All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
What is Free Will?
How free are we before Christ?
How free are we when we are born again?
What does the secular world believe free will is?
How do we reconcile humanities ability to choose according to the liberties granted to us by God against Sovereignty?
What have some of the most brilliant/holy Christians throughout history believed about this topic?
What does the bible teach when we see both truths/facts in scripture colliding without creating a mess, but a beautiful reality, as seen in:
4 Then Joseph said to his brothers, “Come close to me.” When they had done so, he said, “I am your brother Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt! 5 And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. 6 For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will be no plowing and reaping. 7 But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance.[a]
8 “So then, it was not you who sent me here, but God. He made me father to Pharaoh, lord of his entire household and ruler of all Egypt. 9 Now hurry back to my father and say to him, ‘This is what your son Joseph says: God has made me lord of all Egypt. Come down to me; don’t delay. 10 You shall live in the region of Goshen and be near me—you, your children and grandchildren, your flocks and herds, and all you have. 11 I will provide for you there, because five years of famine are still to come. Otherwise you and your household and all who belong to you will become destitute.’ Genesis 45
If you Google "free will" you will get 72 pages of information, yet the majority of us throw the word around without even considering what we are really saying, but the word merits consideration.
I am neither Calvinist nor Arminian, I am extremely familiar with both theological schools. I do love Reformed Theology but above all I adore the word of God and I am a student of it. If you want to label me you will not offend me, yet like most I enjoy simply being known as a born again Christian rather than by manmade titles that tend to fall into extremes and cause divisions among us.
Love to you family.
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Dvid,
Amanda is actually stating my case, in part, better than I can.
Instead of a question, I will state my case in the form of a comment.
What I believe about faith is that the measure of faith is given to all men, not just believers. A person uses that faith to be drawn to God by the Holy Spirit. Even a child has faith, yet they probably are not born again. Your children have faith in you. My children have faith in me.
A baby cries to tell the mom he needs feeding, and he cries, knowing the mom will do exactly that. That is faith in my book.
Where we go wrong is thinking that God selected only certain people to be saved. Yet the Bible says that God desires all to be saved. We speak of the foreknowledge of God and the election of God and yet we really don't have the right to even discuss either of these things as we can't possibly have a clear understanding of them because we don't know exactly what God thinks. Only what is spoken to us through His Word.
If God desires that all men be saved, how can He possibly select His children through the writer's method of understanding the two words.
God desires all men to be saved and come unto the knowledge of the truth. That requires faith to believe what the Bible says.
Sorry to be disagreeable but once again, I really don't believe that particular article.
Blessings,
Rita
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Beloved Rita,
If you can show me with the bible that God gives every human being a measure of faith, I have no problem changing my view to your understanding. The word of God does not teach that. Romans 12, as scripture has helped us to interpret scripture correctly with the immediate context the verse is found in, we can clearly see that God is directing himself to his people, his church, his saints and not the world.
Scripture states that every man that comes into the world is given light, but not faith.
John 1
6There came a man who was sent from God; his name was John. 7He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all men might believe. 8He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light. 9The true light that gives light to every man was coming into the world.
Rita you would better make your biblical opinion by stating that all men experience the conviction of the Holy Spirit and then act accordingly to their choices and that the conviction comes in different ways. God does this through our conscience.
Trusting a parent is very far from having biblical faith. Hebrews 11:1 states what faith is, the unbelieving world has no idea what biblical faith is, nor do they have it. The natural man cannot understand the things of the Spirit.
>>Where we go wrong is thinking that God selected only certain people to be saved. Yet the Bible says that God desires all to be saved.
I have dealt with your statement in detail in this discussion: WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM. http://www.allaboutgod.net/group/theologygroup/forum/topics/what-is...
I will not deal with it in open forum because the topic is a very hot one and it causes too much division among us. But anyone wishing to discuss it, please join my Theology Group and we can have some fun. We all have biblical opinions, but we should learn to back them up with the word of God family.
>>We speak of the foreknowledge of God and the election of God and yet we really don't have the right to even discuss either of these things as we can't possibly have a clear understanding of them because we don't know exactly what God thinks. Only what is spoken to us through His Word.
I strongly disagree with your statement sis - God has revealed himself to us through His word. The problem is that people do not study deeply such things. Most (not talking about you directly here, only you would know if this is the case with you or not) have been taught one way to interpret scripture and given verses that at first glance appear to make sense and back us such teachings. However there are millions of born again children of God who have been taught a different interpretation of the same verses. Both of them can be wrong but they both cannot be right. Only one interpretation is correct. Most folks will NEVER look deeply into why others interpret scripture as they do and will fight their interpretation of it until they die, without ever investing in serious study. We can all be sincerely wrong. There are others who take the time to pray fully study All or many of the different views out there and then through years of study and guidance of the Spirit (a teachable spirit) come to a true understanding that harmonizes with the whole of scripture. It is work, but what a joyous work it is. Wow, the most beautiful work on the face of the earth.
>>If God desires that all men be saved, how can He possibly select His children through the writer's method of understanding the two words.
We all desire many things, but desire is not decretive will or revealed will, but only the Will of disposition, which describes God's attitude or disposition. It reveals what is pleasing to Him.
Rita your opinion is base mainly on opinion without using God's word to back it up. That is dangerous my sister and friend. I love you dearly and do not seek to embarrass you or fight with you, but simply seek to edify you. I have no doubt you are a woman of Faith and that you love God with all your soul, strength and spirit.Blessings and love to you
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Ama-
There are erroneous interpretations of scripture and there are personal opinions of scripture. The statement you are quoting from my post was directed at the personal opinions of scripture and not the erroneous interpretation of it, which I tried to point out as well.
Beloved I will not be made to feel bad, because I love to teach. It is what my Lord has called me to do. I am blessed to do it. I love you guys enough to even appear to some, to you, as arrogant or prideful for doing it. I know there are many ways to go about communicating the truth of God. This is how I do it. If you are trying to make a point that I could be more gentle or ___________? Fill in the blank, I get that, but I have never said I know it all or that I am no longer growing. I am forever teaching, that is what I was born to do, here I am teaching that no teacher should feel bad about teaching truth even if the recipients of that truth get hurt feelings.
I cannot do anything about that. My heart is not evil, I do not like to show off, nor do I dislike anyone here - I love you all very much, so I study to instruct the saints in truth, not to win arguments or appear intellectual etc. If you guys can’t see that then I must asked God to help me communicate his truth better, for I do not want to be a stumbling rock for those that I hope to bless. But my motives are directed by love and you guys should know that, because I have shared my heart here hundredths of times. I know I am love and I am not falling into a pity party here, but I will not be made to feel bad about loving you enough to confront you with the truth.
As a baby Christian I had a million questions and most brothers could not give me an adequate answer, a biblical answer. God used that to help me want to do better. When folks approach me with questions and I did not know the answer to their inquiries I felt so inadequate, which also gave me zeal to study, so I could give a biblical answer for my hope. I knew almost from the day God saved me that I was born to teach and preach the Gospel. Teaching is my passion and I do it for free. I love you all. I love you all very much. Silver and gold I do not have, but what I have I give to you, in the name of Jesus and if I fail you as I endeavor to bring my Lord glory, forgive me family and teach me as well, but do not look to hurt me, I do not set out to hurt you.
I love you and Ama don't you dare erase your page woman. Stay and talk to me. I love you and all my family in Christ.
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Ama-
>>David, why can't "everyman" just mean "every man"?
Because the context (the first verse in the chapter) lets us know that Paul is talking to the church and not the unbelievers.
>>There are people of great faith who are not born again Christians.
Only a born again child of God can have Godly faith. Unbelievers do not have Godly faith. sincerely believing in something else does not validate their belief or faith, as you very well know. I know you are not stating that, I am just saying.
Nowhere in the entire bible does it say that God gives every human faith. It says that nature leaves every human without an excuse to know that there is a God, a creator (Romans 1). The creation bears witness to the existence of a creator. Natural revelation though is not enough for salvation, hence the word.
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Ama-
God gives some saving grace and others get justice, but everyone gets common grace and love from God. No one gets injustice. I will not answer your question directly, because I have no scripture to answer it with. I can tell you though that ONLY those that repent and believe in Him can be saved. There are instances that the bible does show that God/Jesus did not want some to understand. Consider the following verses:
“All these things spoke Jesus unto the multitude in PARABLES; and without a parable spoke He not unto them.” Matt 13:34
“But without a PARABLE spoke He not unto them…” Mark 4:34
“This PARABLE spoke Jesus unto them; but they understood not what things they were which He spoke unto them.” John 10:6
Many Christians believe that Jesus taught in parables to make His message clear, but that is not biblical. Even His disciples were in the dark and did not understand. Repeatedly, they asked Jesus to explain the parables to them.
“And when He was alone, they that were about Him with the twelve asked of Him the parable. And He said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God, but unto them that are without, all these things are done in parables.
“That seeing they may see, and not perceived: and hearing they may hear, and not understand; lest at any time they should be converted and their sins should be forgiven them. And He said unto them, Know ye not this parable? And how then will you know all parables?” Mark 4:10-13
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hahaha it takes a lot of studying sis, You are not giving up, you just got to deal with one issue at a time. You sure got the brains for it.
Love you
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Ama-
God does not keep us from believing. We freely chose not to believe.
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Ama-
Quantum mechanics is the one place where all known rules of logic and known laws of nature break down and we are left with a million questions and very few answers. I should say we are left wondering and speculating.
Cause and effect does not rule out free will as I understand it. As long as we keep God on the throne and humans on earth, we are able to reconcile the apparent contradiction or dilemma. I am very comfortable with accepting the truth that God is able to reconcile things that to us are mysteries. Sovereignty colliding with free will is such a thing. Personally I don’t see a contradiction or a dilemma. God is Sovereign, we are given liberties, but God is free to step in or remain aloof in any situation.
>>…how much freewill do we have?
Ama – you always have great questions.
>>My freewill is not as free as I think it is. And I don’t like it very much.
Hahaha why not sis? I love the fact that my God is in control. I am so blessed by the truth of scripture, which tells us that we are morally responsible for the choices we make and yet we are in the care of a good and loving God.
>>In other words, I can make choices. I can appear to be making random choices. But it just looks that way. How can I know?
Like you, I analyze almost everything and I tell you what helps me be ok, completely ok with the fact that I have a God guiding me. My personal relationship with Him. My personal relationship with him helps me rest in him. I know my redeemer is holy, good, loving, just, all powerful, all knowing etc… so I totally rest in his care. I rejoice in his presence and fall to my knees sobbing and in worship when his holiness surrounds me. I have surrendered my life to his will and want Him to be in control of every area of my life. I AM PERFECTLY CONTENT WITH HIM BEING IN CONTROL OF HIS UNIVERSE AND NOT ME. I AM PERFECTLY OK WITH HIM BREAKING MY WILL AND AT TIMES MAKING ME OBEY HIS WILL. IT IS WHAT MY PRAYER HAS ALWAYS BEEN. What I now find to be true in my life thought is that after many failures and always experiencing his faithfulness, He no longer needs to make me, for it is my DEEPEST JOY TO SERVE HIM. I AM BLESSED AMONG MEN. I AM A SERVANT OF THE LIVING GOD. IT IS MY JOY, IT IS WHAT I LIVE FOR.
Love to you my friend and sister.
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Amanda,
You addressed David specifically but I want you to hear my understanding of our free will. I believe that our free will given to us by God is the free will to follow Jesus or continue with the choice of Adam and Eve.
The guidance of the Holy Spirit has much to do with our choices. He guides us to the right answer but we might not choose the right answer. This is freewill.
Blessings,
Rita
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hahaaha you ganging up on me now hahaha Women! hahaaha
Love you sisters
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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David,
The last thing I want in this world is to have free will. Scripture tells me that I was chosen before even the foundation of this world. I would never exchange that for free will. I am happy for His will to be accomplished in my life. May my will be completely broken, crushed, demolished, removed, etc., etc. He created me to do good works which He has already determined. I am lost in Him. My will is greed, sinful, bad, bad, bad. Do I want free will? No way! Did I just submit my will to Him? No way! My will is to have my own way. It is totally corrupt - bad, bad, bad. There is not one shred of goodness in me. I am fallen. I cannot choose good. My will is still bad. I am so thankful He took over my life without asking my permission. If He had to get my permission to accomplish anything through me, it would be a hopeless cause.
I must admit I am amused by those who believe they have helped God get them into the Kingdom. They believe they gave Him assistance by cooperating. When I read their writings I can tell differently. They are bad, bad, bad. hahaha
Forgive me, my brother, I couldn't help myself. However, when I am bad He will do that which is necessary to clean my plow to the point I will continue to choose that which is good, good, good. That influence you are talking about is what makes me choose the good. Sometimes that influence comes in more convincing tones. I am learning to listen to that voice. If anything good ever comes from me, it is all because of Him. He must work His will through me. If He doesn't, it is not going to get done.
Blessings.
Also, when I am asked how I got there, I will answer, "It is all because of Him." Have a blessed Holy Week!
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