All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
What is love?
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Dear LB,
Those teaching that salvation can be lost use Old Testament passages at times to back up that erroneous teaching, which should not be done. God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but how He deals with His people changes according to His good pleasure and the covenants He establishes. Michael's comment above is correct and you’re partially correct.
>>Christians keep debating this subject because some believe the Bible and some believe half-truths
While you comment above may be true for some, the topic has not been dated since the church started because of that reason alone. The major reason the topic has been debated and the reason why i have been on both sides of the issue like many others, now fully convince that once saved we are save for ever, is because there seems to be scripture that backs up both stances. We know scripture cannot teach both, so we are force to interpret the not so clear verses with the ones that are very clear.
The Word of God plainly teaches that God will keep us unto salvation regardless of our rebelliousness as His children. Our salvation is not to be a one sided one or passive, the process of Sanctification and our growing in faith, holiness, grace and maturity is to be continuous until we see him face to face.
I can give you an impressive list of verses that clearly teach that we are His and He will keep us, that once regenerated, justified and sealed, is a done deal. Again I refer you to the previous discussion (http://www.allaboutgod.net/forum/topics/losing-salvation ) on the subject or you can start a new discussion if you would like and I would gladly join in to give you the right interpretation of the verses you take as teaching we can lose our salvation, while keeping the verses in context and harmonizing them perfectly to the rest of scripture.
The famous statement: “we can walk away from God is half right." Yes we can, but only as far as God allows and for only as long as God allows it. You and I have been bought and no longer belong to ourselves. We are God’s property. Before you were saved your Free will, which is extremely over rated was enslaved to your sinful nature and you were in enmity with God. Once you are saved you are no longer your own. You weren’t your own even before. The clay belongs to the potter and HE IS FREE, HE HAS FREE WILL, UNLIKE US, WHO HAVE LIMITED FREE WILL, WHICH IS DRIVEN BY OUR STRONGEST INCLINATIONS, TO DO WITH THE CLAY ACCORDING TO HIS GOOD PLEASURE.
Who can resist His will scripture teaches not that He is limited by our will. Yes, God has given us liberties and the ability to choose, but never in scripture is it taught that God will not break our will on the contrary and to our benefit we find case after case where God breaks the will of whoever He wants. You can attest to God, I am sure, of doing it in your own life by not allowing something that you wanted to happened, to happen. God stepped in and said, I don’t think so. That my sister is intervening with your will, or boldly stated, breaking your will, so His will may be done. Parents do it all the time with kids. God Is a good father, He does it for us as well.
1 Peter 1:18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your forefathers,
You were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body. 1 Corinthians 6:20
Romans 5:10 For if, when we were God's enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!
19Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Romans 9
That is a rhetorical question. No one can resist the will of God. if you belong to Him and like Jonah decide to do your own thing and ignore Him, He may allow you to live a sorry Christian life, but He can also put you on the belly of the fish and break you until we scream out, Ok Lord I surrender, your will be done, not mine. Oh our God is good, because He is not a dictator, what He wants for us is best, we are just a bunch of rebellious kids and He pastors His sheep. Sometimes with the staff and others with the rod.how shall we escape if we ignore such a great salvation? This salvation, which was first announced by the Lord, was confirmed to us by those who heard him. Hebrews 2:3
LB tell me what the verse is taking about in context. Don’t take is out of context to back up your erroneous belief about salivation or how you been taught to interpret it. Who was Paul taking to (or whoever wrote Hebrews), who was his intended audience at the time of the writing and what was he teaching them? Was he talking to folks who are saved already or to those who may be looking to be saved by a different way apart from Christ.
For if the Law given through angels could not have been received with contempt, and if its transgression was visited with severe punishment, what is to happen, he asks, to the despisers of that gospel, which has the Son of God as its author, and was confirmed by so many miracles? The import of the whole is this, that the higher the dignity of Christ is than that of angels, the more reverence is due to the Gospel than to the Law
>>this is not an insignificant point of disagreement, but it is the difference between heaven and hell!!
You are convinced you are right and I am trying to persuade you to see the right interpretation of scripture. You were not taught correctly and if you tell me, well the Holy Spirit is the one who has taught me, sis, the Holy Spirit has not taught you that. I know that seems insulting and arrogant of me to say, but I love you with the truth and will not pad you on the back and tell you have a nice day and let you continue to believe error. I do pray you have a teachable Spirit. You know how many times I thought the Holy Spirit taught me something only to find out as I kept studying in the quite hours of the morning that I had misunderstood or misinterpreted a passage. People who tell me the Holy Spirit is the one who reveal that to me, ok great, He is our teacher and the one that leads us to all truth, but have you got it wrong before, did you think you had something that the Holy Spirit had revealed to you only to later find out that you made a mistake and that was not the Holy Spirit giving you that interpretation, now it was the Holy Spirit who corrected you, but not the Holy Spirit who led you to believe erroneously. This is not a topic between heaven and hell, this is a secondary issue, a very important one. Those who believe as you do are slaves to performance salvation, which is an insult to the sacrifice of our Lord. Those that believe as scripture teaches have entered the rest of Hebrews 3 and 4.
8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast. 10 For we are God’s workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do. Ephesians 2
>>Matthew 10:22-28 "These twelve [the 12 Apostles] Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying...Behold, I send you forth as sheep in the midst of wolves: be ye therefore wise as serpents, and harmless as doves....And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
The above verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. Nothing at all. You are reading the man made erroneous fear packed teaching of losing salvation into those verses. Explain to me how those verses are teaching one can lose salvation please.From your wiritngs and from the decernment of the Holy Spirit I see you as a mature Chritian, a very beautiful one my sis, so I take the liberty to speak to you as such. I would not approach others in the family as I am approching you, but I have a feeling you appreciate directness and doctrinal correction.
Blessings beloved in the Lord.
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One last thought for now LB,
I wrote these on another tread and got some interesting responses. Forget the "once save always saved" and the "one can lose salvation" arguments.
Do you actually believe you will ever be able to turn from your Lord? He has become everything to you. He saved you. He saved you. You did not seek Him, He sought you. Did your Lord know you before the foundations of the Earth? Did your King know that you would be born and one day He would save you, only to have you through your "free will" walk away from Him?.The sister I asked these questions to said that in the past she had walked away, but the fact that she is now faithfully serving Him shows that God is faithful and able to keep us.
Does He show us how powerful and Glorious He is by allowing the clay to determine their destiny? Or does He receive Glory for saving us despite our rebelliousness?
Can you walk away from your owner? Can anything else on this earth make you more joyful? What would you exchange Him for? Can a man be more pleasing to you? Can drugs make you fall in love as He has?
Can you dance with demons after dancing in tears of Joy with your Lord?
Can you walk away from Him? Who chose who? Who is God? Did He know you? Did He know what He was doing? Are you able to frustrate His purposes?
Can your free will overcome God's election of you? You do know you are chosen don't you? You do know you are His child, don't you?The sis that I asked this question said that her free will could overcome God's election of her, but what do I do with Romans 8:29-31
Romans 8:29-31 (King James Version)
29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us.
Those God calls He justifies, those He justified He will glorified. Should I add to this my own erroneous teaching and say - only if they want to be Glorified. Our will overcoming God's will hahahahahaah that is funny and not in a good way.
Can our human’s examples of an Earthly father do justice to the God of Glory? Who wins in your life, God or your will?
Can you forget about the one that gave you new life? Is your free will stronger than God's purposes?
I KNOW ENOUGH, FROM YOUR PROFILE AND YOU POSTS, ABOUT YOU TO KNOW 100% THAT YOU WOULD NEVER TURN FROM GOD AND IF YOU EVER (MAY IT NEVER BE) DID FALL INTO HABITUAL SIN, YOU WOULD WITH YOUR FACE ON THE DUST BEG YOUR KING FOR FORGIVENESS. YOU WOULD NEVER BE ABLE TO LIVE WITHOUT HIM, SO HOW CAN YOU BELIEVE THAT YOU CAN LOSE YOUR SALVATION?
Love you sis and I care about you and that you believe the truth.
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Permalink Reply by Sarah Gardener on
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What to do with 2 Peter 2:17-22?
Verse 20:
If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning.
Clearly teaching that they have become entangled in the corruption of the world again and they are in a worse state than at the beginning.
Wesley says this:
2Pe 2:20 For if after they - Who are thus ensnared. Have escaped the pollutions of the world - The sins which pollute all who know not God. Through the knowledge of Christ - That is, through faith in him, 2Pe_1:3. They are again entangled therein, and overcome, their last state is worse than the first - More inexcusable, and causing a greater damnation.
I know this applies to false teachers but are not also those who LISTEN TO THEM and follow after them at risk of the warning here in scripture.
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Blessings
Linda Ruth
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Linda,
Wesley is a tremendous asset to the body of Christ. the man was a blessing but his teaching on loosing salvation are not aligned with scripture.
Neither 2 Peter 2:20 Are teaching we can lose our salvation. Those who have been taught that doctrine read it into the verses, but when we look at them in context without preconceived notions, we clearly see different.
1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute.
Scripture does not teach they will lose their salvation. 2 Peter 2:20 is not talking about the born again but about the false teachers who Peter here points out that at some point these false teachers and their followers wanted to escape the moral contamination of the world system and sought religion, even Jesus Christ, but on their terms as we see on verse 1 above. They were not truly converted to Christ. They heard the true gospel and moved toward it, but then rejected the Christ of that gospel. That is apostasy, like the people described in Heb. 10:26-27. Their last state is worst than their first for they have neglected the only way given to mankind with which to be saved.
Verse 20:
2Pe 2:20 For if after they - Who are thus ensnared. Have escaped the pollutions of the world - The sins which pollute all who know not God. Through the knowledge of Christ - That is, through faith in him,
But since you gave me Wesly, I will give you Calvin :)
20. For if after. He again shews how pernicious was the sect which led men consecrated to God back again to their old filth and the corruptions of the world. And he exhibits the heinousness of the evil by a comparison; for it was no common sin to depart from the holy doctrine of God. It would have been better for them, he says, not to have known the way of righteousness; for though there is no excuse for ignorance, yet the servant who knowingly and wilfully despises the commands of his lord, deserves a twofold punishment. There was besides ingratitude, because they wilfully extinguished the light of God, rejected the favor conferred on them, and having shaken off the yoke, became perversely wanton against God; yea, as far as they could, they profaned and abrogated the inviolable covenant of God, which had been ratified by the blood of Christ. The more earnest then ought we to be, to advance humbly and carefully in the course of our calling. We must now consider each sentence.
By naming the pollutions of the world, he shews that we roll in filth and are wholly polluted, until we renounce the world. By the knowledge of Christ he no doubt understands the gospel. He testifies that the design of it is, to deliver us from the defilements of the world, and to lead us far away from them. For the same reason he afterwards calls it the way of righteousness. He then alone makes a right progress in the gospel who faithfully learns Christ; and he truly knows Christ, who has been taught by him to put off the old man and to put on the new man, as Paul reminds us in Ephesians 4:22 [174]
21. By saying that having forsaken the commandment delivered unto them, they returned to their own pollutions, he intimates first, how inexcusable they were; and secondly, he reminds us that the doctrine of a holy and virtuous life, though common to all and indiscriminately belonging to all, is yet peculiarly taught to those whom God favors with the light of his gospel. But he declares that they who make themselves slaves again to the pollutions of the world fall away from the gospel. The faithful also do indeed sin; but as they allow not dominion to sin, they do not fall away from the grace of God, nor do they renounce the profession of sound doctrine which they have once embraced. For they are not to be deemed conquered, while they strenuously resist the flesh and its lusts.
22. But it has happened unto them. As the example disturbs many, when men who had submitted to the obedience of Christ, rush headlong into vices without fear or shame, the Apostle, in order to remove the offense, says that this happens through their own fault, and that because they are pigs and dogs. It hence follows that no part of the sin can be ascribed to the gospel.
For this purpose he quotes two ancient proverbs, the first of which is found as the saying of Solomon in Proverbs 26:11. But what Peter meant is briefly this, that the gospel is a medicine which purges us by wholesome vomiting, but that there are many dogs who swallow again what they have vomited to their own ruin; and that the gospel is also a laver which cleanses all our uncleanness, but that there are many swine who, immediately after washing, roll themselves again in the mud. At the same time the godly are reminded to take heed to themselves, except they wish to be deemed dogs or swine.
Blessings sis.
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Totally disagree:
(2 Peter 2:20-21 NIV) If they have escaped the corruption of the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ and are again entangled in it and overcome, they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. [21] It would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them.
When you look at this verse you have three choices:
(1) That it refers to people who heard the gospel but rejected it, did not ever accept Jesus Christ as their savior. I think that is wrong, because it says if they are "again" entangled. To be entangled again, would mean you were free from it at one point.
(2) That these people are true Christians and never fall back under judgment. I don't see how that can be true, since there is no way that losing rewards or even chastisement by the Lord would ever be "worse" than not having been saved in the first place.
(3) That this refers to people who have truly accepted Christ Jesus as their Savior and then due to their own actions and falling back into a sinful life and thereby eventually totally walking away from their faith are lost. Since those who go to hell will be judged on what they knew and what they did with that knowledge, it would be better if they had never known because their punishment will be much harsher due to the knowledge they had.
I think number 3 is the only legitimate interpretation of this passage. All else is erroneous and a false teaching in my opinion.
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Linda,
We have examples of people in the word who cleaned themselves, matter of fact we have examples of it in our churches today of people who are like white tomb stones, very clean in the outside and all those around think of them as awesome Christians, but they are full of dead bones inside.
You are free to believe as you do and i fully and totally disagree with your interpretation of scripture here. I can place many verses and examples (Judas being the chief example) of folks who appeared to be saved and were not. They certainly walked differently and they knew the lingo and the truth intellectually but not spiritually.
1 John 2:19 New International Version (©1984)
They went out from us, but they did not really belong to us. For if they had belonged to us, they would have remained with us; but their going showed that none of them belonged to us.Matthew 7:23 New International Version (©1984)
Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'
The word of God does not teach s regenerated person can lose their salvation.
We have resurrected and old topic and i think at this point i need to apologize to Mosoga, the author of this discussion because i have contribute in departing from the original intent of the tread.
Sorry bro Mosoga. I would suggest anyone interested on studying the topic of losing salvation further should start a discussion with that purpose. We some great ones on file, but we do not mind revisiting the topic again, at least i don't.
Blessings family.
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Well according to the verse that you put up in Matthew 7:23 and the verses before and after - not just plucking one verse out to suit our belief - there will be many people, including maybe even yourself, who wont know until Jesus separates the sheep and the goats as they approach him and say, "Lord Lord" in a vain attempt to prove they were His and doing His will but verse 23 teaches that it was lawlessness that proved their demise - iniquity being lawlessness in the greek.
So how can you say you have assurance David when your very own teaching nullifies that by you saying that there are people in the word who cleaned themselves, matter of fact we have examples of it our churches today who are like white tomb stones, very clean in the outside and all those around think of them as awesome Christians, but they are full of dead bones inside. How do I know that you or I are not one of those David?
So you could appear to be saved but are you or I?
If you are one of His you will remain in Him. His sheep hear His voice and listen and obey and thus they can not be sent away due to lawlessness.
You are free to believe as you do to David - your free will.
Dear Piet,
I do also apologise if I have taken this discussion off course. God's richest blessing to you brother!
Linda Ruth
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Dear Linda,
>>including maybe even yourself, who wont know until Jesus separates the sheep and the goats as they approach him and say, "Lord Lord" in a vain attempt to prove they were His and doing His will but verse 23 teaches that it was lawlessness that proved their demise - iniquity being lawlessness in the greek.
If there is something that I am sure of is that I belong to Christ. I know that I know, that I know, that I know, that I know that I am his. I am not the same David that I use to be. God is my all, what I do I try to do for His glory and not to for recognition etc... I am 1 billion % sure that I will be with my Lord, because His Spirit confirms it to me. I do not think that was the case with the people who are deceive that their performance (as the Pharisees) is what makes them acceptable to God.
Among other things true repentance begins with knowledge of sin. The eyes of the penitent man are opened. He sees with dismay and confusion the length and breadth of God's holy law, and the extent, the enormous extent, of his own transgressions. He discovers, to his surprise, that in thinking himself a "good sort of man," and a man with a "good heart," he has been under a huge delusion. He finds out that, in reality, he is wicked, and guilty, and corrupt, and bad in God's sight. His pride breaks down. His high thoughts melt away. He sees that he is neither more nor less than a great sinner. This is the first step in true repentance.
The bible teaches that we can have assurance of our salvation and looking at Matthew 7 and the surrounding verses we are not taught that we can't know if we aresaved or that we will only know until we are face to face with Christ. That is not what the chapter is teaching. Rather Jesus had just got through talking about false prophets.
15 “Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.
True and False Disciples
21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name and in your name drive out demons and in your name perform many miracles?’ 23 Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
>>So how can you say you have assurance David when your very own teaching nullifies that by you saying that there are people in the word who cleaned themselves, matter of fact we have examples of it our churches today who are like white tomb stones, very clean in the outside and all those around think of them as awesome Christians, but they are full of dead bones inside. How do I know that you or I are not one of those David?
"So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh to live according to the flesh -- for if you are living according to the flesh you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the flesh, you will live. For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God. For you have not received a spirit of slavery leading to fear again, but you have received a spirit of adoption as sons by which we cry out, 'Abba! Father!' The Spirit Himself bears witness with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him that we may indeed be glorified with Him." (Romans 8:12-17).The bible does not teach that we can't have assurance nor was I teaching that up above, that is what you read into it, but I said there are those who were deceived. I am not deceived, nor do I depend on my works to know God loves me. My works are automatically produced as I abide in Christ. If I stop abiding in Christ I am not tossed away like an old rug. I am corrected by a loving father.
"...for you have been born again, not of seed which is perishable, but imperishable, that is, through the living and abiding word of God." (1 Peter 1:23). -
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David,
If the sweet voice of His Spirit tells you then AMEN (may it be so) - you believe it for I know the voice of my Shepherd and know as you stated that He does assure. I have received in words of knowledge and in dreams assurance but I heed the warnings of scriptures with reverence and would be negligent if I did not warn my brother or sister of the dangers of mocking God by continuing in sin.
I have seen brothers and sisters fall away David and then turn around and mock my Savior - this is heartbreaking to say the least - my heart breaks for them for I believe they are forfeiting the great gift - even trampling it down now. I know you would believe that they were never a believer in the first place but for all intensive purposes they did appear to be to me. So how can we tell? The word says BY THEIR FRUIT but not if your heading down the same road as them - the fruit looks normal because it is the same fruit that you are exhibiting. Only the light of the Holy Spirit and the Word can illuminate the fruit and show the grub thats safely snug inside causing the fruit to rot inside and eventually out. Not easily discernable at first but then very obvious later.
Two weeks ago we had a lovely pumpkin sitting in the fruit bowl. Looked good but I noticed a strange whistling noise and could not pin down where it was coming from. Eventually I realised it was the pumpkin and on closer inspection I could see foam oozing up from a small hole. I picked the pumpkin up and took it outside and threw it on the ground. It broke apart, was all rotten inside and totally eaten out by whatever was infesting it. The birds would not even touch it.
My point is - it sat there for a long time looking like the perfect fruit or veg - I could not see inside it to know it was rotten - it wasn't until it got real bad (the noise and the foam) that I could discern its rottenness. This reminds me of the wheat and the tares. Apparently the tares can look much like the wheat - so I have heard. Thus in the parable I believe the wheat and the tares grow up until the harvest when it is then separated indicating to me that we will not know until the end who will and who will not be saved into the garner as the Lord of the harvest can truly SEE or KNOW who is and who is not. Who has listened to the Shepherd and obeyed or followed after another deceiving voice.
Watch your life and doctrine closely.
Blessings
Linda Ruth
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Linda,
Who among us would have thought that the son of perdition was not saved?
Not one of us. We all would have thought Judas was saved, but he wasn't. There was a man here who sounded like he had accepted Christ and many thought he had, but he later revealed that he was an atheist looking to fool Christians. God's Spirit NEVER gave me confirmation that that man was saved. Many were fooled.
I don't know about anyone else's salvation 100%, but I do know about mine and I do get confirmation from the Spirit also about who is saved and who is not. I of course could be wrong or be deceived by someone who walks the walk and talks the talk, but is very difficult to do. As a minister of the Gospel and being active in ministry for 16 years the Spirit has always confirmed in me correctly. When I meet people on skid road and they are beat up by the sin they have fallen into, but the Spirit tells me this is my son remind him of my love and I tell him (for God's glory here, you guys know I hardly talk about what I do, for I firmly believe that that is between us and the lord, but maybe someone can use the tactic) look I will give you 5 bucks for food, but you have to listen to me for a couple of minutes and let me pray for you. As I start talking to them about the Love of the Lord some become undone and start weeping because they tell me that they once abided in Christ and I remind them that the father’s arms are wide open, because they are.
I have also met some at church who most folks would consider a good brother, but Christ's Spirit tells me to confront them about their salvation and how do they know they are saved. As we engage in conversation they tell me that they confess a prayer, but nothing really happened and they are in church because is one of the things one must do to be saved etc... it is confirmed by the exchanges that they are not saved, someone told them pray this and you are saved and they did, but God did not honored that superficial confession which did not have a contrite heart with it. Some preachers do not evern touch on the fact tha people must repent now this days, is mainly about believe and confess, horrible stuff. Anyways I get busy in teahcing those folks true repentance, some see their need to repent and testified that they were going through the motions only, while others never get it. Know I do this understanding that I am not God and do not know their heart or mind, so i understand that i may be worng about what i think the Spirit confirmed in me.
>>I know you would believe that they were never a believer in the first place but for all intensive purposes they did appear to be to me.
Each case is independent and must be treated at such with the guidance of the Spirit. So maybe some are saved and are deceived for a time (a short time or a very long time), but their master is able to make them stand.
To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand. Romans 14:4
To make him stand, not God will respect his will and God will not break his will or only if the person permits God, God will make him stand. God can use someone like the one you described , who went off to do their own thing for a time . God can turn everything around for His glory. He can be use to teach others not to fall for the okey dokey.
Blessings.
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God does not change? True? Same in the Old as He is in the New:
Mal 3:6 For I, Jehovah, change not. Because of this, you sons of Jacob are not destroyed.
Is not Israel a lesson for us (Romans 11). In that He did not spare the natural branches.
This is the dilemma I have - look at these scriptures and the corresponding hebrew/greek words keeping in mind that God does not change:
Pro 8:17 I love those who love me, and those who seek me early find me.
Lev 20:23 And you shall not walk in the statutes of the nation which I am casting out from before you, for all these they have done, and I am disgusted with them.
Disgusted is the word abhorred:
H6973
קוּץ
qûts
koots
A primitive root (rather identical with H6972 through the idea of severing oneself from (compare H6962)); to be (causatively make) disgusted or anxious: - abhor, be distressed, be grieved, loathe, vex, be weary.
Noting 6972 - to clip off and 6962 - to cut off and to DETEST!
Lev 26:14 And if you will not listen to Me, and do not do all these commands;
Lev 26:15 and if you reject My statutes, and if your soul hates My judgments, so as not to do all My commands, to the breaking of My covenant;
Lev 26:16 I will also do this to you, and I shall appoint terror over you, the wasting, and the burning fever, destroying the eyes, and consuming the soul; and you shall sow your seed in vain, and your enemies will eat it.
Lev 26:17 And I shall set My face against you, and you shall be smitten before your enemies; and those who hate you shall rule over you, and you shall flee, and there will be no one pursuing you.
Lev 26:18 And if after these things you will not listen to Me, then I will chastise you seven times more for your sin;
Lev 26:19 and I will break the pride of your strength, and will make your heavens as iron, and your earth as bronze;
Lev 26:20 and your strength shall be consumed in vain, and your land shall not give her produce, and the tree of the land shall not give its fruit.
Lev 26:21 And if you walk contrary to Me, and are not willing to listen to Me, then I will bring seven times more plagues on you according to your sins,
Lev 26:22 and send against you the beast of the field, and it shall bereave you. And I shall cut off your livestock and shall make you few, so that your ways are desolate.
Lev 26:23 And if you are not chastised by Me by these things, and shall walk contrary to Me,
Lev 26:24 then I, I also, shall walk contrary to you, and shall smite you, even I, seven times more for your sins;
Lev 26:25 and I will bring a sword on you, executing the vengeance of the covenant, and you shall be gathered to your cities, and I shall send pestilence into your midst; and you shall be given into the hand of an enemy.
Lev 26:26 When I break to you the staff of bread, ten women shall bake your bread in one oven, and shall give back your bread by weight; and you shall eat, and shall not be satisfied.
Lev 26:27 If you will not listen to Me for this, and shall walk contrary to Me,
Lev 26:28 then I also will walk contrary to you in fury. I also will chastise you, I also, seven times for your sins.
Lev 26:29 And you shall eat of the flesh of your sons, and you shall eat of the flesh of your daughters.
Lev 26:30 And I shall destroy your high places and cut down your altars, and shall put your dead bodies on the carcasses of your idols. And My soul shall loathe you.
Note my soul shall loathe you:
H1602
גּעל
gâ‛al
gaw-al'
A primitive root; to detest; by implication to reject: - abhor, fail, lothe, vilely cast away.
Deu 18:12 For all doing these things are an abomination to Jehovah. And because of these filthy acts Jehovah your God is dispossessing these nations before you.
Abomination:
H8441
תּעבה תּועבה
tô‛êbah tô‛êbah
to-ay-baw', to-ay-baw'
Feminine active participle of H8581; properly something disgusting (morally), that is, (as noun) an abhorrence; especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol: - abominable (custom, thing), abomination.
From a root meaning to loathe - hate!
Deu 25:16 For anyone doing these things is hateful to Jehovah your God, everyone doing unrighteously.
Again an abomination and hate!
Deu 28:62 And you shall be left few in number, whereas you were as the stars of the heavens for multitude, because you would not obey the voice of Jehovah your God.
Deu 28:63 And it shall be, as Jehovah rejoiced over you to do you good, and to multiply you, so Jehovah shall rejoice over you to destroy you, and to lay you waste. And you shall be plucked from the land you are going to possess.
Here we have God rejoicing over you to destroy you for lack of obedience!
Deu 32:16 With strange gods they moved Him to jealousy; and with idols they provoked Him to anger.
Deu 32:17 They sacrificed to demons who were not God, to gods whom they did not know, new ones who came lately. Your fathers had not dreaded them.
Deu 32:18 You forgot the Rock that brought you into being and ceased to care for God who formed you.
Deu 32:19 And Jehovah looked and despised them because of the provocation of His sons and of His daughters.
Deu 32:20 And He said, I will hide My face from them; I will see what their end will be; for they are a perverse generation, sons in whom is no faithfulness.
He abhors them again.
There are many scriptures:
Psalm 2:4-9
Psalm 5:5-6
Psalm 7:11-13
Psalm 10:3
Psalm 11:5-7
Psalm 50:22
Psalm 78:59
Psalm 106:40
Proverbs 3:32-33
Proverbs 6:16-19
Proverbs 16:5
Proverbs 17:5
Jeremiah 17:5
Hosea 9:15
Malachi 1:3-4 - reference to Esau
Romans 9:13
1 Corin 16:22
James 4:4
1 Peter 3:12
Revelation 14:10-11
Then there is the testimony of the church fathers:
AUGUSTINE (354-430, Bishop of Hippo): “For it may be that GOD HATES A PERSON to the degree more mildly, as not to destroy him, but whom He destroys HE HATES THE MORE EXCEEDINGLY, by how much He punishes more severely. Now HE HATETH ALL WHO WORK INIQUITY: but all who speak lies He also destroys.” (Nicene and Post-Nicene Fathers, Vol.3, p.462)
JOHN WESLEY (1703-1791, founder of Methodism): “But as for the wicked, GOD HATES THEM, and will feverishly punish them.” (Explanatory Notes Upon the Old Testament, Vol.2, p.1639)
JONATHAN EDWARDS: “The God that holds you over the pit of hell, much in the same way one holds a spider, or some loathsome insect, over the fire, ABHORS YOU, and is dreadfully provoked: His wrath towards you burns like fire: He looks upon you as worthy of nothing else but to be cast into the fire: He is of purer eyes than to bear to have you in His sight: you are ten thousand times more ABOMINABLE in His sight than the most hateful venomous serpent is in ours.” (Sinners In the Hands of an Angry God, July 8, 1741)
CHARLES G. FINNEY: “The very thing that God hates and disapproves is not the mere event - the thing done in distinction
from the doer; but it is the doer himself. It grieves and displeases God that a rational moral agent under His government should array himself against his own God and Father, against all that is right and just in the universe. This is the thing that offends God. The sinner himself is the direct and only object of His anger.” (The Guilt of Sin, pp.84-85)
These scriptures and the testimony of the church fathers beg to differ that God does abhor/destest hate the sinner.
Can you see my dilemma?
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Linda,
Your dilemma as I see it is that you see God as either or. He either loves or He hates the individual. I see it as God is capable of expressing both. He is love and that cannot change. He has love for all He has created and at the same time He can experince hate as expressed in Scripture. One does not negate the other. He does not cease to be love or cease to act in love even when He expresses hate towards someone or something. The point again is that we misunderstand hate, and probably love too. One has to start with the understanding that God is love and all else flows from that state of being.
This is not rose colored glasses, but simply identifying Who God is and understanding that He cannot act except in accordance with His attributes, of which love is one. To think otherwise changes God and puts love as simply an emotion which it is not.
Lord Bless,
LT
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