Faith based on evidence of an unseen God

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Comment by Hank Roberts on January 19, 2015 at 7:31am

"I want to stress that this is not scripture - but my opinion is that God actually WANTS us to search out the WHY issues of life."

Interesting that you should have independently developed that view. Historically, theologians and scholars believed that God is a god of knowledge and revelation: that He specifically created us with intelligence and curiosity because He wants to communicate with us, reveal Himself to us, and wants us to understand both Him and his creation. 

This is actually the foundation of the Scientific processes, that men believed God wants to reveal Himself; that He does so through His creation; and that by orderly and rigorous study man can learn about our world and our creator.  The reason Public Education exists is that men believed God wants us to understand Him, and that to do so all men should learn to read and write so they can study scripture. 

Throughout scripture God continually reveals Himself to us and directs His people to know Him, to learn His ways, etc.  Unfortunately, far too often we fail to apply sound methodology to our doctrinal and theological thinking.  Fisher Humphreys defines "Theology" as thinking about God.  He says that if it is even possible that there is a God; and if we are going to think seriously about anything at all; then we should think seriously (and carefully) about God.  I concur. 

However, you are certainly correct that often it is necessary to accept what God has revealed to us in the interim, until we fully understand.  I am one of those people who are cursed with having to know.  One of my greatest struggles has been to be willing to just accept something without knowing why or how.  When something comes up I have to keep digging until I understand it; but often I realize I may never really understand some of it.  I hate when that happens. 

But I remember Christ in the garden praying that God would remove the coming events from Him: but He concluded that prayer "Nevertheless, Father, not my will but Thine."   I have a friend who talks about "Nevertheless theology", living a life grounded in seeking God's will but being willing to obey even when we don't understand.  Interesting stuff...

Comment by ScribeD on January 18, 2015 at 10:20pm

Amanda, I have an opinion - and I want to stress that this is not scripture - but my opinion is that God actually WANTS us to search out the WHY issues of life. But, He requires us to trust Him in faith until we learn it. He does not simply answer the question on demand, yet He does reveal clues and guides us to search them out.

Now, that being said, He requires us to trust Him because the WHY is often not revealed until the end of a matter. Maturity comes when we can move forward and let the WHY be revealed as we go.

*Note: Okay, I will give you a text that leads me to think this way.

Proverbs 25:2

"It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honor of kings is to search out a matter."

I know, I'm taking it well outside its context. But, to me God is saying we ought to search things out. To me, the question WHY? is foundational. But, we must not whine about it. We must diligently search it out and faithfully trust the Lord until it is discovered.

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 18, 2015 at 12:39pm

I tend to fall back to the question my professors used to ask: what do you know to be true, and why do you know it is true.  I tend to think of "critical thinking" in more epistemic terms, as a particular set of disciplines and skills rather than a more subjective philosophical position.  One can certainly misapply those tools and reach wrong conclusions, but if it is seen as a discipline and a specific process then that is less likely.

We do, of course all believe that our position is true.  It always baffles me that anyone would make an accusation that "you always think your view is true".  Really?  and you don't?  You advocate ideas which you do not believe are true?  Why?  ... the question is not whether I believe a position to be true: the question is why.  Do I have proper justification for that belief?  I've had to revise a considerable portion of my theological and doctrinal thinking over the years, on the grounds of challenges to justify those views. 

And of course you are correct that reaching an erroneous conclusion is not to be equated with being stupid.  Ideas are stupid or silly; actions are stupid or silly; people are neither.  People are, however, for the most part, inexperienced at thinking carefully and clearly about things. 

We come to knowledge by means of any of four methods: Reason, Revelation, Experience or Intuition.  We can apply the tools of critical thinking to any or all of those sources.  But that requires both knowledge and discipline on our part.  Most of us are not practiced at that.

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 18, 2015 at 7:36am

I think you are correct about the 'bullying attitude'. It is very difficult to distinguish those who do know the truth from those who think they know the truth, but do not.  I've worked in the field of workplace safety for several years and I tell people all the time: there are some very good safety people out there and there are some very bad safety people out there.  And they're not wearing signs...

As an old Marine I have to deal frequently with the distinction between Confidence (assurance of your position and ability) with Arrogance (the presumption that your position/ability makes you superior to others).  Confidence is based on an accurate awareness of your abilities and limitations; Arrogance is based on an inaccurate perception of those things, coupled with the presumption that capability equals superiority. 

I often find people in discussions of religious matters (and scientific ones, for that matter) have confused the two. 

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 17, 2015 at 8:04pm

Way back in another century, when I was going to school, there was a thing called the Priestly Fallacy that addressed the faulty thinking surrounding "priests", ministers.  It had a lot to do with the idea of placing priests on a pedestal, and was often promoted (even inadvertently) by ministers themselves.  It carries over well into the scientific and educational arenas, lending 'priestly' authority to those in positions of knowledge.  We have the tendency to imbue them with special knowledge, to the point of granting them authority they do not actually have. 

I learned to question things I was told as a Marine (though many people think that's odd).  When your life depends on good information you are highly motivated to be sure it is right.  Then I was fortunate upon my return to college to get some professors who insisted on us knowing why we thought things were true. 

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 17, 2015 at 6:58pm

Well, there are four ways we acquire knowledge: Reason, Revelation, Experience and Intuition.  We've basically been talking about Revelation, accepting something as true on the grounds that we trust the source.  This is the basis of our education system, incidentally: we expect teachers to tell us the truth.  Unfortunately, being uncritical of sources is often a path to wrong information and wrong thinking. 

It is also true that for the most part we've abandoned the idea of teaching our children how to think, and replaced that with teaching them what to think.  Unfortunately we have followed that trend in the Church as well.  But I still recall an old professor saying that we are not responsible for what men do with the truth but we will stand before God and be held accountable that what we told men was the truth. 

Comment by Leonard T on January 17, 2015 at 6:37pm

Most people today do not think critically, are not being taught to think critically and thus few can tell you why they believe something to be true ... this is evident in various areas beyond Christianity, but has found its way into the church to the point where few know the "Why" behind their belief other than this is what so-and-so told me.

I remember being told once that I was wrong on a subject and the reason given was that I was a small church pastor and the person I disagreed with pastor a big church .... (I did not make that up).

Comment by ScribeD on January 17, 2015 at 6:26pm

I love that my post has spawned a whole discussion on Critical Thinking. I think you guys are definitely on to something there. I'm also going to say that there is a spiritual dimension there that should not be ignored. I've noticed that today's theologians are all commenting and sharing one another's opinions. They seem to be doing what the Pharisees and Sadducees did in the 1st Century - build man's opinion upon another man's opinion until a tower of Babel like set of opinions arises. Thus they believe they are all speaking the mind of God, but in truth know nothing at all what God thinks.

Someone sent me an article from a "pre-eminent" theologian and his opinion on modern church thinking. He is quoted for 20 paragraphs and never once quotes a single verse of scripture. At one point he shows disdain for anyone who would quote scripture.

It's maddening! Simply astonishing. Such a man arises who is acclaimed for his so called wisdom, yet knows nothing of the wisdom of God.

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 17, 2015 at 2:37pm

I'm not sure there is any practical difference between not knowing how to think critically and not being willing to think critically.  And level of intelligence certainly isn't an issue: I've found no correlation between level of intelligence and critical thinking. 

Comment by Hank Roberts on January 17, 2015 at 1:21pm

"The reason why they hold that opinion ought to be challenged."  Ah, OK.  While we actually know why most of them hold that opinion (lack of critical thinking skills), I agree that every time we hear that we should challenge it.

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