WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 10:57am

Louis,

You said this:

They are under satan’s control because they are not chosen. Only those that are chosen will be able to come out in due time.

This may be right...and it may not be.. to me it is your personal opinion.

When we truly believe in the realities of hell, and what scripture teaches about it.. I think it is a very dangerous thing for us to say that God puts them there on purpose. But yet, when you say that God chooses people over others, this is what you are saying. I can 'sit well' with the fact that people reject the Lord and therefore choose their own eternity of being there...but I cannot rest peacefully knowing that God may choose some for eternal damnation.. This is a big reason why I will not even entertain the beliefs of calvinism. This that you speak of about God does not line up with His Character. The plea to 'repent and believe' will be well known to the people who are there, and they will know then fully that they have rejected the only means of Salvation, and that they are responsible for it.

so Louis...this brings me to a place where I say to you... 'we can agree to disagree'

Carla

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on November 3, 2010 at 11:05am

Well sister, it's all alright... I am not a Calvinist either, I simply am a Christian. Let us focus on Christ. Frankly speaking, when i saw this topic, I knew it was going to be a very big fight. But Paul addressed this issue before, we should not see ourselves as Pauls' or Apolos' Christ is one and He is the one that gave us salvation. All Christians (true Christians) are one in Him.

Blessings sister.

Louis

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 11:10am

Amen brother.. We are one in Christ.. I personally think that I will avoid this topic, it is not edifying. Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 3, 2010 at 9:35am

Carla,

I may be wrong but I believe that you probably believe that it is up to you to accept or reject Him once He has been made known to Him. I do not believe that you have that power. I don't believe you can reject Him.

Concerning the basis of His choice - I do not have the answer to that one. IMHO it would be ridiculous to think that He does not know the exact number that will be saved. I do believe He chooses but I don't know the basis of His choice. The difference between me and the JW's is that I believe that whoever will may come. I also believe that He wants all men to be saved. However, I know that He has predestined some to be saved. That is what He has said. I just believe what He has said but I can't explain why He does the things the way that He does them. I also believe Jesus is eternal and that He is God. This is what I believe. Calvinists would not endorse all my beliefs so it would be difficult to put me in that camp.

You alluded to the doctrine of limited atonement. As I have mentioned, I leave the door open for anyone that wants to come to Him. I agree with the basis of limited atonement but I think the doctrine is misleading and so I don't subscribe to it. I do believe in predestination, divine election, irresistible grace, total depravity and the preservation of the saints.

I have a question: Jesus is building us a place. Is it possible that He will come up short and not build for enough? I am certain that you believe like me that there is a certain number that will be saved. However, we do have a slight disagreement on how that number will be saved.

Thanks for asking. Praise the Lord.
Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 10:42am

Hi Roy,

Your question: I have a question: Jesus is building us a place. Is it possible that He will come up short and not build for enough? Sure Jesus knows who will respond to Him.. He has forknowledge. Therefore, He knows how many rooms to build. He also knows my favourite colour probably better than i do. :-)

You also said: I may be wrong but I believe that you probably believe that it is up to you to accept or reject Him once He has been made known to Him I appreciate what you are saying here Roy. I too am baffled at the thought of rejecting the Lord once catching the tiniest glimpse of Him.. However, people can allow their hearts to be hardened. Sin has caused a tremendous problem in this world and it effects all of us.

However, here is an example in scripture of this happening.. Saul in 1 Samuel 19..
1Sa 19:21 When Saul heard what had happened, he sent other troops, but they, too, prophesied! The same thing happened a third time!


1Sa 19:22 Finally, Saul himself went to Ramah and arrived at the great well in Secu. "Where are Samuel and David?" he demanded. "They are at Naioth in Ramah," someone told him.


1Sa 19:23 But on the way to Naioth the Spirit of God came upon Saul, and he, too, began to prophesy!


1Sa 19:24 He tore off his clothes and lay on the ground all day and all night, prophesying in the presence of Samuel. The people who were watching exclaimed, "What? Is Saul a prophet, too?"


After Saul has this encounter with the Lord.. what happens to him? You would think that he changes his ways and decides to give his life over to God...after this dramatic experience... but nope.. that's not what happens. we go ahead to 1 Samuel 21 and chapter 23 and see that Saul continues to pursue David. David responds by sparing Saul's life in chapter 24...and again in chapter 26.
We see that God gave Saul a chance to repent, and Saul refused. God allowed Saul to choose.

How many examples in the NT are of this same 'hardening of the heart'.. How many religious leaders witnessed the miracles of Jesus and knew the prophecies of the Messiah..but refused to listen. They were looking for an immediate conquering King---and they misunderstood. Is it because they were not 'chosen'? Scripture tells us they were chosen...but they refused. They did not want to turn from their religious ways.. God allowed the religious leaders to choose...

God created mankind in His own image, and that included the ability to choose.

Of coarse there are limitations.. for example, we cannot choose to fly...or leap tall buildings in a single bound. :-)

As humans in our sinful state God pleads with us: Repent and Believe!
This is our part in Salvation.. to repent and believe the gospel. God does the rest!

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on November 3, 2010 at 10:58am

The question is "is believing in God by might?" If they are called and they don't believe, it means it is by might we believe in him. If we are called and still have the power to accept or reject, then salvation is not by grace but by might. I do not say my words out of the Bible alone, I am an example of my believe. And i thank God for choosing me. I can't say this is the role I played in my calling, I was simply chosen and given a task that I must carry out. I could not have rejected it because Saul who became Paul did not reject his call. This is what I see in my Bible. We are chosen and logically, we cannot say no because He called us at the right time. Everyone has his/her time of calling, which is why we are still preaching the gospel today. A single God bless you can change a sinner's life. It is the Holy Spirit that chooses and when He choose, we cannot reject because it's our season.

Blessings...

Louis.

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 3, 2010 at 6:54pm

Hey Louis.
Another attempt at addressing your above post :(
Salvation is always by grace,regardless if we believe in a prevenient or irresistible grace.
I'm not sure what you mean by might(this is why I re-write this post),but if by 'might' you mean,of our own strength,then no,I don't believe this is true.If by 'might' you mean that we come to salvation in the hope our belief 'might' be true,then again,no.I don't think this is true.I know this is not my experience.
Regardless of whether we believe in free-will or not,will not make us any more or any less saved,I believe.
Anyway,just my thoughts,which I hope helps your understanding of the 'other' view : )

God Bless.

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 3, 2010 at 7:40pm

Carla,

You have chosen perhaps the greatest example in Scripture of the power of God's grace to save even though the individual just can't get their act straight. Saul disobeyed one time after another. In the end, God finally required his life. However, Saul went to be with God. King Saul is an example of God saving in spite of us not because of us. Do you remember what Samuel said to Saul?

1 Sa 28:18-19
18 Because you did not obey the Lord or carry out his fierce wrath against the Amalekites, the Lord has done this to you today. 19 The Lord will hand over both Israel and you to the Philistines, and tomorrow you and your sons will be with me. The Lord will also hand over the army of Israel to the Philistines." NIV

In spite of his rebellion, no question where he ended up. I don't believe God will give a man a new heart as he did Saul and then send him to hell.

1 Sa 10:9-11

9 As Saul turned to leave Samuel, God changed Saul's heart, and all these signs were fulfilled that day. 10 When they arrived at Gibeah, a procession of prophets met him; the Spirit of God came upon him in power, and he joined in their prophesying. 11 When all those who had formerly known him saw him prophesying with the prophets, they asked each other, "What is this that has happened to the son of Kish? Is Saul also among the prophets?" NIV

I surely do hope you get that tree under control.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 8:07pm

Interesting what you say about Saul.. I believe that we cannot loose our Salvation.. It could very well be that he is with the Lord. I don't see much evidence in his life of him having a new heart.. but I do remember him being tormented by demons and needing comfort from David's singing. I also remember him having no peace..never crying out to God...but seeking wisdom from Samuel (after Samuels death) instead of asking God. I wonder if Samuel said to him....."tomorrow you and your sons will be with me." not necessarily meaning Abrahams bosom. I don't know if we could know that beyond a shadow of a doubt. Could be... But, I think there are different views on whether or not it was even Samuel that Saul was talking to....(although i believe it probably was).

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 4, 2010 at 3:04am

Carla,

Actually, I do think our understanding of salvation is very important. However, there is a battle waging in our country for the for the heart of its people especially the children. The reason we are even able to have this kind of discussion is that we all believe the Bible is the absolute authority for life and understanding. I can certainly see how a position on each side of these issues can be established. I do believe the way I do but I also believe that it is our faith in Holy Scripture that keeps these discussions going. This is an example of authoritarianism. Politically, authoritarianism is very disadvantageous to its people. The people desire to be free. That same desire for freedom, however, has extended into the arena for the freedom of thought. There are those in our society who want to dethrone the authority of Scripture in thought of rule and practice in favor of a concept called moral relativism. Here, on AAG we all agree that Scripture is the rule. We all refer to Scripture as the final authority.

I love His Word and I could discuss it forever. I am completely confident that everything He has said concerning the future is absolutely going to come to pass. There are those who consider us less intelligent since we don't strive for freedom of thought. I personally believe we have been captured by His love. You recently made a statement that you cannot see how anyone could resist Him. I personally don't believe that it is possible to resist Him but whether we can or not we are a captured people.

The humanists look at us and wonder what is it that makes us believe. We look at them and wonder why they don't believe. That divide certainly exists. I personally believe that many or our politicians are humanists pretending to be Christian just to garner more votes. However, it is not for me to judge.

Real believers are desperate to be pleasing to their God. I read the posts of those who are striving with all that is within them to be surrendered to His will. How could their minds be so captured to this unseen force? Is there something about these people that is better than others? I don't think so, but there they are none-the-less striving to be pleasing to a force that they can't see, hear, smell, or touch. The humanists think they are foolish. What is the difference? The difference is faith.

I am convinced that those who have faith are chosen. I do not believe they are more or less intelligent. I don't believe that they are better or worse than their counterparts. The only difference is that one believes that God is real and that His Word is true and the other is seeking to live in a society free in thought. When you step into their shoes and look at us I think you might get a different picture of the working of God in our lives. To me the difference is faith and I personally believe that is a gift of God. You believe that can be rejected because you are more in the Armenian camp. I don't but I don't think that is what is of utmost importance. What is important is our public confession that we believe in this One that walked this earth 2,000 years ago.

People who believe in election and predestination are not evil as has been sometimes presented here on AAG. David is really attempting to get people just to understand the doctrine. It is not an evil doctrine. I know you don't think it is.

I do not have a better understanding or explanation of why some people believe and others do not. What I do know is that what we believe is under attack. That is inevitable and will always be until He returns. What is seeking to gain control of thought in our country is called the Enlightenment. That spirit has gained control of our classrooms and a major part of our media and is having a tremendous influence on our society.

Those who believe that the Scripture is the final authority must be united. The real battle is taking place outside of AAG. This is a wonderful place to find support and discussion. However, every day I go out to participate in this battle. I fight all the ungodly impressions these children get from their TV shows, books, peers and video games.

However, these young ones love to discuss His Word. They especially love to discuss what is going to happen in the future. As they enter their teenage years, they begin that major battle involved in adolescence. It is my job to teach them that they are not evil but normal. God made them this way for a reason. These are some of the most enjoyable years in life they will have. God loves these young ones so much. We must fight for our young. I see God's promise that if we train our children in the way they should go, when they are old they will not depart from that. I can testify that the plan works. Praise the Lord.

We are all on the same side.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on November 4, 2010 at 2:31am

Family-

As the name suggests, prevenient grace is grace that “comes before” something. It is normally defined as a work that God does for everybody. He gives all people enough grace to respond to Jesus. That is, it is enough grace to make it possible for people to choose Christ. Those who cooperate with and assent to this grace are “elect.” Those who refuse to cooperate with this grace are lost. The strength of this view is that it recognizes that fallen man’s spiritual condition is severe enough that it requires God’s grace to save him. The weakness of the position may be seen in two ways. If this prevenient grace is merely external to man, then it fails in the same manner that the medicine and the life preserver analogies fail. What good is prevenient grace if offered outwardly to spiritually dead creatures?

On the other hand, if prevenient grace refers to something that God does within the heart of fallen man, then we must ask why it is not always effectual. Why is it that some fallen creatures choose to cooperate with prevenient grace and others choose not to? Doesn’t everyone get the same amount?
Think of it this way, in personal terms. If you are a Christian you are surely aware of other people who are not Christians. Why is it that you have chosen Christ and they have not? Why did you say yes to prevenient grace while they said no? Was it because you were more righteous than they were? If so, then indeed you have something in which to boast. Was that greater righteousness something you achieved on your own or was it the gift of God? If it was something you achieved, then at the bottom line your salvation depends on your own righteousness. If the righteousness was a gift, then why didn’t God give the same gift to everybody?
Perhaps it wasn’t because you were more righteous. Perhaps it was because you are more intelligent. Why are you more intelligent? Because you study more (which really means you are more righteous)? Or are you more intelligent because God gave you a gift of intelligence he withheld from others?

To be sure, most Christians who hold to the prevenient grace view would shrink from such answers. They see the implied arrogance in them. Rather they are more likely to say, “No, I chose Christ because I recognized my desperate need for him.” That certainly sounds more humble. But I must press the question. Why did you recognize your desperate need for Christ while your neighbor didn’t? Was it because you were more righteous than your neighbor, or more intelligent?

The question for advocates of prevenient grace is why some people cooperate with it and others don’t. How we answer that will reveal how gracious we believe our salvation really is. The $64,000 question is, “Does the Bible teach such a doctrine of prevenient grace? If so, where?”
We conclude that our salvation is of the Lord. He is the One who regenerates us. Those whom he regenerates come to Christ. Without regeneration no one will ever come to Christ. With regeneration no one will ever reject him. God’s saving grace effects what he intends to effect by it.
Froem: R. C. Sproul, Chosen by God. Tyndale House Publishers: Wheaton, Ill.

To me PG seems to be the response by those who understand that "Free Will" is powerless to chose salvation without help, but they refuse to believe that Ephesians 1:4-14 and Romans 8-9 really says that God chose and predestined believers before the foundation of the world. If God does not regenerate our hearts before we believe and repent, but merely gives us enough conviction and Light to believe or reject, then grace becomes indistinguishable from an act of our will because good thoughts about Christ don't count as a righteous act, in their view.

Consider if we are spiritually blind, is it God who opens our eyes to see or we ourselves? Most Christians would say "God". But then go from eyes to heart and consider the same question. Our hearts were hardened against Christ loving darkness and hating the light (John 3:19). Was it God who softened our heart that we may believe the gospel or was it we ourselves? It seems that many think our eyes may be completely blind and need restoration but there may still be something in our heart that is alive without changing it. But it is dead and as useless as blind eyes. You either see or you do not. Likewise you either believe or you do not ... and the willingness to believe is a result of God's supernatural disarming of our hostility and giving us a heart which loves Christ. Why did we not believe before? Because we did not have the Holy Spirit who gives the mind of Christ. The text says, "Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God" (1 Cor 2:12). What are the things freely given of God? Jesus, his grace etc... We cannot know it without the Spirit. For the natural man does not understand them. But with the Spirit he does.

The Spirit must not only extend grace that helps people, but one that heals them. Jeremiah proclaiming YHWHs words said, I will turn your heart of stone to a heart of flesh that you might obey.
No one believes when their heart is stone, but when it becomes flesh by definition and by nature it is receptive to God's Word. The work of grace is already done. Our faith is the perfect result.

Much love to you all. You guys are having wayyyy too much fun without me, so hopefully I will catch up tonight. I love you all and thank you for carrying on a difficult topic in a respectful manner. As we should. I just knew my family would come through and show the world that hot topics can be enjoyed and discussed in love.

Thank you beloved Robbin, Robert, Barry, Sojurner, Carla, Louis and Roy.

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 4, 2010 at 8:47am

Hi David.
I don't view one type of grace against another.For me,grace is the same grace that carries us from our beginning,through to our earthly end.I understand how it may be helpful to define the same grace throughout different stages of our life,but I believe the different names we give to grace are describing the different stages,i.e,before salvation,at salvation and after salvation,rather than grace itself.Wesleys definition describes prevenient grace (preparing grace),which (as you say) describes God's grace in leading us to the cross.Now God's grace does not stop short of salvation but continues on at salvation,which Wesley describes as accepting grace (Justifying grace),because we are justified by no other means but by the blood of Jesus,by the grace of God.This same grace carries us on after salvation,which Wesley calls sustaining grace (sactifying grace),which keeps us in the palm of His hand to the very end.
It's the one and same grace of God which carries us from beginning to end,and the different view we have is not of grace,but rather what occures at the salvation stage.You also believe it's the one and same grace that carries you,but were we differ is in whether we were able to reject the gift of salvation or not.You believe not,hence the term 'irresistible.'
You ask if the grace leading to salvation (prevenient) is external or internal? It's both.For example,take the three thousand who heard the words of Peter (acts 2) and received his words with gladness.I doubt all three thousand were followers of Jesus before they heard the Gospel Peter presented,yet on hearing these powerful words,quickened by the Spirit,they received them and were set free in an instant.The words came via Peter (external),and struck through to the very hearts of these men (internal),by God's grace alone.Did all these men have faith? Yes I believe they did,as a gift of God which all men/women have as all were created in God's image.The Holy Spirit,through Peter,touched this same faith and ignited it to their salvation,by God's grace alone.
Although most of these men accepted these words with gladness,some did not.Why? Well this is were we differ,but it's the same grace,the same faith and the same Spirit that led most of these men to salvation,and the same grace,faith and Spirit that some rejected.

I'm talking to much : ( I'm not saying this is what you believe bro' but it is what I believe,and I also believe we have more to agree on,than disagree : )

Look forward to your replies,and the replies of my other brothers and sister/s,God Bless.

Sojourner.

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