All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
Is sin genetic?
Dear brothers, sisters and friends,
please would you share your thoughts/beliefs regarding this question?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Bible-Talk on
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Thanks David -
I have difficulty in believing/accepting that human kind is condemned at birth, albeit spiritually. What did Jesus means about becoming like little children to enter the kingdom of heaven (Matthew 18:2-5)? Was'nt he referring to their spiritual condition/status (ie sinless)?
And in what way(s) are we made in Gods own image if EVERY aspect of our human make-up is corrupted by sin?
I believe we are not born in sin and condemned at birth, but we do have a sinful nature (as well) that is genetic .... although sin itself cannot be genetic since it is an ACT {of breaking Gods law(s) 1John3:4:
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Permalink Reply by dean burrows on
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I second this thanks. I know I keep going back to Genesis but do believe The Father didn't curse man He cursed the ground because of man's actions. I believe that is quite a bit different than being born a sinner.
The little children came onto Christ with full trust, total acceptance. Unfortunately as we acquire knowledge we begin to question to be less receptive and in our actions we seperate ourselves from The Father. A thought about what actual sin is. Why did God ask where Adam was? All the rest if Adam had asked was forgivable.
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We have in us the nature and the potential. What we do is our free choice.
People who don't choose Christ, by default, Condemn themselves - however the consequences don't happen until judgement. I don't believe, for example, that Haiti was judged for some pact made with the devil over a century ago... the day of judgement hasn't arrived. What I do read is earthquakes and floods are a precursor to the end times.
I think what Jesus meant by becoming as these little children was that one has to be born again by water and the spirit and assume the attitude of innocence.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Check this article out and tell me what you think of it bro.
Grace and peace to you beloved in Christ.
John Piper & Bethlehem Baptist Church Staff
1998 | MINNEAPOLIS, MN--
When we speak of man's depravity we mean man's natural condition apart from any grace exerted by God to restrain or transform man.
There is no doubt that man could perform more evil acts toward his fellow man than he does. But if he is restrained from performing more evil acts by motives that are not owing to his glad submission to God, then even his "virtue" is evil in the sight of God.
Romans 14:23 says, "Whatever does not proceed from faith is sin." This is a radical indictment of all natural "virtue" that does not flow from a heart humbly relying on God's grace.
The terrible condition of man's heart will never be recognized by people who assess it only in relation to other men. Romans 14:23 makes plain that depravity is our condition in relation to God primarily, and only secondarily in relation to man. Unless we start here we will never grasp the totality of our natural depravity.
Man's depravity is total in at least four senses.
(1) Our rebellion against God is total. Apart from the grace of God there is no delight in the holiness of God, and there is no glad submission to the sovereign authority of God.
Of course totally depraved men can be very religious and very philanthropic. They can pray and give alms and fast, as Jesus said (Matthew 6:1-18). But their very religion is rebellion against the rights of their Creator, if it does not come from a childlike heart of trust in the free grace of God. Religion is one of the chief ways that man conceals his unwillingness to forsake self-reliance and bank all his hopes on the unmerited mercy of God (Luke 18:9-14; Colossians 2:20-23).
The totality of our rebellion is seen in Romans 3:9-10 and 18. "I have already charged that all men, both Jews and Greeks, are under the power of sin, as it is written: None is righteous, no not one; no one seeks for God....There is no fear of God before their eyes."
It is a myth that man in his natural state is genuinely seeking God. Men do seek God. But they do not seek him for who he is. They seek him in a pinch as one who might preserve them from death or enhance their worldly enjoyments. Apart from conversion, no one comes to the light of God.
Some do come to the light. But listen to what John 3:20-21 says about them. "Every one who does evil hates the light, and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. But he who does what is true comes to the light, that it may be clearly seen that his deeds have been wrought in God."
Yes there are those who come to the light -- namely those whose deeds are the work of God. "Wrought in God" means worked by God. Apart from this gracious work of God all men hate the light of God and will not come to him lest their evil be exposed -- this is total rebellion. "No one seeks for God...There is no fear of God before their eyes!"
(2) In his total rebellion everything man does is sin.
In Romans 14:23 Paul says, "Whatever is not from faith is sin." Therefore, if all men are in total rebellion, everything they do is the product of rebellion and cannot be an honor to God, but only part of their sinful rebellion. If a king teaches his subjects how to fight well and then those subjects rebel against their king and use the very skill he taught them to resist him, then even those skills become evil.
Thus man does many things which he can only do because he is created in the image of God and which in the service of God could be praised. But in the service of man's self-justifying rebellion, these very things are sinful.
In Romans 7:18 Paul says, "I know that no good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh." This is a radical confession of the truth that in our rebellion nothing we think or feel is good. It is all part of our rebellion. The fact that Paul qualifies his depravity with the words, "that is, in my flesh," shows that he is willing to affirm the good of anything that the Spirit of God produces in him (Romans 15:18). "Flesh" refers to man in his natural state apart from the work of God's Spirit. So what Paul is saying in Romans 7:18 is that apart from the work of God's Spirit all we think and feel and do is not good.
NOTE: We recognize that the word "good" has a broad range of meanings. We will have to use it in a restricted sense to refer to many actions of fallen people which in relation are in fact not good.
For example we will have to say that it is good that most unbelievers do not kill and that some unbelievers perform acts of benevolence. What we mean when we call such actions good is that they more or less conform to the external pattern of life that God has commanded in Scripture.
However, such outward conformity to the revealed will of God is not righteousness in relation to God. It is not done out of reliance on him or for his glory. He is not trusted for the resources, though he gives them all. Nor is his honor exalted, even though that's his will in all things (1 Corinthians 10:31). Therefore even these "good" acts are part of our rebellion and are not "good" in the sense that really counts in the end -- in relation to God.
(3) Man's inability to submit to God and do good is total.
Picking up on the term "flesh" above (man apart from the grace of God) we find Paul declaring it to be totally enslaved to rebellion. Romans 8:7-8 says, "For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God; it does not submit to God's law, indeed it cannot; and those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
The "mind of the flesh" is the mind of man apart from the indwelling Spirit of God ("You are not in the flesh, you are in the Spirit, if the Spirit of God really dwells in you," Romans 8:9). So natural man has a mindset that does not and cannot submit to God. Man cannot reform himself.
Ephesians 2:1 says that we Christians were all once "dead in trespasses and sins." The point of deadness is that we were incapable of any life with God. Our hearts were like a stone toward God (Ephesians 4:18; Ezekiel 36:26). Our hearts were blind and incapable of seeing the glory of God in Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4-6). We were totally unable to reform ourselves.
(4) Our rebellion is totally deserving of eternal punishment.
Ephesians 2:3 goes on to say that in our deadness we were "children of wrath." That is, we were under God's wrath because of the corruption of our hearts that made us as good as dead before God.
The reality of hell is God's clear indictment of the infiniteness of our guilt. If our corruption were not deserving of an eternal punishment God would be unjust to threaten us with a punishment so severe as eternal torment. But the Scriptures teach that God is just in condemning unbelievers to eternal hell (2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Matthew 5:29f; 10:28; 13:49f; 18:8f; 25:46; Revelation 14:9-11; 20:10). Therefore, to the extent that hell is a total sentence of condemnation, to that extent must we think of ourselves as totally blameworthy apart from the saving grace of God.
In summary, total depravity means that our rebellion against God is total, everything we do in this rebellion is sin, our inability to submit to God or reform ourselves is total, and we are therefore totally deserving of eternal punishment.
It is hard to exaggerate the importance of admitting our condition to be this bad. If we think of ourselves as basically good or even less than totally at odds with God, our grasp of the work of God in redemption will be defective. But if we humble ourselves under this terrible truth of our total depravity, we will be in a position to see and appreciate the glory and wonder of the work of God discussed in the next four points.
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quite a statement and very lengthy to explain why Jesus told us to flee the appearance of evil The Father judges by the heart. It gets right back to the heart condition. And in to many cases man's heart condition is governed by the reward man himself will reap. That is where I believe it gets difficult for man as the world constantly drives home the idea we should do nothing without personal gain. Imagine a world in which man reched out to their brothers and sisters with no expectation of return. We could say goodbye poverty, goodbye hunger,etc. etc. and give all glory to The Father. As it should be! Praise The Lord.
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Dean,
The question at hand is not about day to day living that includes good choices or bad choices, but the condition of a person's heart. We are born into the sinful nature and into a fallen world separated from God. Our hearts and minds are far from God while still in sin apart from God. We are not good and then become bad. We begin lost, dead to God, and in desparate need of a Savior. Man has no merit to stand before Father God except for the blood of Jesus that purchased our pardon and redeemed us. We move from death to life through the regenerating work of the Holy Spirit.
Regarding poverty, Jesus said "the poor you will always have with you." Your view appears to be a postmillennial view, but the Bible describes the world getting worse prior to the coming of the King, not better.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Oh no arguement here. You are right Jesus did say we will always have the poor and why well simple man's rebellious nature. You see I believe God has given us an awesome ability to choose His truth or the ways of the world. And as Jesus points out what does man choose , "the poor you will always have with you"
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Nowhere does Jesus say that this is because man chose it and that if he didn't choose this he could choose to irradicate poverty. It was a simple statement of fact by Jesus.
Lord Bless,
LT
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I would say that our day to day choices set up a pattern, a program, maybe a state of the heart.
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I would suggest that it is the other way around. Our heart affects our day to day choices.
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Out of the overflow of the heart the mouth speaks.
The good from the good they have built up inside of them, etc. So apparently we build up in our hearts with the choices we make.
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Only from a good heart that has been changed by God can good flow, for it is determined by the type of tree (person) as to whether they can bring forth good fruit or bad. The heart of natural man is wicked. The heart of the regenerated has been changed and now is capable of bringing forth good fruit.
It is not simply a matter of choice on th epart of man, but first requires the work of God.
Read Romans 8
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