Infant baptism

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 27, 2011 at 2:30pm

Yes Scribe, I agree with you, I've diverted from the topic, but it was not  my intention.  My appologies.

Yael

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 28, 2011 at 9:27am

Yael, please do not receive it as correction. It's a suggestion. I think the topic bears discussion which we could do more readily if we can focus on this new topic in it's own right.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 27, 2011 at 12:14am

Brother Richard, I think that Scripture is abundantly clear that you are correct in your statement:

"...once a person passes from this life his/her eternity is set..."

 

We all grieve for those who have made the wrong choices in this life. But, it is clear that God is giving thousands of second chances before we pass from this life and not one more after we pass. It's sobering, really. 

Permalink Reply by Larry M. on July 25, 2011 at 4:27am

BIBLE really needs understanding, to know and to be wise and that comes from God alone. We ask for it not an automatic add on.

Consciousness, ability to choose and to accept is really essentials in water baptism coz it's the first step to obedience with reverence not out of fear, a requirements, a traditions or  a rituals. Significantly voluntary because the candidates to baptism is obedient.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 26, 2011 at 9:33pm

Larry M.

 

I totally agree with your thoughts.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 27, 2011 at 10:01pm

Sister Amanda,

 

We've kinda evolved in our discussion which Bradley initiated last April. Well, I guess it's all related one way or another to baptism.

Your questions are deep with many ideas of interpretation involved in the answers.

I have my own answers and thoughts (and unanswered questions) regarding the whole matter. But, remember, these are just my opinions, and to be sure, many others can weigh in with their beliefs. And that's o.k..

 

Let's start with a biggie: John 20:17," Jesus said to her," Stop clinging to Me, for I have not yet ascended to  the Father; but go to My brethren, and say to them, I ascend to My Father and your Father, and My God and your God."

This is Sunday morning. Jesus told the criminal on the cross, "Today you shall be with Me in paradise."

And remember, Amanda, that was on Friday. So, on Sunday Jesus had not yet ascended to Heaven.

 

I think Jesus took the criminal"s spirit DOWN (yes down, at that time) to Abraham's Bosom (Paradise) with Him. Compare Luke 16; 19-31. At that time, Jesus preached to the godly "captives" who had been waiting

for His arrival (II Peter 4:6).

 

Later, Jesus led the captives, captive, (Ephesians, Chapter 4, which corresponds with Isaiah 61:1, and Luke 4:18) up to the third heaven, where I think it is, to this day. which I think is part of God's abode.

 

Basically, there are three levels of heaven - first level where birds and airplanes fly. second level, outer space,

where spacecraft and satellites cruse, along with spiritual warfare (Daniel,Chapter 9). And then, the third heaven,  Paul's out of body experience in II Corinthians 12: 1-4.

I think it's possible Paradise is just below Heaven, Heaven,(God's abode) all part of the third level.

 

Yes, I know, the terms of heaven and paradise have been used in a synonymous manner over the years. Actually, the word paradise basically means "park", both in the Greek and Hebrew.

 

 

Finally, we know that God's Bible has  exceptions to "the rule". ie,  Enoch and Elijah never died, the criminal on the cross - not baptized to name a couple.

 

I'd be interested in hearing anybody else's thoughts on this matter..................

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 28, 2011 at 9:22am

While Jesus was in his mortal body, on earth, He accepted the limitations of mortality. God is not limited in this way, however - He is not locationally challenged.

Permalink Reply by Yael Levi-Bénédict on July 29, 2011 at 12:34pm

Amanda,

 

Didn't the Apostle's creed say something that He descended into Hell and on the third he ascebded from the dead?

 

Also, how about these passages?

Ephesians 4:9-10

⁹( In saying, "He ascended," what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?^{[a] 10}He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)

 

Acts 2:31

³¹he foresaw and spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to Hades, nor did his flesh see corruption.

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 28, 2011 at 8:40am

Amanda,

My rule is based upon the Word's account in Mark 16:16, " He who has believed and has been baptized shall be saved............".

 

The Ark of the Covenant was put together on earth, and the Israelites had it in and out of their possession for years, right?

Where is the Ark now?

In Heaven, where John saw it in Revelation 11:19, "And the Temple of God which is in Heaven was opened; and the ark of His covenant appeared in His Temple, and there were flashes of lightning...............".

 

My point - Just because something was here on earth doesn't mean it can't be in Heaven.......... (the tree).......

Remember, all things are possible with God.

 

Sister Amanda, I don't think God expects us to have all the answers. That's where faith comes in.

Please don't be too hard on yourself.

Oh, and that's an interesting thought on Eden.........

 

Grace and Peace. 

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on July 28, 2011 at 10:22am

Brother Scribe,

 

I like the term - "locationally challenged".

Very good.

 

Grace and Peace.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 28, 2011 at 9:44pm

:-) thanks. I think that we get spun around the axle when we forget that God is not limited the way we tend to think. Your point about the Ark of the Covenant is an excellent one.

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 28, 2011 at 10:18pm

LOL, I'm not saying you were accusing God of being locationally challenged. I'm saying that God is not limited, as we think of physicality in our world of 4 dimensions. God is "in heaven", yes. But scripture also says he fills the whole of creation. And, as Richard pointed out, there are also multiple "heavens" and "heavenly places".

 

And I'm not trying to make anyone feel stupid. LOL.

 

This is an issue that people wrestle with. But, I think it's because we live in a finite and limited realm and it's very hard to understand that God does not.

 

For instance: we think of our Resurrected existence as a "future time". But God's realm is eternal and our Resurrected bodies will not experience limitation of time and space as we do here. So, in a sense, we are there now watching ourselves here. And in fact God speaks about us in ways that demonstrate this concept.

 

Check this out: "And God raised us up with Christ and seated us with him in the heavenly realms in Christ Jesus, ⁷ in order that in the coming ages he might show the incomparable riches of his grace, expressed in his kindness to us in Christ Jesus." [Ephesians 2:6-7]. Notice that it is past tense about a future reality we have not experienced yet in a practical sense.

 

So, where was Jesus when he was not in his body? Everywhere. Was He in Heaven with the Father? Yes. Did he go to Paradise? Yes. Did he lead a parade of captives out of paradise and spoil the devil's hold on the dead? Yes. Did he "preach to souls in hell"? Yes. When his body ceased to be the vessel holding his spirit, he was no longer limited by anything. He committed His Spirit into the Father's hands right then and right there. But he was not only "then and there" at that moment any longer.

 

We have to realize that God is not limited by any dimensions or restraints.

 

And I'm sorry if I made you feel stupid, that's not my intention for anyone.

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