
I have pasted your quote above. I would really like a further explanation.
Could you please explain what you mean by this. Thank you.
~Carla

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Permalink Reply by Carla on May 28, 2008 at 2:09pm

Hi Jason,

Thank you for your response. Could you substantiate with scripture please to back-up your claims?

Thanks~Living For My King of all Kings, Carla

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Permalink Reply by Carla on May 28, 2008 at 2:43pm

You cannot substantiate claims that are false. There is no complete scripture revealed in it's complete context which would substantiate your claims.

~Carla

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 28, 2008 at 2:17pm

There are several principles when understanding Scripture beyond just the definition based on the language of choice. One, there was no word available within those languages to describe the place of hell. Context and culture also come into play when discerning the truth. Lets take a look at context with me changing out the word "hell" for you concept and then explain the logic behind the text.

In all of the following exchange the word "hell" with the word "Dump and it will make no sense in the context or little sense at best. Nice way of trying to remove the eternal judgment yet to come.

MT 5:21 "You have heard that it was said to the people long ago, `Do not murder, and anyone who murders will be subject to judgment.' 22 But I tell you that anyone who is angry with his brother will be subject to judgment. Again, anyone who says to his brother, `Raca, ' is answerable to the Sanhedrin. But anyone who says, `You fool!' will be in danger of the fire of hell.

MT 5:27 "You have heard that it was said, `Do not commit adultery.' 28 But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to lose one part of your body than for your whole body to go into hell.

MT 10:26 "So do not be afraid of them. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. 27 What I tell you in the dark, speak in the daylight; what is whispered in your ear, proclaim from the roofs. 28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

MT 18:7 "Woe to the world because of the things that cause people to sin! Such things must come, but woe to the man through whom they come! 8 If your hand or your foot causes you to sin cut it off and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life maimed or crippled than to have two hands or two feet and be thrown into eternal fire. 9 And if your eye causes you to sin, gouge it out and throw it away. It is better for you to enter life with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into the fire of hell.
(More to come)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 28, 2008 at 2:21pm

MT 23:15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

MT 23:33 "You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell? 34 Therefore I am sending you prophets and wise men and teachers. Some of them you will kill and crucify; others you will flog in your synagogues and pursue from town to town. 35 And so upon you will come all the righteous blood that has been shed on earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah son of Berekiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. 36 I tell you the truth, all this will come upon this generation.

LK 12:4 "I tell you, my friends, do not be afraid of those who kill the body and after that can do no more. 5 But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into hell. Yes, I tell you, fear him.

This one even mentions after death. (Greek word hades here)
LK 16:22 "The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham's side. The rich man also died and was buried. 23 In hell, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. 24 So he called to him, `Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.'

JAS 3:3 When we put bits into the mouths of horses to make them obey us, we can turn the whole animal. 4 Or take ships as an example. Although they are so large and are driven by strong winds, they are steered by a very small rudder wherever the pilot wants to go. 5 Likewise the tongue is a small part of the body, but it makes great boasts. Consider what a great forest is set on fire by a small spark. 6 The tongue also is a fire, a world of evil among the parts of the body. It corrupts the whole person, sets the whole course of his life on fire, and is itself set on fire by hell.
(More to come)

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 28, 2008 at 2:26pm

And what do we do with the Lake of Fire which refers to the judgment yet to come where death and hades will end up. I will agree with one confusion. The end result is the Lake of Fire, not hades. (Rev. 20:14-15).

Here is the key to the whole thing: Yo can argue words all you want, but in the end there is a judgment and an eternal damnation for the lost. The Bible is clear about that. If you reject that, you reject the Word of God itself.

LT

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 28, 2008 at 3:08pm

Praise God for His Powerful Word. Amen
LT

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Permalink Reply by AAG Netguy on May 28, 2008 at 2:35pm

I deleted your comment, not because of the claims you were making, but because you were linking to website that teaches false and unbiblical doctrine which is a violation of our Membership Agreement (which you must adhere to in order to remain a member of this network). Please see the link to the membership agreement on the MAIN page.

If you do not wish to adhere to this agreement, please leave. Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by AAG Netguy on May 28, 2008 at 2:30pm

Jason,

You've neglected to take Jesus' words into account on this subject.

Please read this taken from http://www.gotquestions.org/hell-real-eternal.html

"Studies show that over 90% of people in the world believe in a "heaven" while less than 50% believe in an eternal hell. According to the Bible, hell is most definitely real! The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never-ending as the bliss of the righteous in Heaven. The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as "everlasting fire" (Matthew 25:41), "unquenchable fire" (Matthew 3:12), "shame and everlasting contempt" (Daniel 12:2), a place where "their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched" (Mark 9:44-49), a place of "torments" and "flame" (Luke 16:23,24), "everlasting destruction" (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place of torment with "fire and brimstone" where "the smoke of their torment ascends forever and ever" (Revelation 14:10,11), and a "lake of fire and brimstone" where the wicked are "tormented day and night forever and ever" (Revelation 20:10). Jesus Himself indicates that the punishment in hell itself is everlasting - not merely the smoke and flames (Matthew 25:46).

"The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God in hell. They consciously suffer shame and contempt and the assaults of an accusing conscience -- along with the fiery wrath of an offended deity -- for all of eternity. Even those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalms 76:10). Those who are in the very real hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end! Praise God that through Jesus, we can escape this eternal fate (John 3:16,18,36).

I'm sorry, Jason, I had to remove your earlier post because it contained a link to a website advocating false doctrine. According to Jesus, hell is REAL and ETERNAL. Please do not promote or advocate your teaching here on TheNET as it is unbiblical and a violation of our Membership Agreement. Thank you.

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Permalink Reply by AAG Netguy on May 29, 2008 at 10:30am

Brad,

Thanks for your question. God, in the Bible, tells us there are two categories of people: the "righteous" and the "wicked". The righteous are called that not because they are perfect or have never sinned, but because they are trusting in Jesus Christ and in doing so, God declares them to be righteous. God gives them a new heart and then because of that they start to do righteous things like love God and love others. So, it is because of their trust in Jesus that they start doing good. And it is on the basis of their trust in Jesus Christ and what Jesus has done for them that God "saves" them from hell.

The wicked, on the other hand, are people still in their natural state. The Bible teaches that all people are born into this world as sinners, separated from God. They may do "good" things and may do them often, but as far as God is concerned, since they do not have relationship with Him through his Son, Jesus, "all our righteous acts are like filthy rags" to Him (Isaiah 64:6).

The Bible tells us that, in the beginning, Lucifer, the highest and most beautiful angel rebelled against God and one-third of the angels joined him in that rebellion. Since they hated God and became his enemy, God created hell as place of punishment for them. Lucifer became Satan (or the devil) and his followers, the rebellious angels, became demons.

Imagine for a moment that you were the president of our country and you were the best, most wise and benevolent president that we ever had. Now imagine that, through no fault of yours, one-third of your government rose up against you, made war on you, made every attempt to subvert you, slander you, and kill you and your family. And in their hate for you, they set out to make life sheer misery for everyone still loyal to you. What would such people deserve? Being a traitor, as far as I know, is still a capital offense in this country. The government of the U.S. has said that such people are worth of the death sentence.

When Adam and Eve sinned, what they chose to do was live a life of disobedience and separation from God too. In effect, they allied themselves with Satan and became traitors, enemies of God. Therefore, the Bible says, all of Adam and Eve's descendents (mankind) are now effectively enemies of God. Accordingly, in God's sight, they all deserve what Satan is going to get -- hell -- which is a place of eternal separation from God and all His wonderful attributes. So, yes, separation from the Lord is torture because everything good is found in God and in the absense of anything good the only thing left is sheer evil.

The thing to remember is that God is under absolutely no obligation to save anyone from hell. We have no clue how odious and destable our sin is to God, how much of an insult it is to Him, how our filthy lives are a continual stench in his nostrils. Ezekiel chapter 16 is a good picture of what God has done for people in spite of how we treat Him. The fact that he chooses to save anyone is a miracle and it is totally because he is gracious and merciful.

I hope this helps explain why people so richly deserve eternal hell and yet how merciful God is to extend to us traitors and rebels his gift of eternal life through His Son Jesus Christ.

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Permalink Reply by AAG Netguy on May 29, 2008 at 1:28pm

Brad,

Instead of writing my own explanation, I will cut and paste:

LUCIFER

[LOU see fur] (morning star) - the Latin name for the planet Venus. The word Lucifer [in the King James Version] appears only once in the Bible (Isaiah 14:12). Literally, the passage describes the overthrow of a tyrant, the king of Babylon. But many Bible scholars see in this passage a description of SATAN, who rebelled against the throne of God and was "brought down to Sheol, to the lowest depths of the Pit" (Isa 14:15). The same kind of interpretation is often given to Ezekiel 28:11-19. The description of the king of Tyre thus is believed to reach beyond that of an earthly ruler to the archangel [Lucifer] who was cast out of heaven for leading a revolt against God.

(from Nelson's Illustrated Bible Dictionary, Copyright (c)1986, Thomas Nelson Publishers)

Both Bible references are cryptic and subject to some debate, but it does seem plausable that these Bible references also refer to angelic beings.

Revelation 12:4 is the passage which seems to infer that the dragon (Satan, or the devil, Revelation 20:2) swept a third of the "stars" from the sky. "Stars" is an Old Testament term that is often used of angels.

The fact that these references in the Bible are cryptic and shadowy, I believe, signifies that God doesn't see much use in us spending time pondering the origin or the workings of the demonic.

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Permalink Reply by christelle on May 28, 2008 at 5:30pm

Wow, that's a tough subject. I was raised in a religion that was heavy on Bible memorization and also taught salvation by Baptism. I was always told suicide is a "body is the temple of God sin" and that since you can't pray for forgiveness for it you will go to hell.

I'm saved now and no longer believe this. I will say this...a lot of people will tell you that if your saved you'll never be depressed. SOOOOO not true. Although I have no longer been suicidal since I got saved, I made the decision this week to get busy on a diet and excersize program because I realized that inadvertantly I have been trying to "kill myself by default". I'm even considering weight loss surgery.

So...I guess I haven't answered your question...other than to say the God knows we get sad. "Racheal would not be comforted because her children were no more" (can't remember exact book and verse). That's my favorite verse on God's understanding of our pain. It's for God to say who gets to heaven and who gets to hell......I guess we just have to trust in His mercy and love. Also...talk to Him about it. You'll feel less depressed if you have a good cleansing cry with God, might not make it all completly better right away...but it will help

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