Science and the evolution of Christianity - scope for understanding?

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 6, 2011 at 9:04am

Dean, when we are born into this world, we are spiritually dead and completely separated from God. In fact, we were conceived in sin. Psalm 51:5 says Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

You wrote: We must get out of the box of our limited knowledge. If we continue in our limited knowledge scripture can be argued in every direction

Scripture must be taught and I admit it is very difficult to get through all the opinions and personal beliefs surrounding the absolute truth. Nevertheless we must not give up and we must pray for knowledge and wisdom. We will never "get out of the box of our limited knowledge" as long as we are in this world. The biggest mistake we end up making is trying to put God in that box with us.

We are spiritually made alive in Christ. Ephesians 2:4-5 says, But because of his great love for us, God, who is rich in mercy made us alive with Christ even when we were dead in transgressions--it is by grace you have been saved.

For those who are saved, they are saved spiritually. The body will still die unless it is changed in the twinkling of an eye at the last trump. (Even so, come Lord Jesus) Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. We look forward to our resurrection and a glorified body.

Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when he appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.--1 John 3:2

Here is a good article, however I realize that those who believe in evolution (or change in the way you are equating evolution and change) will not fully accept this teaching : How is physical death related to spiritual death?

Answer: The Bible has a great deal to say about death and, more importantly, what happens after death. Physical death and spiritual death are both a separation of one thing from another. Physical death is the separation of the soul from the body, and spiritual death is the separation of the soul from God. When understood in that way, the two concepts are very closely related, and both physical death and spiritual death are reflected in the very first references to death.

In the creation account (Genesis 1–2), we read how God created a variety of living beings. These animals had life, an inward element that gave movement and energy to their physical bodies. Scientists are still at a loss to explain what truly causes life, but the Bible is clear that God gives life to all things (Genesis 1:11-28; 1 Timothy 6:13). The life that God gave to mankind was different from that which He gave to animals. In Genesis 2:7, we are told that God “breathed into his nostrils the breath of life, and man became a living soul.” Whereas animals have a purely physical life, humans have both a physical and a spiritual element of life, and the death we experience likewise has both a physical and a spiritual element.

According to Genesis 2:17, God told Adam that if he ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, he would “surely die.” Some skeptics have tried to use this verse to show an inconsistency in the Bible, because Adam and Eve did not die the very day they ate of that fruit. In the Hebrew, it literally says, “dying you will die.” It indicates a process that has a definite starting point, and continues into the future. When they sinned (Genesis 3:7), Adam and Eve immediately knew their guilt. With that guilt came a shame which caused them to try and hide from God, because they had become spiritually dead, or separated from Him.

In addition to the immediate spiritual death they experienced, they also began the process of physical death, even though it took many years for death to have its full effect. This can be better understood with the example of a flower. When you see a flower growing in a garden, you know it is alive, because it is connected to the stem and the roots, and is receiving nourishment from the ground. When you separate the flower from its life source, it still has the appearance of life, and can maintain that appearance for several days, depending on the conditions. Regardless of the care it is given, though, it is already dying, and that process cannot be reversed. The same is true for mankind.

The physical death that entered into the world with Adam's sin (Romans 5:12) affected all living things. It is difficult for us to conceive of a world without death, but that is what Scripture teaches was the condition before the Fall. All living things began the process of dying when sin entered the world. When physical death occurs, there is a definite separation of the life force from the body. When that separation occurs, there is nothing man can do to reverse it (even the medical community acknowledges the difference between a “clinical death” and a “biological death”). The wages of sin is death (Romans 6:23), and death comes upon all men because all have sinned. Everyone is subject to physical death because of the presence of sin in this world, as well as their own personal sins. From a human perspective, physical death seems to be the ultimate punishment, but the Bible teaches there are deeper meanings of death to be considered.

The life that God breathed into Adam (Genesis 2:7) was more than just animal life; it was the breath of God, resulting in a being with a soul. Adam was created spiritually alive, connected to God in a special way. He enjoyed a relationship with God, but when he sinned, that relationship was broken. Spiritual death has implications both before and after physical death. Though Adam was still physically alive (but beginning the dying process), he became spiritually dead, separated from relationship with God. In this present life on earth, the effect of spiritual death is the loss of God's favor as well as the knowledge of and desire for God. Scripture is clear that everyone begins life “dead in trespasses and sins” (Ephesians 2:1-5), resulting in a life focused on our sinful desires. Jesus taught that the remedy for spiritual death is a spiritual rebirth (John 3:3-5) through faith in Him. This rebirth is a re-connection to the source of life, which Jesus pictured in John 15:1-6. He is the vine, and we are the branches. Without being connected to Him, we have no life in us, but when we have Jesus, we have real life (1 John 5:11-12).

For those who refuse to accept God's salvation, physical death and spiritual death culminate in the “second death” (Revelation 20:14). This eternal death is not annihilation, as some have taught, but is a conscious, eternal punishment for sins in the lake of fire, described as being separated from the presence of the Lord (2 Thessalonians 1:9). Jesus also spoke of this eternal separation from God in Matthew 25:41 and identified the conscious torment of individuals in the story of rich man and Lazarus (Luke 16:19-31). God is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 Peter 3:9), so they do not have to remain spiritually dead. To repent means to turn away from sin, and includes confessing sin to God with sorrow for violating His holiness. Those who have received God's salvation have turned from death to life (1 John 3:14), and the second death has no power over them (Revelation 20:6).

Recommended Resource: The Wonder of Heaven: A Biblical Tour of Our Eternal Home by Ron Rhodes.

 

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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on November 6, 2011 at 10:32am

Very interesting article accept the act the writer forgets the tree of life . By the way the tree that will be in the New Jerusalem used to heal the nations. The writer is right  both deaths are a seperation one the seperation from the physical the other the death I would pray none have to know seperation from God. In fact I think god has that same hope. That none would perish.  But again we in our limited knowledge say that is impossable. Yet God Himself says it. Another question do we take God's word literally or not.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 6, 2011 at 4:21pm

Another question do we take God's word literally or not.

I don't particularly like this question. Saying simply yes doesn't really give an accurate answer. I think it is an ambiguous question--the way it is often asked. That is not to say that someone who would ask it has the wrong motives. I think that, as a follower of Christ who believes in the whole Bible, for me to answer yes actually means something different than what the questioner means who is asking this. Do I believe the unusual things the Bible talks about? The fish that swallowed Jonah? The literal 6 days of creation in 24 hour periods? Yes. I believe these things. Jesus says, Love one another. He meant it literally. The things that are not controversial--no one has a problem with the literal interpretation. I take the first chapters of Genesis literally. I believe what the words say. When do you take a passage literally, Dean, and when do you not?

Do I take the Bible literally? I ask God to give me the wisdom and the knowledge and the faith and the grace to be able to take it in just the way He meant it and just the way He intended it.

Does God have hope? That is a great question. Since He is all-knowing and all-seeing does He need faith? God is not willing that any perish. He is longsuffering. Yet, He knows exactly how many will suffer eternally in hell. Does He need to hope they will not do so?

People who are lost are totally separated from God and spiritually dead right now, Dean, even while they are alive for to be without God is to be without hope and to still be in the world. Pretty sad, huh? The lost on the face of the earth are totally separated from God spiritually and are dead in their tresspasses and sins from the moment of conception and are also dying a physical death.

True, that separation does not have to be eternal. Jesus is the only hope we have for eternal life. But we don't just decide to accept Jesus and be saved. God must enable it. He must open the heart. Science cannot convince us to believe in God. I cannot convince anyone to believe in God. Nor can you convince someone. Only God convinces us. Through His Word and through His Spirit. God is light and light reveals. God must open the human heart to respond to the Gospel message.

Here is a good article: Can / Should we interpret the Bible as literal?

Answer: Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).

One reason we should take the Bible literally is because the Lord Jesus Christ took it literally. Whenever the Lord Jesus quoted from the Old Testament, it was always clear that He believed in its literal interpretation. As an example, when Jesus was tempted by Satan in Luke 4, He answered by quoting the Old Testament. If God’s commands in Deuteronomy 8:3, 6:13, and 6:16 were not literal, Jesus would not have used them and they would have been powerless to stop Satan’s mouth, which they certainly did.

The disciples also took the commands of Christ (which are part of the Bible) literally. Jesus commanded the disciples to go and make more disciples in Matthew 28:19-20. In Acts 2 and following, we find that the disciples took Jesus' command literally and went throughout the known world of that time preaching the gospel of Christ and telling them to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved” (Acts 16:31). Just as the disciples took Jesus’ words literally, so must we. How else can we be sure of our salvation if we do not believe Him when He says He came to seek and save the lost (Luke 19:10), pay the penalty for our sin (Matthew 26:28), and provide eternal life (John 6:54)?

Although we take the Bible literally, there are still figures of speech within its pages. An example of a figure of speech would be that if someone said "it is raining cats and dogs outside," you would know that they did not really mean that cats and dogs were falling from the sky. They would mean it is raining really hard. There are figures of speech in the Bible which are not to be taken literally, but those are obvious. (See Psalm 17:8 for example.)

Finally, when we make ourselves the final arbiters of which parts of the Bible are to be interpreted literally, we elevate ourselves above God. Who is to say, then, that one person’s interpretation of a biblical event or truth is any more or less valid than another’s? The confusion and distortions that would inevitably result from such a system would essentially render the Scriptures null and void. The Bible is God’s Word to us and He meant it to be believed—literally and completely.

Recommended Resource: Basic Bible Interpretation by Roy Zuck.

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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on November 6, 2011 at 8:31pm

In the beginning of the article I appreciate the writers statement. Answer: Not only can we take the Bible literally, but we must take the Bible literally. This is the only way to determine what God really is trying to communicate to us. When we read any piece of literature, but especially the Bible, we must determine what the author intended to communicate. Many today will read a verse or passage of Scripture and then give their own definitions to the words, phrases, or paragraphs, ignoring the context and author’s intent. But this is not what God intended, which is why God tells us to correctly handle the Word of truth (2 Timothy 2:15).
The name Adam where does it come from. It is good if we all understood the actual Hebrew. possably someday I will fortunate enough to do so.

 

The idea of  6-24hr periods as man knows  or 1 man  does that actually change your trust in The Lord.  For me I appreciate your understanding may not totally agree with it yet I appreciate it. Your understanding doesn't in anyway indicate to me a lake of belief in Christ and what He did.

As for your author he goes on to use a scare tactic to drive home his view. If you do not accept one Adam you can not recieve salvation. Well I am sorry those tactics are what cause division. I believe God would much rather unity and growth.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 6, 2011 at 5:16pm

I, too, have questions, Dean, regarding the tree of life. Had Adam and Eve eaten from it instead of the forbidden tree, might they have known God in a much more meaningful way?

Did they just need to eat from it once? Or is it a tree that must be eaten from everyday in order to live forever?

Had they eaten of it would they have not even wanted to eat from the forbidden tree?

On and on...but you know what...it all happened as foreseen, didn't it? God has always been in control...

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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on November 6, 2011 at 7:59pm

Amanda yoy are abso;ute;y right God is in control. The amazing part of God's control is the responsability He gives to us.

Yes God draws us to Him does He need our help no not at all but He does demand it. He uses you and I to draw people.

Taking scripture literally you are right again. interpret scripture well we can do that but we only do that in our understanding. 6 days yes but how long is a day to God how long is an hour to God. Time as we know it was made for man not man for time. And literally ther were other people.

The lost die a physical death and so do the saved. Again it is the spiritual death seperation from God that is true death.You are speaking with someone who has suffered physical death more than once and Praise The Lord He was ther each time. Physical death with The Lord is not to be feared.Or should I say need not be feared.

As far as taking the Lord's word literally by all means we must. Yet we must be careful not to measure His word from our limited knowledge.

The tree of life I read in Isaiah and Revelation both make it understood it is taken of repeatedly to heal the nations.

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Permalink Reply by JB on November 6, 2011 at 10:14pm

I think I am going to jump in here and give my views on creation vs. evolution.

Now for a Christian to say that he believes in evolution would sound; would you say, ludicrous, or blasphemous? However let me explain, first I do not teach this nor do I take a tenacious stand on it. But when we look at scripture, literally, we don’t always understand what is being said Spiritually. The Words that I speak unto you, they are Spirit and they are life. The Natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. for they are foolishness unto him.......but spiritually understood.

But in the first verse “God created the heavens and the earth, the earth was without form and void” ask yourself, what was the earth void of? I would say life! Darkness was upon the face of the deep, darkness is indicative of death. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters, [look up waters in the Strong‘s Concordance] and God said let there be light, [light is indicative of life] and there was light or [life] Jo.1:4, in Him was life and the life was the light of men. And the Evening. & Morning, Were the 1^st day.

I believe that when He (His Spirit) moved upon the face of the earth “waters”, He “impregnated mother earth” or put into the earth, His Spirit, which is Life, the light of men. Because when He said in the 11^th vs. or 3^rd day He said “let the earth bring forth grass and the herb yielding seed, and the fruit tree yielding fruit after his kind, whose seed is in itself upon the earth: and it was so.” and the earth brought forth grass, and herb yielding seed after his kind, and the tree yielding fruit, who’s seed was in itself, after his kind: and God saw that it was good. And the E & M.= 3^rd. day.

So what I wanted to bring out is, the statement “let the earth bring forth…..” I don’t believe it just jumped out of the ground with fruit and seed in itself instantly, can or could God do it? Never a doubt in my mind. But in light of scriptures that says, “a thousand years is as a day with the Lord and a day as a thousand years.” it is also possible for it to have taken, a 3 thousand year period to have fully developed. As with us when we plant a seed, it takes time to grow, or to come forth.

Also the luminaries “lights” were not put in until the 4^th day. The greater light to rule the day and the lesser to rule the night. Look at the 14^th vs. the lights to divide the day and night, and for signs, for seasons, days and years. So I don’t believe that the days “the lengths there of” were the same as the days of creation.

Notice also the waters were to “bring forth” creatures that hath life, and also even the fouls of the air were brought forth from the waters. 24^th let the earth “bring forth” living creatures, cattle, creeping things………, It doesn’t say that the cattle and creeping things were created as mankind was, but the earth brought them forth. 26 let us make man after our image. and likeness. “Remember, God was, and is a Spirit” Also remember; the dust that God created man kind out of, had not been cursed yet. So could it have been that God created mankind as “immortal” and not mortal, to live forever?

I heard a preacher say one time from the pulpit, that God had to be the first to shed blood, “because” “reasoning again” He made them coats of skin, so He must have killed an animal, and guess what I think it was? He said, it must have been a sheep.

Well I happen to believe that the coats of skin that He gave Adam and Eve, was the same deteriorating skin that we are in today, Reasoning says that , if they were made in the likeness and image of God they were created Spirits, and the death that they experienced was “when they ate of the tree” seperation from God, “spiritual death“, and the body became mortal at that time. LOL [reasoning again on my part.]

But like I said before; this is not what I preach nor teach, I don’t usually get into this kind of discussions, because all it is; is conjecture, and the bible says to stay away from these unlearned questions, because they do gender strife, or something like that.

So I just leave it up to God, if He wants us to know for sure, He will reveal it to those that are able to receive it. Obviously we are not able to receive it yet. At least me.

The only thing I teach or preach is, Jesus Christ and Him Crucified, and the things that God has revealed to me by His Spirit.

Something to think about anyway.

Blessings,

Joe

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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on November 7, 2011 at 4:48am

Joe   :

Love the way you expressed tthis.  I have to agree with you  especially the paragraph

So I just leave it up to God, if He wants us to know for sure, He will reveal it to those that are able to receive it. Obviously we are not able to receive it yet. At least me.

Thankyou for jumping in.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 7, 2011 at 6:50am

Joe, I know we can't all be right but we could all be wrong. Does it matter? The essentials do matter. What matters most to me is to know Jesus and to be known by Him.

Blessings to you...

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 7, 2011 at 4:27am

Dean,

Time as we know it was made for man not man for time. And literally ther were other people.

So you believe there were other people who were not descendants of Adam and Eve? This POV presents all sorts of problems regarding the Gospel message which you may not be enabled to fully grasp.

The lost die a physical death and so do the saved. Again it is the spiritual death seperation from God that is true death

Yes, we must all die a physical death because we are all sinners. We are all born spiritually dead and already separated from God. If you are fully saved, then you are no longer spiritually separated from God, nor will you ever be again. Again being the key word.

As far as taking the Lord's word literally by all means we must. Yet we must be careful not to measure His word from our limited knowledge.

My personal belief is that we must take the Bible the way God meant it and intended it and in order to do that we must pray for the wisdom that only He can give us--the spiritual eyes and ears and knowledge. I suppose by limited knowledge you mean our intellect. As we walk in His light, He will shine more light for us and we will see and know more.

I have nothing new to add but thank you for the exchange. I firmly believe in the six literal days of creation as being 24 hour periods of time relevant to human days such as we have today with an evening and a morning.

Many read 2 Peter 3:8 and reckon it must be God's time reckoning. Does the Bible even say that God has a different time reckoning from man's time scale? As you said time was made for man and not man for time.

What did Peter mean? He said "one day is ... as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day". I do not see a mathematical formula here of 1 day = 1000 years.

In context what was he discussing? It's definitely not the 6 days of Creation.

It's about the faithfulness of God for which we can all be very thankful.

What God has said will come to pass and every promise has a time of fulfillment. God is not slack concerning what He has promised. We might think He is taking a long time but everything is still right on schedule.

What about the Last Day, or the Day of the Lord--the Second Coming? Do you think it will take 1000 years to unfold according to time as it is relevant to man? How fast is the twinkling of an eye? That is how fast some people will be changed from mortal to immortal. If many, many people can be changed that fast, why is so difficult to believe that God created one man and one woman in a 24 hour period of time on the 6th day?

God will be faithful and keep His promises. But that's the way I see it. You need not agree.

 

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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on November 7, 2011 at 4:59am

Amanda again you have made the assumption that because I do not quite see things as you do I have questions as to God's ability. No I do not. There is no reason to believe God can't do all things instaneously yet He doesn't.  Why He doesn't if I need to know He will make it known.

And absolutely God will  and does keep His promises.

The foot will always see things a little different than the hand but they must learn to work together. 

Thankyou Amanda for you input.  Oh one last thought you might have tried to use scripture to disprove me  remember the Noah account another small group ! family populating the world. The answers are all in God's word not mans interpretation.

Permalink Reply by Amanda on November 7, 2011 at 5:41am

Dean, I used plenty of Scriptures as did all the articles I posted. We  will just have to agree to disagree. I have not assumed anything about you. Nor did I say God does all things instantly. I just believe in the 6 literal days of Creation as being 24 hour periods of time according to an evening and a morning as we have now, and has been since the beginning. I undertsand why you believe as you do. I have looked at your POV and still disagree.

The answers are all in God's word not mans interpretation.

I have used God's word. Dean, you might have tried to use Scripture to disprove me but... You are so right about man's interpretation.

I certainly do remember Noah.

Moving on...

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