WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 15, 2010 at 3:17am

1. You have a great sense of humor, which is great and appreciated.

2. http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/what-is-arminianism-and-1
check out the discussion we had in the forum about this same topic, it was pretty cool.

3.The Lord has guided you to a healthy place. This is a very active community. There are blogs, groups and forums, Chat, private and public messages. Each of the mediums of communication has their intended purposes and goals. Iin the Forums and groups we discuss all and any issue pertaining to God and Godliness.
I am in total agreement with "stick to the bible". But Unless we have never gone to a church or fellowship with other believers we will never be confronted with various interpretations of the same verses we have concluded to mean something else. Most pastors, elders have a "philosophy" of how to interpret the bible, hermeneutics and also aling to one of the two major schools of theology. Pastors and teachers will hardly ever mention this topic, but they certainly fall into one of them. It is important to be aware of them, at least in the most basic forms to gauge if what we are being taught actually aligns correctly with scripture. Each of them "sticks to the bible" but their presuppositions as to what rules to use to interpret it and the interpretation of the verses lead them to radically different conclusions. It is our God given task to rightly divide the word of truth. It is good to know how to study the bible, which rules we use for reading it, to what theoloical school of thought we aling closer to. You by the sound what you have writen would aling closer to Arminiansim, wouldn't you like to know if that system which you have been taught is correct?

We are one body with many different members. Those who want to keep things as simple as possible and do not desire to understand the differences that exist among the multiple denominations or theological schools of thought are just as important in the body as those who hold multiple PHD’s. The thing is that the guy holding a PhD should not think that the person that has no interest in venturing into to the multitude of doctrines has no love for God's word or a desire to know Him deeply.

The person who is contend with their understanding of scripture and does not venture in to research as to why there are two major schools of theology etc, should not think that the person looking at all the different issues does not know God as they do. They should not think that they are too busy researching to actually live the word.

If we however understand that we are one body with different members, with different callings, then we are free to love one another in the bond of peace and love we have in Christ.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 15, 2010 at 6:13am

Robert,

Believe it or not, you are not the first person to have this kind of opinion. There are many right here on this site that would quickly agree with you. However, I guess I would have to say that I am not one of those.

I understand why you are wanting the interpretation of Scripture to be simpler. However, you are not going to get your wish. By the way, you are not a cat. You are much more complicated. There are events that are going to happen in your life that you are not going to be able to understand. "Why did God allow this to happen to me?" you will ask. Your cat will never ask that kind of question. God wants us to study His Word. He wants us to have a greater understanding of His plan and purpose. Your cat has no understanding of its purpose. God wants you to understand why things happen the way that they do. Do you understand that so many Christians that have been Christian for many, many years are still asking the same question, "WHY."

Robert, are you prepared to give an answer to these people? Do you understand God's purpose for your life? Do you understand why things happen the way they do happen? I can say for certain that you are not yet ready to give many answers to questions. You do need to study His Word and figure out something about what He is saying. Our relationship with God cannot be compared to your relationship to your cats. Please take a look again at what you said in your post. You said:

The bible scriptures are complicated and over thousands of years open to mans interpretation, and this is why we find christianity & the world in the mess it is in today. The theology detailed by David is of man and his interpretation of the Bibles teaching, therefore it is not of God, i feel if as christians we need a more simple approach to the bible and our realtionship with God, His grace and our reason for the life He has given us, mankind would be in a happier place.

David is a very kind person. I can assure you that you did not offend him. He is very kind to you in his response. However, I would really encourage you to read carefully his response.

I am not sure what you are saying here:

Satin has the power to distroy man and ruin lives, instead of trying to work out how and why God thinks or what His actions mean, why not just live peacfully in His Grace and bring the love of Jesus to your fellow man.

One thing for sure is that Satan is like a roaring lion seeking whom he may devour. However, the Word of God gives us understanding why things happen the way they do. If we are not willing to study His Word, those events will just continue to occur without stop. Knowledge of His Word and then action by faith in His Word can alter these very damaging events. The lack of knowledge in His Word makes us much more vulnerable to Satan's attacks.

The study of Armenianism v. Calvinism is not a good place to begin your study of His Word. Eventually, that will become more important to you. Right now your goal to bring the love of Jesus to your fellow man is a very good one. It is extremely important. However, don't assume that those who are digging deep in His Word for more of His truth don't have the same goal. Many of those who are driven to His Word are being driven there because of the purpose of bringing the love of Jesus to their fellow man.

God bless you as your grow in His grace and knowledge of the Truth. It is great to have you commenting on AAG. May I recommend the following verse among many, many others:

2 Pe 1:5 For this very reason, make every effort to add to your faith goodness; and to goodness, knowledge; NIV

A brother in Christ,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Robert Smyth on October 16, 2010 at 10:47am

Thanks David & Roy for your response to my post, it may have seemed to you that i was a little tough on the theology of Arminianism & Calvinism school of thought. I've had a pretty tough week myself, lots of mental pressure, but i've looked at the two schools of thought and read the bible and come up with this.

Predestine only comes up in the bible 2 or 3 times by name, mostly letters written by Paul, and as i as most christians believe every thing in the bible is christian fact and must be understood not argued against i will and now do believe that there is a place for the predestine theology, but and here's where i may differ slightly, i am more likely to follow the predestine message as mentioned by God & Jesus than man.

Romans 3 v4 Certainly not indeed, let God be true but every man a liar, As it is written "That You may be justified in your words,
And may overcome when you are judged,.

Romans 3 v10 As it is written:
There is none righteous, no, not one;
v11 There is none who understands;
There is none who seeks after God

now there are several principals that run throughout the bible, from Genesis to Revelations, one of these principals is that man is a sinner, is unwise, foolish, and will suffer death because of sin, there are hundreds of passages on this subject. Keeping this in mind.

lets look at messers Jacobus Arminius, Hugo Grotius, John Wesley, John Calvin & Martin Bucer to name a few. It goes without saying that they fall into the catagory of sinful man, as their writings and theology do not appear in the bible, therefore the fact that religious followings have to belong to one of either camp is wrong, these guys by having this sort of sway on christian teaching and following is nothing more than madness.

If christians are going to follow predestine teaching it should come from a bible principal not a man with a therory on what he feels the bible says, and we end up hundreds of years later with his theory being a principal of christian theology. Madness.

So from my reading of the bible, here's what i see both God & Jesus saying,
Jeremiah 31 v34 No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more,

John 5 v24 most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life and shall not come into judgement, but has passed from death into life.

John 11 v25 Jesus said to her, I am the resurrection and the life.He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live
V26 And whoever lives and believes in Me shall never die. Do you believe this.

I believe and you can correct me if you feel different is that if every human being on this planet heard the word of God and believed, they all would be saved from death to life, and that the only reason this would not happen is
a, not everyone will hear the word
b, not everyone will believe

In the above passages God knows this and He also therefore has predestined that many will not be saved because of this, unlike the calvinism view where it is stated that not everyone will be saved as if God has already picked who he will save, this is a negative and ungodly approach to christianity. If Christians lead a more christian life, showed a more christian example to their fellow man, spreading the word of God, getting people to except God's love would be an easyier task.

But protraying as a fact that God has already picked the people he will save and there's nothing we can do about it, seems a bit negitive, sinful and unchristian, but then this theology came from man, so why would would we expect it to be any different.

Roy your comment that God wants us to understand why things happen the way they do in life and the fact that many Christans ask why, could you give me some scriptures on this. I believe things many negative happen to people both christian and non christian because of our sinfulness, and ungodly approah we have to life, if we looked to God more and prayed more and thought before we acted, spook, our lifes and everyone around us would be better.

We are to blame for the suffering we bring on ourselves, God does direct us and guide us, help us and change our lives if we pray, believe and ask for his mercy and grace, but we don't often enough and with his mercy and grace we often use it to be more sinful instead of more Godly.

May God bless you day

Robert

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 16, 2010 at 11:19am

Robert,

As David mentioned, your thinking is more in line with Armenian theology. There is no reason to be ashamed of that. However, unless you are quite sure that you have reached the stage of being all-knowing, you cannot yet judge those in the camp that is only slightly different from the camp you are in as being unChristian.

Col 1:9-11 For this reason, since the day we heard about you, we have not stopped praying for you and asking God to fill you with the knowledge of his will through all spiritual wisdom and understanding. 10 And we pray this in order that you may live a life worthy of the Lord and may please him in every way: bearing fruit in every good work, growing in the knowledge of God, NIV

Robert, I do not wish to argue with you the point of predestination. I am perfectly fine with the knowledge that you do not believe in it. I am not in the lease offended. However, the idea that the word only occurs a few times in the Bible surely would not be a reason for you not to believe in it. How many times have you found the word "Trinity" in the Bible? How about the word "rapture" - is that word in the Bible?

Robert, what do you say that we just agree to say that we disagree on the subject of predestination. If you want to think that I am believing in a doctrine of man and that you believe what Jesus and God believes, have at it. Again, I am not offended. I would be glad to discuss the issue with you but I am not interested if you are convinced that what you believe is from God and what I believe is from man. If that is going to continue to be your position, then brother I am done. If you wish to continue, then you are going to have to have the understanding that there just might be some things that you do not yet understand.

God bless you and may you continue to grow in your knowledge of God.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Robert Smyth on October 18, 2010 at 10:47am

Hi Roy

I have found over the last week more than any other time that being a Christian is a personal walk with God, it is good to come together and worship and occasionally gain insight and wisdom from other christians but in general it's a personal thing.

As far as being "ashamed" for my arminianism believe I wouldn't say "ashamed" is the word i'd use or for that matter would I say my believes are of a arminianism nature as this is a piece of theology thought up by man to explain something in the bible, i'd rather just believe whats in the bible without a second rethink of the scripture.

I have no problem with what your beliefs are and if your happy with them then that's great, but my problem is a theology that has been thought out by man and has effected and does effect christian churches and christians faith.

I found your quote from Colossians is quite apt as this was a letter Paul wrote to the Colossian church warning of false teachings that threatened the church of colossian. And i seemed to mention in my last post i believed Calvinism is a false teaching for the christian church, not because im any more learned, to the contrary i know for a fact there are probably 10's of thousands of christians in the world today with a far wider and more understanding view to the bible scriptures, which again amazes me why these teaching of Calvinism have been allowed to still be part of christian theology.

This may be seen as wrong but i've rewrote john 3 v16 inline with Calvinismist view, it seems somewhat less loving, possibly a touch negitive, but i hope it demonstrates the difference between God's teaching and mans wisdom.

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, so that whoever He knows will believe in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 18, 2010 at 3:03pm

Robert,

Do you believe Armenianism is a false teaching of the church? Is that the system that you believe in? Let me ask you another question. Do you believe in the Trinity? If so, why? Where can you point in the Bible that the Trinity is taught?

Also, can you explain to me your beliefs concerning end-time events? When you do, you will find that many on here will disagree with you whatever your position is. You may say that you just don't know what you believe concerning end-times. That would be okay as well.

When you say that Calvinism is a false teaching, you would have to dismiss a great portion of the church down through the ages. Some of the great heroes of the faith would agree with the teaching beginning with the Apostle Paul, also included would be:


Abraham Kuyper
Alexander Henderson
Alvin Plantinga
Ambrosius Blarer
Andrew Bonar
Andrew Purves
Anthony A. Hoekema
Archibald Alexander
Archibald Alexander Hodge
Augustus Montague Toplady
Benjamin Breckinridge Warfield
Charles Hodge
Cornelius Van Til
Cotton Mather
D. H. Th. Vollenhoven
Donald Macpherson Baillie
Edmund Clowney
Francis Schaeffer
Francis Turretin
Friedrich Spanheim
Gary North
George Whitefield
Gisbertus Voetius
Gordon Clark
H.R. Mackintosh
Heinrich Bullinger
Hendrik Van Riessen
Herman Dooyeweerd
Hermann Witsius
Horatius Bonar
Huldrych Zwingli
Increase Mather
J. I. Packer
James Boice
Johann Heinrich Heidegger
Johann Jakob Grynaeus
Johannes Cocceius
Johannes Oecolampadius
John Baillie
John Bunyan
John Calvin
John Frame
John Gresham Machen
John Knox
John Murray
John Owen
Jonathan Edwards
Joseph Pipa
Josue de la Place
K. J. Popma
Karl Barth
Leo Jud
Martin Bucer
Martin Luther
Michael Horton
Moses Amyraut
Nicholas Wolterstorff
Oswald Myconius
Peter Taylor Forsyth
Philip Schaff
Pietro Martire Vermigli
Princeton theologians
R. C. Sproul
Reinhold Niebuhr
Richard Mouw
Robert Dick Wilson
Robert Murray M'Cheyne
Robert Smith Candlish
Robert South
Rousas John Rushdoony
S. U. Zuidema
Samuel Rutherford
Samuel Werenfels
Sinclair Ferguson
Theodore Beza
Theodore Bibliander
Thomas Boston
Thomas Erastus
Thomas Erskine
Thomas Torrance
Wilhelm Herrmann
William Farel
Wolfgang Fabricius Capito

Do I need to go on?

What about Rembrandt or Galileo or David Livingstone I presume.

Do you want more?

Have you ever read a sermon by the prince of all preachers - Charles Hadden Spurgeon? Another modern day preacher is John MacArthur. Robert, I could go on and on. Some of the greatest theologians in the history of the church have aligned themselves with this teaching. It comes straight from the Word of God. It is the closest to God's Word that I can find.

Your post indicates that you would like to get rid of all these people that believe this way from the Christian church. I can tell you that you could burn them at the stake (that has happened) and still they would continue to believe that they are saved by God's grace alone and not by any work. That is what the belief is. Your belief requires you to do something. Your belief is based on works in my opinion. I just can't go along with you or anyone else who believes that we must do in order to be saved. I think that belief is absolutely incorrect. However, I would never say I think their beliefs should be gotten rid of. I certainly would not burn you at the stake for being an Armenian.

I am just about finished communicating with you on this subject because your attitude towards those who believe. I would be glad to help you understand if that was your purpose but so far I can that tell it is not.

Because this post is so long, I may delete it. However, I wish you well in your studies. When you are ready for an understanding of the belief, let me know.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 27, 2010 at 2:55am

Hey Robert,

>>lets look at messers Jacobus Arminius, Hugo Grotius, John Wesley, John Calvin & Martin Bucer to name a few. It goes without saying that they fall into the catagory of sinful man, as their writings and theology do not appear in the bible, therefore the fact that religious followings have to belong to one of either camp is wrong, these guys by having this sort of sway on christian teaching and following is nothing more than madness.

It is so easy, isn't to make such statements and feel you have really said something worth typing. It is so easy to group those theologians and say what they lived for and believe is not in the bible. How many of Calvin’s books have you read? How many of Arminius have you read. Are you familiar with Jonathan Edwards, RC Sproul, Augustine, not from what you been told about them or what you read on a website, but how much have you invested in research. How many books have you bought from AW Tozer?

No not trying to embarrass you, I am not called to do that and for all I know you may have a bigger library than the one I have, but is not about such things anyways, but about sincere and honest labor in such matters as Arminianism and Calvinism by aligning them to scripture to make an honest and insightful commentary about them. Paul, Peter, James, John, David, Moses and etc.... were sinful men God used as well.

You say their theology does not appear in the bible- show me. Let’s take the tulip one doctrine of grace at a time and show me how it is not in the bible. Let's take the Five articles of Remonstrance and pin point why they do not align to scripture. I am up for it, if you are. This is one of my groups so you are welcome to fire away in love. I love these topics and you have lots of opinions, which is a great thing. Now let’s see if your opinions are correct or not.

>>So from my reading of the bible, here's what I see both God & Jesus saying,Jeremiah 31 v34 No more shall every man teach his neighbour, and every man his brother saying, Know the Lord, for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity and their sin I will remember no more,

Ephesians 4

11 It was he who gave some to be apostles, some to be prophets, some to be evangelists, and some to be pastors and teachers, 12 to prepare God's people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up 13 until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.


>>I believe and you can correct me if you feel different is that if every human being on this planet heard the word of God and believed, they all would be saved from death to life, and that the only reason this would not happen is
a, not everyone will hear the word
b, not everyone will believe

I am in agreement with your above assessment. Very good Robert, it aligns with scripture. Two questions: 1. what happens to those that don't hear the word? 2. Why do some believe and others don't?

>>In the above passages God knows this and He also therefore has predestined that many will not be saved because of this, unlike the Calvinism view where it is stated that not everyone will be saved as if God has already picked who he will save, this is a negative and ungodly approach to Christianity.

Show me with the bible how that is an unbiblical belief and show me how your interpretation is the correct one please.

>>But protraying as a fact that God has already picked the people he will save and there's nothing we can do about it, seems a bit negitive, sinful and unchristian, but then this theology came from man, so why would would we expect it to be any different.

Would you like me to show you, why your statements are wrong never mentioning Calvin or Arminius. I will simply use the bible. Do you like to learn and study? Do you consider the topic of God and all things pertaining to God and his people the most important topics to you? Can you discuss these issues without assonating the character of those participating on the dialogue/discussion.?

Blessings to you my brother and I would love to walk through this whole thing with you, only using the bible.

What say you Robert?

Permalink Reply by Robert Smyth on October 18, 2010 at 5:07pm

Hi Roy

Thats some list, and i do think we should live together in our differences, faith is the only thing that really matter and as time passes, its a bit like chinese whispers, things are bound to distort as time passes, but if we all believe in the one God and our saviour Jesus, who knows maybe the rest will be incidental to our faith.

May God bless your day

Robert

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 18, 2010 at 5:35pm

Robert,

You are correct when you say faith is all that matters. That is all that God accepts. How do you believe you came to your faith?

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on October 27, 2010 at 1:56am

Sis Tia

Revelation 3:20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he [will dine] with me.”

The key phrase to consider is: "I shall come in to him."

Jesus is the one knocking and He is the one going in. Is all Jesus. But the question we should be asking is who is He talking to and about?. Is he talking about the lost world? We use this verse to teach that Jesus is knocking on the hearts of all humans and those that hear Him will open the door.

Jesus was speaking to His Church, not the lost world. To those in the Laodicean church. Were they not believers? In the preceding verse, the resurrected Lord declares, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline."

Here filevw is used for "love"--a word that is never used of God/Jesus loving unbelievers in the NT. It would be impossible for God to have this kind of love for an unbeliever, for it routinely speaks of enjoyment and fellowship. "Be zealous, therefore, and repent." The word ("therefore") connects the two parts of the verse, indicating that the Laodiceans are to repent because Christ loves them!

Also beloved, is worthy to note that Jesus is coming in to, not into. One means to come in to the house, the other means to come into the person. So the verse to me is saying, I will come in to where the person is. Not into the person. He is coming in to him (where the person is) to dine with him. Not into the person, as penetrating the person.

Daniel Wallace states the following:

>>What, then, is this verse is affirming? First, it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly "received Christ into their hearts" without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation.4 Second, as far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. Either way, it is not a verse about salvation at all, for the Laodiceans were already saved.

Does this mean that those who have come to faith in Christ via Rev 3:20 are not saved? This answer needs some nuancing. First, if they have truly put their faith in Christ, and they understand that he alone can save them from their sins, then of course they are saved. The problem is that many people cling to the symbol but never understand the reality it is intended to represent. Most likely, tens of thousands of people have "invited Christ into [their] hearts," thinking that a mystical experience is what saves them. Then, they go on their merry way, living their lives as they did before. If you were to ask them, "How do you know that you are going to heaven?" they would respond, "Because I invited Christ into my heart." But if you probe, there is nothing beneath the shallowness of that reply. They did what someone told them to do, but never really embraced the Savior.

Blessings beloved

Permalink Reply by RoyW on October 23, 2010 at 4:50pm

Robbin,

Wow, there is some terminology in your post that I am not quite used to. However, I do agree that we were chosen in Him before the foundation of this world. He predestined us to be His children:

Eph 1:4-6
4 For he chose us in him before the creation of the world to be holy and blameless in his sight. In love 5 he predestined us to be adopted as his sons through Jesus Christ, in accordance with his pleasure and will— 6 to the praise of his glorious grace, which he has freely given us in the One he loves. NIV

The hard-drive reference in your post almost sounds like you believe we had consciousness before our conception. I guess I wouldn't be in agreement with that but I certainly would agree that we were predestined before he even created the earth.

It is exciting to know we are His children.

Your brother,
Roy

Permalink Reply by sojourner on October 25, 2010 at 9:46pm

Hi Roy.

I've been giving the Calvinist/Arminianist theologies some thought for awhile now,and although I don't see myself firmly in either camp,I lean towards Arminianism.
I see positive's in both schools of thought,but I also see the negatives,including the dangers of taking either to an extreme.I notice you mention Charles Spurgeon.A great preacher and theologian indeed,but although he was in the Calvinist camp,he cautioned about the extremes of either Calvinism or Arminianism.
For me,the Calvinist view presents real difficulties,for example:
Did God intend evil?
Was man created without the ability to make choices,even though man was created in the image of God?
These are just two questions out of many,but vital when considering the two views above.
I am here to learn and hope that I can stretch my understanding that bit more while musing the thoughts of my brothers and sisters.

Hey! This is my first real forum posting on AAG! : ) ...Sorry,that just occured to me.

Anyways,God bless all.

Sojourner.

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