Submission

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 15, 2011 at 6:25pm

Hi Choco,

 

I will take a shot at answering this since no one else seems to want to touch your topic with a ten foot pole. ….I will probably live to regret it...Anyhow; this is how I interpret this issue of submission by a wife to her husband. The first question we need to determine is this. Do most women, saved or otherwise, want weak men for husbands, boyfriends, or whatever. The answer is clearly no, and the proof is self evident. A single woman seeking a mate doesn't use makeup because she is a failed artist who still enjoys coloring and painting but can't afford paper. No, she does it to attract something. She wishes first to be noticed and then to be approached. We hope that she is attracting the right element, but in her mind she will apply her makeup according to the element she wishes to attract. If she wanted a weak man then why even wear any makeup? She could just pick out a weak man and say, "I'm taking you out on a date tonight" And the passive or weak man would happily agree and say, ok. -------- Now that we have established that 'fact' of life, let’s ask ourselves this very simple question. ---- How can a marriage work if both people are playing the same role? It can't. If any woman’s heart’s desire is to be the dominant mate then that’s fine, but she obviously can't marry a dominant man. ---- So that pretty much narrows down our single womans choice of a mate to Stanley Peabody, that “sweet” guy at the Library who secretly likes you, but he can’t look you in the eye when he talks to you. Sure, Stanley Peabody is nice and all, but you’re not ever going to date the guy are you? To put it simply, no relationship that involves sex (and marriage is one of these) will work unless somebody is dominant and somebody is submissive. Think about it…. In the animal kingdom it’s the same way. Why are their dominant and submissive roles in the nature of things that God designed? We don’t know why…It is just the way God decided to set it up....

 

As for males that abuse? They should serve long sentences in prison swinging a sledge hammer and turning big rocks into little rocks. --

 

-------The bible clearly states that a husband is to treat his wife like Christ treats the church.-------  

Many Blessings to you and yours.

 

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 18, 2011 at 3:01am

Hi Choco,

 
Thank you for starting this topic. I was starting to wonder if you had abandoned me here after I stuck my neck out to respond to a subject that my better judgment told me not to.... Lol.

As for this topic being relevant to today? We all seem to have differing views on submssion. As a whole it is only relevant in the world that God intended for us after we sinned. He did not intend for the husband and wife to both be trying to hold down full time jobs. His plan was a simple one. He instructed Adam to work outside the home as provider and protector, and for Eve to run the household and to raise the children. That is my take on it anyhow. Why did God set it up like this? Why do roles exist in marriage? Who really knows but God.

Many Blessings.

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 16, 2011 at 11:21pm

Hi Amanda,


Now this is only my opinion upon observation over time and I don't have any data or studies to back it up. What I believe has gone wrong with marriage is this. Not only are the roles confused but it goes deeper than that.----- Men have affairs because they don't feel "needed", "valued", or "important". Women on the other hand have affairs because they don't feel "wanted", "special", or "desired". The reason that marriage doesn't seem to work for most people today is not just the fault of men or women not knowing their roles in the marriage. It’s the fault of a society that has brainwashed its citizens into believing that attaining wealth and possessions will bring you happiness and contentment. Society has told us that our real "value" as people is attached to the labels on our clothing, the kind of car we drive, or what kind of job/career we have. --------Marriage will only work if you have two people who know their roles and are willing to love the other person more than they love themselves. Marriage is the art of unselfishness.------- If both parties don't feel that way then forget it, the marriage won't work. ------In today’s society we are told to love ourselves and "you deserve" this vacation or "you owe it to yourself" to buy a new car, and as a result people now believe they are more important than anyone else.


Many blessings always.

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 17, 2011 at 12:49am

As a footnote. Christian marriages have the same percentage of failure as a non-Christian marriage. This is something I found shocking. So Amanda, you are correct in your assessment that "it's a lot of work even for believers" who are supposed to be putting God first in the marriage, but that goes without saying. Statistically what is obvious is that Christians (men and women both) who are putting God first, are still putting themselves second. And in my opinion, that is a problem.

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 17, 2011 at 2:08pm

Hi Amanda,

 

I agree with you wholeheartedly on everything you have written. I was speaking of marriage and sex separately and in general terms and not necessarily just Christian marriage, although I did include it as a reference to the divorce rate. I should have been more specific in my language.... Also when I talk about submission as it applies to a Godly marriage, I am speaking in Godly terms since men must submit themselves to God first or they will not truly understand that "submission" in Godly terms really means "to love and to trust". As to a Godly "dominant" role what I am referring to is that a man should take the "lead" in the marriage as protector and provider. He gave Adam instructions on this himself when he told Adam his role was to toil the earth. God designed it this way because God knew it was unrealistic for Eve to raise children and then go out and farm all day. That is too much to ask from anyone. Godly submission does not mean the wife listens to the husband because he is the man. Nobody in their right mind is going to listen to someone who is leading the family towards destruction. God never said anywhere in the Bible that a woman should suffer a fool for a husband by obeying a fool. In my opinion she should not have married a fool to begin with. As for the sexual aspect of relationships that involve sex in general, whether they be worldly (which is ungodly), homosexual (which is ungodly), or marriage which is Godly, behind closed doors there is going to be dominant and submissive roles. That is just a proven fact of life. What we are in essence talking about here are two types of submissiveness and two types of dominance, Godly and sexual. Perhaps I should have drawn a clearer parallel to each of them individually. In the grand scheme of things, people should, if they can control themselves take Paul’s advice and not marry at all. Marriage is next to impossible if both parties are just getting married because they think that it sounds like fun. It can be fun, but it will not work if one or both parties are self centered or don't understand the significance of marriage. For a marriage to work (day to day) the woman absolutely must be made to feel “special” and “wanted” by her husband, and the husband needs to be made to feel his role is "important", or it won't work. I don't know your marital status, but my advice to you if you are single, is to stay single and live for God. Let Jesus be your passion. It is going to be very tough to find someone as well fitted for you as Christ. My goal is to live for him and he to live in me…. Nobody will ever be able to love you as deeply and passionately as Jesus loves you dear sister.

God Bless.

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 17, 2011 at 3:32pm

Well then please accept my apology if I offended you in any way, as I was only trying to engage in the conversation to the best of my ability.

 

Many Blessings to you and yours!

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 18, 2011 at 1:45am

Hi Wicus,

I think I will have to disagree with you on several points. As for the husband being King, I think that Jesus would fit that role better. Jesus is King of kings and Lord of lords. As for looking out for the household, Proverbs gives the role “to look out for the household” to the wife. That part really hasn’t ever changed. The husband protects and helps provide for it, or is the main provider for it. He has an important role in it.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------
Proverbs:
She is like the merchant ships,
bringing her food from afar.
She gets up while it is still dark;
she provides food for her family
and portions for her servant girls.
6 She considers a field and buys it;
out of her earnings she plants a vineyard.
She sets about her work vigorously;
her arms are strong for her tasks.
She sees that her trading is profitable,
and her lamp does not go out at night.
In her hand she holds the distaff
and grasps the spindle with her fingers.
She opens her arms to the poor
and extends her hands to the needy.
When it snows, she has no fear for her household;
for all of them are clothed in scarlet.
She makes coverings for her bed;
she is clothed in fine linen and purple.
Her husband is respected at the city gate,
where he takes his seat among the elders of the land.
She makes linen garments and sells them,
and supplies the merchants with sashes.
She is clothed with strength and dignity;
she can laugh at the days to come.
She speaks with wisdom,
and faithful instruction is on her tongue.
She watches over the affairs of her household

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As for the husband/prophet “bringing the family to God.” The husband and the wife are both required to set an example for the children and each should already be saved to my way of thinking. I think the husband can “lead” his wife to Christ is she is not saved, or vice versa. And then I would agree with that.
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As for the husband being some form of Priest, I would say the Catholic Church would probably disagree with you on that one. I have never seen that mentioned in the Bible. Maybe it’s in there though I haven’t seen it. Please note: These are my opinions on the matter and I would like to hear your response.

Many Blessings and thanks for having the intestinal fortitude to respond to this difficult subject. Be prepared for possible rebukes. Lol

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 18, 2011 at 5:36am

I learned to submit to my husband and he in turn, realized when I had something valuable to add. We had a very peaceful *second marriage*...much better than the first time around. My husband has gone on now and I sure do miss him but whenever I come up against a problem, I think about how he would handle it and can work my way through it. Most times it is on what he taught me during our time together.

Submission isn't a bad thing. People can come up with some wild ideas about it, though.  Trust in the Lord...if He tells you to submit to your husband...that is what pleases Him. He will care for you during submission because He directed you to do it in the first place.

 

Following God's Word never fails!

Blessings,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on July 18, 2011 at 9:05am

No doubt about it submission is a confusing subject, but I will share some things about it that I have learned though study and experience through the years. For my first point, I'm posting under Rita, because she says what I've heard other ladies say. Their first marriage was not good. In the meantime, they got smarter and more careful about the men they married. They all said that that's all it took to have a blessed 2nd marriage. It was the difference in the marriage partner. They all said there were no more arguments or serious problems, because they married someone who loved the Lord like them and who was godly and fair.  No more problems communicating, smooth sailing.

 

For my 2nd point, I strongly, strongly believe that most women are married to the wrong man. What? How can that be? Because they do not know how to use spiritual discernment when they marry and fall for the wrong person. To understand this subject there is an excellent book called "I kissed Dating Goodbye" by Josh Harris which is well known in Christian circles. I tell ppl about it all the time, especially ppl who are dating the worldly way or are engaged to get married, even married women who are in bad marriages. Because the truth will set you free and I believe Josh Harris has a revelation on the correct way to go into marriage. Actually God gave me this revelation before I ever read Josh's book- he just confirmed to me what He showed me through the Holy Spirt already.

 

Think about this, have you ever noticed how when a couple is dating or has decided they are going to get married, everyone encourages them to go right ahead, even says congratulations without knowing if they are right for each other or not? Well not me, because I have seen how destructive relationships not made in Heaven are. I will always try to counsel the ladies by saying "how do you know this man is the right person for you"? To that they almost always reply without exception, "well because he's different then anyone I have ever met or he's so nice to me or so funny, so cute or I just know". Not a single one ever says, because I sought the Lord and so did he and we know we are God's choice for each other. I think there is a rremendous deficit in the Chruch when it comes to correct teaching on what marriage is and how to know if one is in God's will for ones life partner.

 

So then what is a wife to do when she wakes up one day, probably soon after the ceremony and realizes he is not the person she thought he was? Well, that's where it comes to learning how to listen to the Holy Spirit. because once one enters into a wrong marriage like this, very few such marriages survive. A wife can submit 7 ways to Sunday, but a husband who has no room for God in his heart will not change and the marriage will never go anywhere except to divorce court. Either that or they remain married but live in a state of living death. Once one has married outside the will of God ones only recourse is to learn to listen to the HS. The sad truth is some survive the ordeal and the marriage is healed, but most don't. One can still find peace with God either though singleness or remarriage to the right person next time.

 

Thridly in reading my share of books and stuyding the Bible on submission/marriage, the conclusion I came to is submission is taught so wrong in pulpits that most get the idea that it is a dictatorship with the husband  as the dictator. but the Bible says that a couple should be mutually submissive to each other. Most skip over that part. If a husband is good to his wife she is more than glad to fit in with his plans/choices, In no way do I believe a wife is mandated to submit to ungodliness on the part of a huband saved or unsaved. This explains why 2nd marriages often work whereas the first one didin't if the woman makes sure she has a godly man the 2nd time around.

 

Now this brings me to my last point which will support the rest. In my years of knowing the Lord, I have heard hundreds of Christian testimonies. They are always thrilling in their own way. But my #1 top favorite testimony was a very simple one by a very unique husband, He said that at first he had tried to rule his wife with and iron fist and the Lord showed him how ungodly that was, that what he was to do was to lay his life down to serve his wife??? So when this clicked in his head he started thinking of all the ways he could serve his wife. In fact, he realized that if his wife ever did more for him then he did for her that he would be a failure as a husband in the Lord's eyes. So, he competed with himself to always do more for her then she did for him and to continually discover new ways that he could serve her.  He said that his list of servig her had to be longer then her list of serving him and as a result his marriage became so wonderful that he couldn't wait to get up in the morning so he could think of even more ways to show love to his wife- not what most men say right lol? And he said when he put this into action, he became the most blessed husband in the world, because his wife and children admired and respected him so much that they wanted to do all they could to honor him too.

 

Moral of the story.... submit to God through Christ and He will order our steps and help us survive wrong choices from when we did not know better.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 19, 2011 at 5:36am

Actually, Jane, I was saying I was married to the same man twice. Both of us grew up in the intervening time we were apart.

My husband didn't necessarily appreciate my submissiveness at first, but he grew into it. At the same time he loved and protected me and held me in high esteem. With this attitude on each partner's part, there were few arguments to deal with. Imagine a marriage with few arguments. Nearly unheard of, but...all women can have peace in their households if they practice submissiveness.

Blessings,

Rita

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Permalink Reply by Jane Smith on July 19, 2011 at 6:14am

Well let's say you were married to a new man the 2nd time around, Rita.  If you submitted the right way and not the doormat way that so many see as submission, then you are one of the rare few who got to have a healed marriage. I would not say that "all women can have peace in their households if they practice submissiveness". Why? Because not every husband will choose the Lord, in fact, most will not. And no Christian wife can be happy married to an unbeliever or luke warm, compromising Christian husband. There is a true submissiveness where the wife treats her husband with honor and respect and speaks the truth in love to him when he bullies her, acts ungodly or tries to get her not to obey the Lord.  And then there is the other type of submission that I call false submission where they get along because the wife never questions a single thing her husband does and just goes along with whatever he wants. I'll call that doormat submission. I hope you had the true type of submission, because then you can say your marriage truly was healed and that you and your husband were truly used of God to further His Kingdom as a married couple which is what I believe the main purpose of marriage is.

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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on July 20, 2011 at 4:53am

Being in submission, to me, allows the husband to have the position that God wanted him to have, head of the family. No partnership will survive with the partners having different goals. God didn't create women to have a superior position in the family but to follow the lead of the husband. In an ideal marriage that husband would be in love with God and lead his family in righteousness.

We all don't have ideal marriages, but...we can make it as ideal as possible if we practice the direction of being submissive to the husband. Two people can't get along if they are constantly vying for the dominant position in a relationship.

If a woman has a husband who takes advantage of her submissiveness, she married the wrong man. But then, God also says not to be unequally yoked.

All of God's directions to us work together, if we are following them. If we don't, what does that say about our relationship with God?

One of God directions is to be humble. Another, meek. God didn't give these direction and then tell us to pick one to follow. He gave them all to us to follow. They all will lead to a better earthy life and will prepare us for a heavenly one. It's best to follow all of them.

 

Blessings,

Rita

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