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Who is.................
When I think of God, I think of Three
Father=Thinker
Son=Speaker
Holy Spirit=Doer
When I start out reading Genesis, I see all Three at work.
When I see Lord God, I think of Jesus.
I know that all Three are always in agreement. What i am trying to understand is Who is the Almighty...in other words, Who of the Trinity is spoken of in this term?
Throughout the Old Testament, different Names are used to refer to One or All of the Trinity.
(When I break down the Trinity in this manner, it seems to give me better understanding.)
In Job, for example, I think of Christ as being the Speaker.
Could anyone give me some help on this?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on
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Rita,
John 17 tells us that we can KNOW the Father and Son. KNOW as in the intimacy of marriage. My husband and I are so familiar with each other that we even know what each other are thinking and can pre-empt it. We pick up each others characteristics and it is as if we are ONE even though we are separate beings. Its a joining of the soul. The same connection goes with our children. We are UNITED even though there are many of us (5 in total).
The scritpure in John 17 also says that He has finished the work that the Father gave Him which kinda debunks your theory of Jesus being the Speaker only because He clearly did as in a Doer as well. Father gave the orders. We can KNOW the Father and Son if we have an ear for what the Spirit says to the Churches. Now thats the Spirit speaking which again goes against your theory of the Spirit being the Doer. God is Spirit we must remember:
Joh 4:24 God is a spirit, and the ones worshiping Him must worship in spirit and truth.
The Godhead is UNITED.
I often look at the story of Joseph and how Pharaoh was...... well I'll let the scripture speak:
Gen 41:38 And Pharaoh said to his servants, Can we find any man like this, in whom is the Spirit of God?
Gen 41:39 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, Since God has taught you all this, there is no one wise and intelligent like you.
Gen 41:40 You shall be over my house, and at your mouth all my people shall kiss the hand. Only in respect to the throne will I be greater than you.
Gen 41:41 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, Behold, I have put you over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:42 And Pharaoh took off his ring from his hand and put it on the hand of Joseph; and he clothed him with fine linen robes, and put a golden chain on his neck.
Gen 41:43 And he caused him to ride in a chariot which was the second to him. And they cried before him, Bow the knee! And he put him over all the land of Egypt.
Gen 41:44 And Pharaoh said to Joseph, I am Pharaoh, and without a word from you not a man shall lift his hand or his foot in all the land of Egypt.
Notice it states that all my people shall kiss the hand - cross ref to this:
Psa 2:12 Kiss the Son, lest He be angry, and you perish from the way, when His wrath is kindled but a little. Oh the blessings of all those who flee to Him for refuge!
Jesus came in the full power and authority of God Almighty only in the throne is the Father greater and even Jesus said the Father was greater:
Joh 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of My Father's hand.
It is also known that Jesus sits at the right hand of the Father:
Heb 10:12 But He, offering but one sacrifice for sins, "sat down" in perpetuity "at the right hand" of God,
And other scriptures that I am sure you know of.
It is complex but I believe it can be KNOW as scripture tells us that the Father and Son can be KNOWN just as my children know me. Its just hard to find as the road to life is hard to find OR NARROW.
Blessings
Linda Ruth
This is not a thus saith Linda but simply my meanderings in studying the Trinity.
I believe in ONE God
I believe in Jesus as the Son of God
I believe Jesus was fully Divine and fully Man - He was from God and with God in the beginning
I believe in the Spirit of the Living God given as gift to all men who believe
I believe all are UNITED - ONE!
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Rita,
I am enjoying your questions and posts. Perhaps the most difficult concept for us to grasp is this very issue that you have raised. I wonder how many would come to the conclusion of the Trinity had we not been taught the concept. However, I cannot think of a better explanation of the Godhead which is a very obvious concept in Scripture. I may not have been the one to organize our doctrine of the Trinity but I really feel it is the proper explanation of what we read in Scripture.
What do you think? Is it necessary to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved? That might be a discussion of some value. I have heard it both ways.
John Calvin put it this way: "That Father and Son and Spirit are one God, yet the Son is not the Father, nor the Spirit the Son, but that they are differentiated by a particular quality."
http://www.joyfulheart.com/scholar/trinity.htm
Calvin insisted on belief in the Trinity.
But John Wesley, on the other hand, though believing said this:
4. I dare not insist upon any one's using the word Trinity, or Person. I use them myself without any scruple, because I know of none better: But if any man has any scruple concerning them, who shall constrain him to use them? I cannot: Much less would I burn a man alive, and that with moist, green wood, for saying, "Though I believe the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Ghost is God; yet I scruple using the words Trinity and Persons, because I do not find those terms in the Bible." These are the words which merciful John Calvin cites as wrote by Servitus in a letter to himself. I would insist only on the direct words, unexplained, just as they lie in the text: "There are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: And these three are one."
http://new.gbgm-umc.org/umhistory/wesley/sermons/55/
In this regard, I think I would agree more with John Wesley than John Calvin. But like both, how else is it possible to describe this glorious truth? Jesus claimed to be God but openly spoke of His Father God and the Spirit as a person. That is:
But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come. John 16:13 NIV
Good job, Rita.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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>>What do you think? Is it necessary to believe in the doctrine of the Trinity in order to be saved?
Beloved Rita I hope you don't mind me answering Roy's question. I don't want to take the discussion elsewhere if you don't want, so just let me know and I will comply with your wishes. But I will answer the question here since I know you love me hahaha.
The Oneness Pentecostal Movement (also known as Jesus Name or Apostolic Pentecostalism) Oneness Pentecostals reject the doctrine of the Trinity. They do not describe God as three persons, but rather as three manifestations of the one living God. They also baptize using Jesus' Name only when water baptisms are performed, rather than that of the Trinity.
I do not agree with all the teachings of TD Jakes, who is a Oneness Pentecostal, but do not dare say he is not a Godly man. I believe him to be save and I have heard him preach some great sermons. I also visited a Oneness Pentecostal church once when the Lord tugged at my heart to stop and worship there on a day my home church did not have any activity. And I was completely blessed in the service. I later found out about their beliefs and asked the Lord why was He among them when they had a distorted view of scripture when it comes to the deity/Godhead and He told me, don't worry son, I know what I am doing. I simply said - ok. They claim that there is one person in the Godhead who has manifested himself in three different forms: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. These "forms" are not three distinct persons, but one person who occupied consecutive modes. The Trinity, on the other hand, is the teaching that there is one God who exists in three distinct, simultaneous, persons.
Defining the word person is key to understand why the Oneness Pentecostal movements errs in believing as they do about the Godhead, but I will not go down that tangent haha :)
All that to say this, to be saved we must repent, believe in our heart and confess with our mouth that Jesus is Lord, so the full understanding of the nature of God is not require to be saved.
What say you bro.
Blessings
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Linda -
>>Jesus came in the full power and authority of God Almighty only in the throne is the Father greater and even Jesus said the Father was greater:
Joh 10:29 My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all, and no one is able to pluck out of My Father's hand.
What does that mean to you, that the father is greater than Jesus? Are you saying Jesus said the father is Greater than him?
"My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all"
John 10:30 I and the Father are one."
How is that verse saying the father is greater than Jesus and in what way?
Than all - Than all others - men, angels, devils. The word includes everything - everything that could attempt to pluck them away from God; in other words, it means that God is supreme. It implies, further, that God will keep them, and will so control all other beings and things that they shall be safe. Barnes' Notes on the Bible
Jesus is not including himself in that statement. Jesus is God, equall with God the Father.
Do you believe Jesus is God?
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I have already stated that Jesus is Divine.
But one cannot ignore what John 10:29 plainly states which is, "My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all........."
It is also stated here:
Joh 14:28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I.
I can understand it no other way than what is the plain meaning of the text but will investigate based upon your understanding.
The Father and Jesus are ONE! Halleluyah!
God Bless!
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Linda,
So by stating that Jesus is divine, you are saying that He is God then?
Joh 14:28 You heard that I said to you, I am going away, and I am coming again to you. If you loved Me, you would have rejoiced that I said, I am going to the Father; for My Father is greater than I.
Jesus in no way was admitting inferiority to the father, after claiming equality repeatedly. In the same chapter He said this:
If you really knew me, you would know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him." 8 Philip said, "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us." 9 Jesus answered: "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, 'Show us the Father'? 10 Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you are not just my own. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the miracles themselves.
Jesus was saying to His disciples that if they loved Him, they would not be reluctant to let Him go to the Father because He was returning to the realm where He belong and to the full glory He gave up: And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began.John 17:5
He was going back to share equal glory with the Father which He himself emptied himself of.
5 Your attitude should be the same as that of Christ Jesus: 6 Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but made himself nothing(emptied himself) taking the very nature of a servant, being made in human likeness. 8And being found in appearance as a man, he humbled himself and became obedient to death— even death on a cross! Philippians 2
He is in no way inferior to the Father. Only in his humiliation was the father greater in glory than He.
>>But one cannot ignore what John 10:29 plainly states which is, "My Father who has given them to Me is greater than all........."
Jesus was not including himself in that statement, in context He was talking about all who would want to santch the saints from the Father's hands.
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David,
You are correct. As God, Jesus was equal. As a servant, He was subservient. When He came, He came at the will of the Father. He came to do the Father's will. However, as God He came at His own will. Even though Jesus was God, He took of the form of a servant. There was no other way to procure our healing. In this sense, one could say that the Father was greater. But, in another sense we could also say that He was greater than Himself.
These comments indicate to us the great sacrifice that He made. Can you imagine the owner of a great company, assuming the role of a servant of that company to accomplish an even greater success for the company? Jesus took on the role of a servant to bring us to glory.
The Three are One and all equal. How could God be less than God.
On the other hand, I do agree with you that one does not need to have the understanding of the Trinity down to be saved from sin. I had a very good brother in Christ that belonged to the Oneness church. We had many discussions on the issue and I felt his understanding was such that we almost believed the same thing. In one sense I felt it was more terminology than anything that separated us. A few years ago he died of cancer. I have no doubt that he is with our Lord in heaven.
Amen.
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Very good Linda,
That is as original as it gets without being in the New Testament itself. However, you will find many that don't quite agree with everything there.
Roy
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My opinion is that we need to see each person of the Trinity to understand clearly the information that God has given us in His Word. I see understanding the Trinity as part of our *armor*. God does everything in an orderly fashion. I believe the Trinity is to show us that we need to work together as the Trinity works together. Our mind/heart, tongue and arms/legs need to work together. We as a church, need to work together, using the Trinity as a guidance.
With this concept, acting as a team, or a family, or a church...we will all grow. There are some of us here that are well studied and read, and there are some of us...not so much. If the ones of us who are not well studied, will listen to the understanding of those of us who understand better, we will all grow. The well studied and read, can learn from we who are not so well read but DO have a HEART of God.
There are some of us one the wrong page but we can get on the right page through trying to be a family. We have all kinds of personalities in here, and yet, we are part of a team.
The unity of the Trinity brings all these things to my mind. Working together with eternity in mind. Together. Forever.
David, you mentioned the church that TD Jakes is involved in and what the Lord told you when you asked about it. Jesus Christ is our focus, but one day, that same church will understand the Trinity and how it works. Like God says, He's working on it!. The first step for all of us is believing on the One Who laid down His life for us all.
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As one of those who needs a whole lot more learning, let me say a big "Amen" to the above. If we could all learn the lesson of the Trinity, there would not be much of a battle going on. The reason there is so much difficulty distinguishing between the Three is because they are so uniform in agreement.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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You know people, The one scripture that used to confuse me, was:
1 Corinthians 14:31-33
For ye may all prophesy one by one, that all may learn, and all may be comforted.
And the spirits of the prophets are subject to the prophets.
For God is not the author of confusion, but of peace, as in all churches of the saints.
But after reading a lot of these responses: [even my own] I can now understand why He is not the author of confusion.
So one sees the three as one, and others see them as three different one’s, So what difference does it make if we refer to the WORD and the Word says that the Word became flesh and dwelt amongst us,
So if the Word became flesh, who was that? God, Holy Spirit, or Christ?
And if all things were created by Him, By who, God, Holy Spirit, or Christ, or the Word?
Who’s Spirit raised Jesus from the dead? Who’s spirit raised Christ from the dead? Rom. 8:11?
And if the Word is Spirit and life; who’s Spirit is that? God, Holy Spirit, or Christ?
If the Word is dwelling in me, then who is that Word?
I read that the Word is dwelling in me,
Christ is dwelling in me,
I am the temple of God,
I am a son of God by virtue of Christ dwelling in me.
I see that I am a new creation due to the fact that Christ is in me.
So one could spend a life time trying to figure all this out, who’s on first, and what’s on second?
So if you see it one way and another sees it another way, and another can learn more by understanding it another way, what difference does it make. as long as we all make Jesus Christ as Lord and ultimate authority? Praise God!!! we all learn differently.
Am I trying to get everyone to see things my way? You be the judge!!
As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in Him; Col.2:6.
Joe
As an after thought,
I have learned one thing while in a business deal one time, to never take advice from some one more misinformed than I was; So don't take my advice as the only way, unless I advise you to seek your truths from the Word of God, He said He will lead you into all truth.
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Although the Hebrew word for “God,” ’Elohim, is plural in form (possibly to express majesty), the verb “create” is singular, indicating that God is thought of as one being.
Crossway Bibles: The ESV Study Bible. Wheaton, IL : Crossway Bibles, 2008, S. 49
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