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who did Jesus die for?
Does it make much of a difference what we believe about this?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Jenny on
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i have believed that Jesus did die for every individual, whomever would come to Him, because of the verse that says that God is not willing that any should parish, 2 Peter 3:9
But if He died for everyone, including people who will reject Him and spend eternity in hell, then this would demand that our hope lies in something other than His complete work on our behalf.
There are also many verses that point to predestined election.Part of me wonders if I should just not try to think about this stuff, since Christians have disagreed about these things for hundreds of years, and so that's why I ask if it really makes a difference what we believe about this topic.
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Permalink Reply by Colby on
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Jenny, you ask a great question here. As always, the best place to find answers to our questions is the Holy Scriptures. Let's start there. The Gospel of John addresses your question.
- "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life" (3:16).
- "Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son" (3.18).
- "For my Father's will is that everyone who looks to the Son and believes in him shall have eternal life, and I will raise him up at the last day" (6:40).
Clearly, Jesus' sacrifice on the cross was sufficient for the sins of all people who ever lived and will live. However, as the Scriptures tell us, not all people are saved. Unbelievers aren't saved. Christ's atoning sacrifice, therefore, becomes efficacious only for those that come to faith in Jesus Christ.
So did Jesus literally die for the sins of everyone, or just those of Christians (i.e., Limited Atonement)? You can find a presentation of the arguments for and against Limited Atonement here:
- CARM.org (presents for and Against) | Did Jesus die for everyone. My Calvinist friends say no.
- Xenos Christian Fellowship (Against/Arminian) | For whom did Jesus die? Evaluating Limited Atonement.
- John Piper (For/Reformed) | For whom did Christ die?
- As Christians discussing and debating this issue, each looking to the Bible for evidence to support our respective positions, we should keep in mind this old saying:
"In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and, in all things, charity."
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Permalink Reply by jen on
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I agree with Colby about looking in Scripture and that who ever comes to Him will be saved, I also like to keep in mind that Chris not only died for sin but he also died for for God.
-To display His righteousness.. You can only become righteous from the righteousness of God. Earn the righteosness of God through faith. Justified as a gift.
-Jesus died for God to demonstrate his grace. And also because you can be saved by faith and not by works also puts his grace on display.
-He died for God to confirm His consistancy and His law.
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Hello Jenny,
Let me start by saying that a topic dealing with limited atonement and the belief that Christ died to give all of mankind the possibility of salvation through the use of our liberties, is one that should NEVER keep us from enjoying fellowship with one another.
There is no reason why brothers/sisters in Christ who hold to either one of the views in question here cannot work together in harmony and love.
Both believe the following:
1. Salvation is of the Lord. By Grace (and grace alone) through faith.
2. No one comes to the son unless the Father brings them.
2. God's heart desire is for all to come to him and be saved, further more, none, not one, that come to him, will He ever turn away. So come, come to Christ we all preach and teach.
3. God uses us in the plan of salvation; hence we are to be busy sanctifying our lives through the renewing of the mind, so we can be effectively use by our Lord in the work of the kingdom, for we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus...
4. Both believe in the great commission.
5. Both believe that we must choose Christ. We must repent and receive him as Lord and savior to be born again.
There are variations within the belief systems, theologically, but apart from those who fall into extremes, most believe extremely similar, so we can love one another and discuss these issues in love and remaining civilized.
Of course civilize, until sister Char joins in - hahaha J/K :)
I must also say that unfortunately this topic has in the past been one of those topics that constitute a HOT TOPIC. A hot topic is one where the participants tend to argue (argue with the negative connotation) rather than argue, with the positive meaning of the word, so I would asked that we be extra generous with our love for one another.
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Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on
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Hi Jenny,
As usual......you have introduced a real deep, thought-provoking subject here...........thank you.
And Colby, you've got the ball rollin' in good fashion, as you usually do.........thank you.
As Jesus was breathing the last of His human breaths on the cross......He said, "Father forgive them, for they know not what they do".
So, did God forgive them? Let's check requirements of Scripture that list what's needed for redemption:
(1.) Colby's two references in John, Chapter 3.
(2.) "Repent, and be baptized every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit." (Acts 2:38).
(3.) .....that if you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart that God has raised Him from the dead, you will be saved." (Romans 10:9).
Obviously, His crucifiers would have to change from...."not knowing"...to "knowing" Jesus... to be forgiven.
And some other thoughts -
(4.)) A comparison of having a "Get out of Jail Free" card in Monopoly....and never using it....staying in jail the whole game -
That's like Jesus at the tip of your heart....never cashing in His power...never knowing freedom and the truth...for your whole life.
(5.) Consider two newly-weds receiving The Greatest Gift The World Has Ever Known...... a toaster.
They smile....and say,"Maybe we'll use this some day". Maybe they will...and maybe they won't.
That's like people reading, and thinking about John 3:16. Do they receive the Gift? maybe they do...and maybe they don't.
Therefore, Jenny, I would say that Jesus died on the cross, and paid the sin-debt of the world for............"whosoever will"..........
Grace and Peace.
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Jenny,
I want to acknowledge and commend David, Jen and Richard for posting helpful contributions to this discussion, which are grounded in the Holy Scriptures.
To sum up my earlier response, my position is simply this: Christ’s death was sufficient for all, but efficient only for those that come to a saving faith in Christ.
Colby
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Permalink Reply by Tammy on
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I haven't read the replies so someone else may have already quoted this: John 3:16 For God so loved the WORLD that He gave His only begotten Son......
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Tammy,
Check these vids out just for fun. They are very short. Tell me what you think about them.
All are welcome to view them and comment as well. They are only 10 minute vids. :)
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Permalink Reply by Bill Smith on
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We read in Romans ch.8:29 "for those God foreknew He also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of His Son, that He might be the firstborn among many brothers." It then goes on to speak of other fruit of God's grace.
Question... Who are those God 'foreknew?' Is it possible anyone has been born whom God did not know before the event? I don't believe anyone has ever been born who got in under God's radar. Thus these words tell me that God, in His knowledge of every living person has determined before we were born that we should be conformed to Jesus. There are many scriptures which support this, as there are others which seem to negate it.
I love the old thought that over the door into God's Kingdom are the words "whoever will". On the inside of the door it reads "I chose you."
What is most important to me is not the doctrinal/theological process, but the reality of people receiving Jesus as Saviour and Lord through the revelation of preached good news.
"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.How then can they call on the One they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the One of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can they preach unless they are sent? As it is written' how beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news ?' " Romans 10:13-15.
Who has beautiful feet?
Blessings.
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>>Who has beautiful feet?
:)
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