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Joel Osteen Sermon!

I recently watched a Joel Olsteen sermon online and his message was that we should wake up everyday and expect God to give us good things in our life. "Today, God will do something good for me." I feel like his motivational message was keeping a "half glass full" attitude, but I just didn't feel comfortable thinking with the mindset to expect goodness from God just because I am following his will. Of course it feels amazing when God blesses me with his good graces & gifts, but it just didn't seem right to EXPECT something. Your thoughts?

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 29, 2011 at 10:49am

1Ti 1:1 Paul, an apostle of Christ Jesus according to the commandment of God our Savior, and of Christ Jesus, who is our hope,

1Ti 1:2 To Timothy, my true child in the faith: Grace, mercy and peace from God the Father and Christ Jesus our Lord.

1Ti 1:3 As I urged you upon my departure for Macedonia, remain on at Ephesus so that you may instruct certain men not to teach strange doctrines,

1Ti 1:4 nor to pay attention to myths and endless genealogies, which give rise to mere speculation rather than furthering the administration of God which is by faith.

1Ti 1:5 But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

1Ti 1:6 For some men, straying from these things, have turned aside to fruitless discussion,

1Ti 1:7 wanting to be teachers of the Law, even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions.

1Ti 1:8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,

1Ti 1:9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous person, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers

1Ti 1:10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

1Ti 1:11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.

1Ti 1:12 I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who has strengthened me, because He considered me faithful, putting me into service,

1Ti 1:13 even though I was formerly a blasphemer and a persecutor and a violent aggressor. Yet I was shown mercy because I acted ignorantly in unbelief;

1Ti 1:14 and the grace of our Lord was more than abundant, with the faith and love which are found in Christ Jesus.

1Ti 1:15 It is a trustworthy statement, deserving full acceptance, that Christ Jesus came into the world to save sinners, among whom I am foremost of all.

1Ti 1:16 Yet for this reason I found mercy, so that in me as the foremost, Jesus Christ might demonstrate His perfect patience as an example for those who would believe in Him for eternal life.

1Ti 1:17 Now to the King eternal, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honor and glory forever and ever. Amen.

1Ti 1:18 This command I entrust to you, Timothy, my son, in accordance with the prophecies previously made concerning you, that by them you fight the good fight,

1Ti 1:19 keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and suffered shipwreck in regard to their faith.

1Ti 1:20 Among these are Hymenaeus and Alexander, whom I have handed over to Satan, so that they will be taught not to blaspheme.

(Scripture from NASB)

Permalink Reply by RoyW on December 29, 2011 at 2:22pm

Wow! I wonder if Hodie86 is following this discussion. It has almost 80 replies. I was looking through looking for his comments and didn't see any. Anyway it has been a wonderful discussion. I've enjoyed everyone's input.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 29, 2011 at 8:24pm

Sometimes I wonder why God permits spiritual abuse to happen and the ones who are newly born seem to be the biggest targets and fatalities of it. I wonder what I might have done differently that would have kept me from falling prey to it. I was too naive I guess and too trusting.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 30, 2011 at 12:19am

Thanks for saying that, Nancy. I don't know if I will ever be a help or a blesing to anyone ever again...but it is a nice thought.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 30, 2011 at 12:20am

Janie, I know God is not to blame but since this happens, it is within His permissive will. But I do trust God.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 29, 2011 at 7:57pm

Michelle,

I did an indepth study not long ago about judging and making judgments, and here is part of it, and I have paraphrased some things here but I don't remember all the references and some of this is word for word from my memory.

When Jesus says do not judge so that you will not be judged, He is not forbidding Christians to judge. He is warning that we will be held accountable for what we know. In other words, if we know enough about sinful behavior to tell others that it is wrong, then we have no excuse as to why that sin would be present in our lives. This is consistent with Paul's advice in I Corinthians 11:31-32 that we judge ourselves first so that we will not be judged. As Jesus says, we should cast the beam out of our own eye and then we are in position to point out the fault to others.

In my initial post in this forum, I stated what I believe about Joel's ministry. My judgment is based on what I have learned about the full message--we must preach Christ's love but God also has wrath for unbelievers and God hates sin and Scripture even says that God hates evildoers. His hatred is not like human hatred. It is just and right and fair.

Here is something we often hear, and I have been rebuked with this too, and I disagree with it but here it is--this is what we are taught and also it is what Joel teaches IMO:

"As brothers and sisters in the Lord, we must not question or judge one another because God alone is our judge. If someone is in error, it is not for us to point it out. After all, no one has it all right and God will correct them if they are wrong. To judge another person is not only unloving, but is against Scripture."

Yet, throughout Scripture, God warns us about these false prophets, false brethren, false apostles, etc. Is His direction for us to accept these individuals without question in a show of love? No.

They can, as it says in the Scripture which LT posted, shipwreck your faith just as their's is already shipwrecked.

You're doing great, Michelle. You're telling people what they need to hear though many may not want to hear it.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 29, 2011 at 8:14pm

This post is good also, Michelle.

How do we identify false brethren? Because they preach and live a gospel that is a perversion of the Word of God. (Isaiah 8:20)

I am not saying Joel has gone to this extreme. I do not listen to him though. Maybe I should and he might motivate me and make me feel better, which I desperately need, but it all sounds like cliches to me. I am looking for something less shallow.

Scripture not only tells us how to identify the false, but does it show us how to recognize the true Body of Christ? We know them by their fruit. Yes, I hear that alot. It makes me cringe and I wonder do I have any visible fruit? Maybe not.

The Church of Scientology is a good example of a false doctrine. Remember Jonestown? Jones is a good example of a false prophet.

Take heed unto thyself, and unto the doctrine; continue in them: for in doing this thou shalt both save thyself, and them that hear thee." (I Timothy 4:16)

Why must we "take heed" for not only our own selves but for the doctrine? What does that mean?
Is God saying to pay attention to, watch out for, take care of the doctrine. Why?
IMO Because not all doctrine is sound doctrine. I have learned that the hard way.

AAG teaches sound doctrine. Listen to them.

There are other gospels. The prosperity gospel is only one. It is precisely because there are these other "gospels" that we are warned to hold fast to what was given to us originally. (II Corinthians
11:4; Galatians 1:6-7;Titus 1:9; II Peter 3:1-13; I Timothy 1:6-7; Romans 6:17; Acts 2:42; Revelation 3:3)

Yet, the only way that we can hold fast to the Gospel is if we can discern or judge between the true and the false. (Hebrews 5:13-14) Once again, the Word of God is presented as the standard for such an evaluation.
The Holy Spirit helps us a lot, too.

Why is judging doctrine so important? Because there are doctrines that can jeopardize your faith and even your salvation.

I learned the hard way.

Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on December 30, 2011 at 4:49am

Amanda,

I believe you are correct in your explanation.

This comment of Joel's is incorrect because it sounds like it's wrong to judge (condemn) and it's wrong to judge (discern). If a person is in error, it is up to us to point it out in *some manner*. One doesn't need to be rude or crude about it. Most everything can be pointed out through scripture without giving offense to another.

What we don't understand is that most people have small knowledge of the Word of God. Because of this, they can make decisions based on what they don't understand. If we know the right way but don't share it with them in a kind and gentle manner, then we are wrong.

The word *judge* is a huge word with a huge number of meanings.

God certainly doesn't want us to condemn anyone for anything...however, we are condemn actions of another person, but not the person himself. It works like hatred. Hate the sin, not the sinner.

I personally like Joel Osteen but not so much what he preaches. I learned a lot from his father before he went home to be with the Lord but Joel just puts a different slant on things that don't quite measure up IMHO. There are many who would say that I've just judged him, but I call it discernment. :-)

Blessings,

Rita

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 30, 2011 at 7:24am

Rita, this is not a verbatim comment of Osteen's. This is a summation of the idealogy that preachers like Osteen often adhere to.

I just wanted to clarify that.

There is a very subtle difference between discerning and judging. True discernment does not come with the desire that someone gets what is coming to them because it does not condemn but simply sees something with the eyes and the mind of Christ--sees that something as it really is.

Jesus discerned things about people. A good example is the woman at the well, what He discerned about her that day. Also the rich young ruler. And the woman who was about to be stoned. And there are many more instances.

God discerns things clearly and in love.

People have trouble with doing that.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on December 30, 2011 at 7:38am

There is another point to judging that most people miss. In a court of law dealing with civil suits there is usually a defendant and a plaintiff. The jusge will render a verdict either for the one and against the other or vise-a-versa. There can also be a verdict that lays partial responsibility on both. The point of this is that there are judgments that are both judgments for and judgments against. To judge, or judgment, in of itself is neutral. The outcome is based on the evidence presented.

We do not judge the the eternal soul of a person, that is God's alone to judge either for or against, but we do make judgments based on Scripture as to what is true and right regarding teaching and lifestyles. The result of the judgment is based upon the offense or the positve thing being upheld.

Our human nature wants to see judgment as a negative thing when in reality it is not negative, even if the verdict is against the teaching of a teacher, if the judgment is Scripturally sound.

Lord Bless,

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on December 30, 2011 at 11:31am

Amen beloved LT

We are people saved by grace and grace alone, so we love to give grace to all in the family and those outside of it.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on December 30, 2011 at 5:04pm

To judge, or judgment, in of itself is neutral. The outcome is based on the evidence presented.

I don't know that I would say that it is neutral. Should it be? Yes, it would be nice if it could be. Human judgment though is not neutral. Neutral would mean it would have to be value-free. Neither moral nor political judgments are value-free. Is it right for anyone to impose their personal values on someone? I can't think of anytime or any instance that it doesn't happen though. Not even in a court of law. Any judgment call between two alternatives such as regarding right and wrong must be made on a personal basis. Non-judgmental is the opposite.

Joel Osteen Sermon!

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