WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on October 31, 2010 at 1:40am

Excellent comment. We give God the glory for such a wonderful comment.

God bless you all.

Louis.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 31, 2010 at 1:27am

Sojourner,

>>Ok,here's a question in response: For us,where does evil originate and what exactly is sin?

The origin of evil is one I cannot answer. I have read much about it but I cannot answer it. I know evil would not exist if God did not want it to exist. The only reason why evil exist is because in withing God's plan for now. Out of the thousands of ways He could have created us and the universe, He chose the current one. Knowing very well what would happened.

God's priority is not the salvation of every human being, that is not His priority, if it was He would save everybody for He has the power and authority to do so. His priority is His glory and His glory is demonstrated by saving some and passing righteous judgment upon others.

Where does evil originate, well like you yourself said evil is the absence of light. Evil is nothing. We cannot altogether deny the reality of evil. So what do we mean when we say that evil is nothing. I mean that evil is nothing? In the world or the world's system we get the idea that evil is some sort of independent substance, that evil exists in and of itself and that it influences the affairs of our life and of this world. But evil is not a thing that has existence. Evil has no being. It has no ontological status. Rather evil is an action of something that is a thing. I am something, you are something, and when I do something that is not good, then I am doing something that is evil. Evil, then, is the activity of a being. But it itself has no being.

So what being is the originator of evil. Let's see, Satan sin/disobeyed and broke God's laws by using his intelligence to reason and choosing to sit on the throne of God. But God already knew that and created Him with the capacity to sin and also knew his creation would choose to sin and though He could have created him with the ability to choose without the ability to sin, He did not. He made him just like He made him. So who created evil. I don't know.

Isaiah 45:7 in the King James Version reads, “I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.” How does Isaiah 45:7 agree with the view that God did not create evil? There are two key facts that need to be considered. (1) The word translated “evil” is from a Hebrew word that means “adversity, affliction, calamity, distress, misery.” Notice how the other major English Bible translations render the word: “disaster” (NIV, HCSB), “calamity” (NKJV, NAS, ESV), and “woe” (NRSV). The Hebrew word can refer to moral evil, and often does have this meaning in the Hebrew Scriptures. However, due to the diversity of possible definitions, it is unwise to assume that “I create evil” in Isaiah 45:7 refers to God bringing moral evil into existence. http://www.gotquestions.org/Isaiah-45-7.html

In the Westminster Catechism, we’re asked “What is sin?” And we’re told that sin is any “want of conformity to or transgression of the law of God”. Sin is described as a privation, as a want or a lack of conformity to the standards that God has set for righteousness. Sin is a privation (a want of conformity to) to the law of God.

The most frequent answer says that evil is located in human free will. The one who brings evil into being is exercising the faculty of choosing (a faculty given to them by God). Just as Lucifer (a fallen angel) went from being good to being evil when he exercised his free will to disobey God. The problem that prior to evil choices being made, a creature must have some sort of an inclination to evil. Some have come up with the concept of “concupicience” — something which is of sin and which inclines to sin but itself is not sin. That seems clever, but the problem is that whatever is of sin and inclines to sin is sin. It would seem to me that a being with an inclination to sin is sinful. Evil is not good, but it is good that there is evil. Otherwise, it would not be found in a world governed by a perfect God. God ordained that evil would come into being. Because evil things are working for good. Romans 8:28 could not be true unless God has ultimate power over evil. God ordained that evil would come into this world. Not naively, so that we would know the difference between good and evil, but for the sake of His redemptive purposes. When Joseph meets his brothers in Egypt, he says: “I’m not God. I know what you did. I know what your intentions were as moral creatures. But God meant it (the very same thing) for good” (Gen. 50:20). Sproul

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 31, 2010 at 7:02am

God bless you Pastor Dave for this excellent research. Not everyone agrees but it is certainly a position worth considering.

Great job,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Barry Renton on November 2, 2010 at 9:47am

Surely evil was made as good was made. The whole idea of John The Baptist was to let people understand the need to repent. If we could not cause sin, how could we repent? When life was created it was not suppose to be a simple walk from one end to the other. Its an obstical course thathas alot of highs aswell as lows. Our Lord came to this earth to help us vast in the glory. His word was simple. Its those who choose to listen will be saved. Jesus left his footprints in the sand as a path of escape, for we shall chose our own destiny, his prints will just lead us there

Permalink Reply by sojourner on November 2, 2010 at 10:49am

Hi Barry.
Good questions." If we could not cause sin,how could we repent?" In some ways this question lies at the heart of difference between the Calvinist and the Arminianist.
I touched on the issue of what evil is,in one of the further posts.Evil is not a created 'something' but a consequence of rebellion.So,no,God did not create evil.The big question is:Did God intend evil? The answer to this question is to be found in our understanding of who God is.God is pure in goodness,hates lies,will not lie/deceive and so forth.When I consider these questions and look at who the Scriptures reveal who God is,I cannot believe that God intended evil.
This is a sticking point for those who describe themselves as Calvinists because if God did not intend evil,then it must follow that man and the angels were created with the ability to choose,as you rightly allude to.
Having said all this,whether we believe in one or the other,is not a issue for salvation as we are all brothers and sisters in Christ.
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminianist,but respect those who hold to either view and label.
Don't know if this helps Barry,but there is many posts you could look through to help your understanding of those of different theological points of view.

God bless : )

Sojourner.

Permalink Reply by Barry Renton on November 2, 2010 at 9:32am

My knowledge of Calvanism and Arminianism is limited i am afraid but love to learn more. Would i be right in saying that the group leaders John Calvin and Jacob Arminius have never met. Infact Calvin past away not long after Arminius was born.

They both have more similar beliefs but with slight changes to doctrines. Both Protestants with difference in arguments.

However the Calvanists are methodists right??

Not my strongest subject so anyone please correct where i am wrong to help me understand

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 3, 2010 at 5:36am

Barry,

A study of Calvinism and Armenianism is not a waste of time but is not nearly as important as you finding out what the Scripture says on these issues. In the Protestant churches you will find that it is the Methodists and those similar that are Armenians while the Presbyterians and those similar adhere to Calvinism.

A verse that creates a lot of stir on the subject is found in Ephesians even though there are many. The verse says:

Eph 1:11

11 In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will, NIV

I personally believe exactly what this verse says. I believe that we have been chosen by God and predestined according to His plan. I believe that He works out everything in conformity with the purpose of His will.

I believe God calls, chooses, predestines and saves the individual. Others believe that the individual must consent to this call and he, in fact, chooses God. There will be insistence that it is God that chooses first but in the end it is up to man whether or not he accepts the call. According to them, some do and some don't. As we become more and more humanistic in our Enlightenment society, more people believe the latter. Before the Enlightenment, more people believed the former.

It is not crucial that you make a decision on this until you have studied many, many passages of Scripture on the issue. However, here is one old boy out here that does believe it is God that saves. I must admit we are getting fewer and fewer. Most are believing that the salvation of man is a partnership adventure. I don't agree but I have to get along with these as those who disagree with that are really in a minority.

God bless you in your search of Him.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 8:31am

Hi Roy,
You said this:
"It is not crucial that you make a decision on this until you have studied many, many passages of Scripture on the issue. However, here is one old boy out here that does believe it is God that saves. I must admit we are getting fewer and fewer. Most are believing that the salvation of man is a partnership adventure. I don't agree but I have to get along with these as those who disagree with that are really in a minority."

I agree that it is God who Saves. We cannot save ourselves. However, this is my problem with calvinism:

How is this Calvinism belief different from other 'beliefs' which say that only a certain number of people will be saved?for example: JW's hold this belief....although they may try to express it differently, they still say that only a certain specific number will be saved.

Did God not create all mankind?
Does God have favourites?

I can't believe that Jesus died for only a specified number of people.

Thanks for taking the time to answer my questions.
Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on November 3, 2010 at 8:55am

Sister Carla, I hope you don't mind if i jump in here. I can understand your feeling about the choosing of the few elects, but consider the below verse:

Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it. (Matthew 7:13-14) KJV

From the above statement made by Christ, you will see that heaven is not meant for all of mankind but only few people. We cannot change this, even though we wish it were not so but God has said it and it sure must come to pass.


"I can't believe that Jesus died for only a specified number of people".

But that is the truth, Matthew 7:13-14 was said by Christ himself. He told us he is life and he is telling us here that only a few will find him. Our emotions do not count, we want the entire world to be saved but what must be must be. It is not in our hands. Our responsibility is to see that we follow him like little children with all our hearts, soul and strength, and preach the gospel to as many as we can preach to. This is all I know for now.

I hope this helps, if not, I’m willing to learn more about this.

Blessings....

Louis.

Permalink Reply by Carla on November 3, 2010 at 9:43am

Hi Louis,

Thank you for responding.. I understand that only a few will find it.. But what is not clear to me is that God would CHOOSE some over others. God has no favourites. Scripture tells us that Jesus died for all mankind. And we respond once we 'hear' the gospel.

Eph 1:11 [fn] also we [fn] have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
Eph 1:12 to the end that we who were the first to hope in [fn] Christ would be to the praise of His glory.
Eph 1:13 In [fn] Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also [fn] believed, you were sealed in [fn] Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Eph 1:13 shows that we listen to the message of truth and then we respond--BY BELIEVING! then we are sealed.
I know that not all people will be saved.. but that's not because God didn't choose them...it's because they have rejected the message of Christ... they did not believe, so they were not sealed with the Holy Spirit of promise.

There is something called 'Hyper Calvinism' that teaches that people don't even bother preaching the gospel because God will save those whom HE chooses to save. This is a very dangerous teaching.

Jesus died for all

Jhn 3:13 "No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.


Jhn 3:14 "As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;


Jhn 3:15 so that whoever [fn] believes will in Him have eternal life.


Jhn 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His [fn] only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.


Jhn 3:17 "For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


Jhn 3:18 "He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the [fn] only begotten Son of God.


Jhn 3:19 "This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.


Jhn 3:20 "For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.


Jhn 3:21 "But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


This hole business on predestination is true, but it is true in that God predestined a rememdy for sin and death for all humanity... God has no favourites. Some will respond, others will not.
Why would God make a way for gentiles to be saved and then say... NO--not you... i meant the guy beside you.. Pride is the root of all sin... satan has blinded the hearts and mind of those who do not believe--they have no choice right now as they are under his (satan's) control:

2Cr 4:3 And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled [fn] to those who are perishing,
2Cr 4:4 in whose case the god of this [fn] world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving [fn] so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.

see also Eph 2:2 and John 12:31
unbelievers are caught in the snare of satan.. 2 Timothy 2:26. 1 John 5:19

But---Acts 2:21....Act 2:21 And anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.' [fn]

and ....
Rom 10:11 As the Scriptures tell us, "Anyone who believes in him will not be disappointed. [fn]"
Rom 10:12 Jew and Gentile are the same in this respect. They all have the same Lord, who generously gives his riches to all who ask for them.
Rom 10:13 For "Anyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." [fn] NLT

Let's look at the word 'anyone' In the KJV the word is 'whosoever'...

G3956
πᾶς
pas
pas
Including all the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; all, any, every, the whole: - all (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Salvation is not for 'some' rather it is for 'whosoever'.
Predestination is addressed in scripture---It means that at the fall--God made a plan for all of humanity to be reconciled to Him--He predestined this plan--which involves the people from all over the world..every tribe and nation... Whosoever will call on Him...

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by RoyW on November 3, 2010 at 10:01am

Carla,

There is much confusion over this issue. I believe David's mission here is not to persuade everyone to be a Calvinist but to help people to understand the difference. I must admit that I do have the tendency to try to get people to believe the way that I believe. I am doing my best to overcome that tendency. Recently I was called a bulldog. I can tell you that I have been called that several times.

Once I was a member of a Southern Baptist church. I went there since my beliefs were very confusing to the Armenian bunch that I was fellow-shipping with. The pastor of the SBC church invited me to speak on several occasions. He once mentioned to me that he had never heard of the things I spoke of. He was persuaded that this was the truth or at the very least something to be considered. However, some people in the church were offended and the superintendent was brought in. He called me a hyper-Calvinist. He insisted (not the first time in my life) that I attend a Calvinistic church. I did but found I didn't fit there either. They told me that I wasn't even a full-fledged Calvinist. Both were leaders but both had much confusion over the subject.

David has done a good job (I think) explaining the differences. I personally have not been able to explain away verses like "All that the Father gives me will come to me," or "We were chosen in Him before the foundation of the earth." The "whosoever" you speak about, I have no problems with. When you say to me "Whosoever will," you are not speaking against what I believe. I hope that makes sense.

However, I think your definition of predestination is more of your opinion rather than what it really means. I also believe He had a plan and works out every minute detail in that plan. I believe He has predestined that plan. However, I think the reference in Scripture is to individuals as well. I personally see some serious flaws in your definition.

Thanks again,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Louis Akporiaye on November 3, 2010 at 10:33am

Sister Carla, to add to Bro Roy’s comment, let me draw reference from your below statement:

Pride is the root of all sin... satan has blinded the hearts and mind of those who do not believe--they have no choice right now as they are under his (satan's) control:
They are under satan’s control because they are not chosen. Only those that are chosen will be able to come out in due time.
Can you ask yourself why you accepted the call and others did not? Can you ask yourself how you managed to have interest in the gospel while others don’t have interest? Can you ask yourself why many people hate evil while others find pleasure in it? Can you say it was because you heard the gospel and responded that made you a Christian today? Others could have heard and accepted the way you did, but why did they not accept? Take the case of Saul as an example; he did not accept the gospel when he heard it but when something unusual happened to him, his entire heart changed. The one-time Pharisee became a soldier of Christ. His desire for Him was so strong that when God sent a prophet from Jerusalem to him concerning how he would be arrested, he did not prevent it, instead he was prepared to give his life for someone he had been persecuting. Now tell me, if God can go to the extent of transforming Saul that way, why can’t He choose those who reject His call that way? If He decided to choose them the same way He choose Paul, will they reject?

It is obvious that God has planned everything, those who respond are the ones that are called, while those who do not respond are the ones that are not called. It is simple. This is my view of Christianity. Many like to enjoy their lives in this world (they are not called), if they are called, God will change their thinking within a twinkle of an eye. This is what I believe. It does not depend on the individual because salvation is not a physical thing, it has spirituality written all over it and those that are chosen are spiritually chosen before they can respond to the call.

Blessings……

Louis.

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