Is there a problem with the "church"?

Comment

Comment by Craig Portwood on February 1, 2010 at 6:33pm

Hi Leonard,

I meant to reply sooner but it has been a busy day.

You said:

One of the churches my wife and I attended was so entertainment oriented that we went looking for the box office to pay for our tickets after the event.

I am have trouble reading that without falling onto to the floor in laughter! I wish I had been able to put it that way. LOL

You also said:
We do not restrict people from smoking outside the building or look down on them if they do.
So many times, I have seen people leaving their "church service" looking over their shoulder while they grab the pack to "feed puff." I have heard believers criticize smokers using 1st Corinthians 6:19 (What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost which is in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own?) as they eat things with many unpronounceable chemical additives. Yes, it doesn't take a rocket scientist to know that tobacco is not healthy, but hypocrisy is more dangerous to the soul than smoking. I am glad to know that that kind of hypocrisy is not your forte. It is not what enters the mouth that defiles a man, "But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man"


Lastly, you listened to all 90 minutes? You must have the patience of a dozen saints.

Seriously, if I were a paranoid individual, I would suspect that you and Glenda were conspiring to lead me reason. There is an old saying: You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him think.

Since I am not paranoid, I will assume that God is showing me that there IS intelligent life in the church. It sound like you both did much searching to find it. I still fear that Revelation 18 speaks of coming out of the church. I see the signs of apostasy everywhere. From what you have both posted, I can believe that there are still some thinking, faithful believers yet left in the church.

I suppose I shall order a dish of crow. I will eat try to it slowly, savoring every bite.

We shall see which of all the many seeds being sown here will bear fruit.

Thanks for bearing your witness.

Comment by Leonard T on January 31, 2010 at 7:07pm

Craig,

Whether you believe it or not we agree on many things regarding the church institution (Hence forth when I refer to the church I am referring to the institution). There is no question that atrocities and personal harm have been done under the banner of the church. Many others are just off the mark. I took a year off and visited a different church each week and only found one I would have attended with regularity. There are numerous reasons why the others were not suitable. One of the churches my wife and I attended was so entertainment oriented that we went looking for the box office to pay for our tickets after the event.

The place where you and I differ is that you have blanketed the church realm and in thus doing so are judging Christ centered churches by lumping them in to churches that are falling away. These churches are out there, but are certainly not the majority.

You mentioned some specific things regarding the church. I would like to express what we do at our church. Of course I believe that we are Christ centered and focused on Him while standing on the Word of God. Leadership is a position of service not lordship. It is my responsibility to make sure people are focused on Jesus and not me. We meet in a rented community center and set up and tear down each week as a group. We have a Bible study first thing in the morning that is an open discussion time. We have teachers who are there to facilitate not dictate. We serve refreshments in our sanctuary. We do have an order of service, but have many times been led to change it and go with something very different. If a person has a need, we stop and seek to meet their need. Sometimes this is praying and anointing and other times it is physical help. The message is presented and is open to questions while being presented. I teach them to verify what I say. Do not take it at face value and if I am in error come and discuss it with me. I teach that they need to know why they believe something, not simply state they believe this or that. Do not be someone’s parrot. We do not have the freedom to go all day because of the rental limitations, but we are not time conscious. We have cell groups that are open format. In these people develop deeper relationships with each other, and broaden their understanding of God’s Word. We do not restrict people from smoking outside the building or look down on them if they do. I am concerned for their health, but will not judge them. We do not require any particular attire. We are held accountable to Jesus first and then one another. We do not have performers and I teach that our focus in singing is Jesus. We are singing unto Him, not the person next to you. Our group is heavily involved in supporting overseas missions because we recognize that lost people matter to Jesus. Do we do some traditional stuff? That depends on what one calls traditional and whether it is Biblical. We pray for one another and give praises each week in our gathering. We sing songs to Jesus and receive offerings for the support of His work. We celebrate communion monthly. Our group has become international with people from eight different nations currently involved. Our group desires to cross the cultural, economic and social barriers to reach people.

Do we do everything perfect? Of course not. Our goal is to do everything with Jesus at the center of our focus. My point is that there are a variety of churches out there. Some pretty decent and others so far off the mark that they cannot really be called churches. I would like to note that the place where the church meets is not important. I have been involved in house church ministry and understand the dynamics of that. The key is that the body of believers come together to worship, encourage, edify and build one another up. I do not share this seeking a pat on the back or approval. My point is that there are churches that truly seek Jesus and seek to submit to Him.

I return to my opening statement. We agree on many things and differ on some others. I still see the good in the church even though many have brought disgrace upon it. The good ones will prevail and the bad ones, well……

BTW, I did listen to part II of your broadcast that was 1:30 long. I found it interesting.

Lord Bess,
LT
(Leonard Traina)

Comment by Craig Portwood on January 31, 2010 at 5:51pm

Glenda,

I didn’t mean to give the impression that I believe in “loopholes.” What I meant to illustrate is that too often, church goers accept uncritically whatever a church authority presents to them. The example of Galileo is a case in point. Faced with either holding to the truth he had discovered about the solar system or recanting to avoid excommunication, he chose the latter.

Likewise, to hold to the idea that the earth was round could similarly result in banishment from fellowship. None at that time considered the apparent anomaly of Christ’s prophecy in Luke 17:33-36. I tell you, in that night there shall be two men in one bed; the one shall be taken, and the other shall be left. Two women shall be grinding together; the one shall be taken, and the other left. Two men shall be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

Now what he said would make no sense if the world were flat. Of course, he knew the Earth was round as he was the means by which it was created. That people were in bed asleep on one side of the Earth in the night while on the other side there were people working in the fields and at the mills in the day could be discerned, yet the authorities of the church leadership would have branded one as a heretic for having agreed with Christ on this issue. They would not have admitted that to disagree with them on this point would be to disagree with Christ.

You are right in observing that greater determination in seeking out the truth of the Word is the requirement.

I disagree with your assessment that publicly acknowledging the faults of what we have allowed to pass in the name of Christ is not beneficial. I believe that we must strive to avoid the “business as usual” attitude that makes us look foolish to the unbelieving world. To most, we seem to be sweeping unpleasant facts under the rug in so doing. If that is not what you meant to present, I do apologize for my misunderstanding.

I imagine my perspective might strike some as disgruntlement, but I realize that unless and until we are able repent of such things before the unbelieving, we will continue to appear to hypocrites, not holding to our own teachings.

I do agree with much you have said and disagree with some of what you have said. I know that Christ will lead us in his time to understand all, if we are willing to read his Word and search the matters out. It does take time, effort, prayer and sometimes fasting.

I do thank you for offering intelligent discourse. A bit of fresh air is always nice. : )

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

Craig

Comment by Ginnybee on January 31, 2010 at 3:37pm

Ok..I read the article. The developing idea seems to inject that christians should become more open to various concepts relative to the possible loop-holes distinguished in the bible. For a believer, however, there are no loop-holes, and it would be wrong to imagine there are. There is truth and there is un-truth, period. With that said, are there areas of vagueness? Yes, there are, but that doesn't mean the truth is any less precise. Rather, it implies only that whatever was left indistinct is probably less significant for us to recognize by way of The Word. Yet, can some of the answers correlated with those vague areas become discovered through much study of God's Word? I believe so. The answers we seek are all there, but some of them require a greater determination by the seeker to find them.

Should we devote our faith to a church leader? No. He/she is just as imperfectly human as the rest of us; however, that is not to say we shouldn't respect his/her position of biblical hierarchy. Jesus, His-self, made clear the importance of appointing positions of leadership.

The gospel message is not a feel-good-for-all type of message. It's an instruction manual meant to inspire a righteous order amoungst a disorderly society. Order and management should be the goals to which we aspire according to the entire bible message. Humans often corrupt the order of righteousness because, well, we are human, but that doesn't discredit the entirety of the message, its self.

While holding to what I've just translated, I will say that I can understand your frustration. I also do not currently belong to any particular church due to a societal discontent. However, I believe this is a personal issue I need to work on and overcome instead of casting full blame on the whole of the church. I don't think that publicly acknowledging our perceived opposition to church societies is beneficial to our purpose, either, seeing as though there is enough oppostion going 'round in general. We should focus on Jesus's message and desire to attract new members to the faith, not distance them with our individual disgruntlement.

Hope that helps :)
God Bless,
Glenda

Comment by Craig Portwood on January 31, 2010 at 12:14am

Yes. The sad fact is that (IMO) many believers grant the authority to a church leader which is Christ's alone.

I have come to the conclusion that I should not attend a church. The model is that there seems to be someone (a man) who directs everything done. He seems to stand on a platform or a stage and performs rather than guides. There are musical shows, performers and the like.

If I had a church, the first thing I would do is do away with the pews. Find some chairs, couches etc. Secondly, there would be no set time to go. Maybe open the doors at 11:00 am and stay open until 7 or 8 PM. Maybe longer if God's Spirit moves us to stay.

Come by if you feel like it and if not, nobody will tell you how disappointed they were that you didn't show last week.

I would have a smoking area out back (gasp) for those who smoke. Coffee and maybe some refreshment inside. We could talk about the things that happened to us the preceding week. To those who are inclined to go to a formal service, the sign out front would say "come by before church services, after church services or instead of church services."

We could discuss things we thought God's spirit moved us to ponder, ask each other questions and throw ideas around, without the authoritarian stuff. No leader but Christ. Nobody taking charge and trying to force their perceptions upon the others.

IMO, a fellowship should be just that. No service, no ordered worship and no entertainment the way I have seen.

If that were the way it was, I might consider going. As it is now, I believe I do better to keep my relationship with Christ personal. The problem with all the fellowships I have seen is that the people all want a human leader, and there is no shortage of people wanting to take control and no shortage of believers who want it to be so. It seems to be a social club and entertainment center.

What says you to that, Ivo God's Archer?
Ginnybee?
Anybody?

Comment by Craig Portwood on January 30, 2010 at 11:25pm

Perhaps the problem is how it is titled. I will change it.

Thanks for pointing it out.

Comment by Craig Portwood on January 30, 2010 at 10:52pm

Ginnybee,

What I mean to point out is that we as believers are reviled by the unsaved, often justly. Since you did not read the article, you would naturally not know this.

If we are to be effective tools for propagating the Gospel, it would do us well to understand our faults and work to improve upon them. I do see much room for improvement. I do not believe there can be any unless and until we face some serious facts. Most believers seem to not want to rock the boat.

If all we do is congratulate ourselves, we do the cause of Christ a great disservice. We look foolish to the outsiders because of some of the things listed in the article.

I don't mean to be harsh myself, but if you felt strongly enough to ask the question, perhaps you should have read the article. If we are indeed in the Truth, we should not be afraid to read something which might challenge our perceptions.

Well did Christ observe in Luke 16:8, that “…the children of this world are in their generation wiser than the children of light.”

What did he mean by that? I believe that his observation is relevant to believers today. We seem to be afraid to leave our comfort zone. Perhaps we are afraid that our faith is not as strong as we would like to believe?

Comment by Ginnybee on January 30, 2010 at 10:40pm

Please excuse me if I seem barging, for I don't mean to create harsh feelings, but....

What exactly are you promoting here? I did not continue to read because I'm not particularly fond of the topic of this post, myself, but felt strongly to ask this question.

There is nothing wrong with the church as a whole, my friend. Jesus prevails regardless of individuals' inequities. Thank God for it!