All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM
There is way too much useless confusion about these two schools of theology that have more in common than not.This discussions will be done in an effort to clear up some misunderstandings between the 2 major schools of Theology, so we can equip ourselves correctly.
I will give the basics and go a little deep into each system. Roger Olson has written a wonderful book detailing common misconceptions Calvinist hold about Arminians and there are many books also showing how Arminians misunderstand Reformed Theology. This is a very important topic family.
>>Jacobus Arminius (October 10, 1560–October 19, 1609), the Latinized name of the Dutch theologian Jakob Harmenszoon from the Protestant Reformation period, (also known by the Anglicized names of Jacob Arminius or James Arminius), served from 1603 as professor in theology at the University of Leiden. He wrote many books and treatises on theology, and his views became the basis of Arminianism and the Dutch Remonstrant movement.Wesley. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jacobus_Arminius
>>John Calvin (Middle French: Jean Cauvin) (10 July 1509 – 27 May 1564) was an influential French theologian and pastor during the Protestant Reformation. He was a principal figure in the development of the system of Christian theology later called Calvinism. Originally trained as a humanist lawyer, he broke from the Roman Catholic Church around 1530. After religious tensions provoked a violent uprising against Protestants in France, Calvin fled to Basel, Switzerland, where in 1536 he published the first edition of his seminal work Institutes of the Christian Religion. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Calvin
Feel free to jump in as we discuss the Doctrines of Grace. The order of Salvation, Predestination, Free will, God's election, Limited or unlimited Atonement, Resistible or Irresistible grace etc...
Enjoy!
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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Thank you Amanda,
That means a whole lot to me.
God bless you as well.
Roy -
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Amanda,
Basically, if I read your post correctly, you have two questions. 1) Freedom of Choice and 2) Why debate it. If there are more let me know, but that is basically what I sensed by reading it once.
In regards to "Freedom of Choice": The question is not whether a person has free-will in life. We choose many things every day that God has given us liberty to choose. I can choose to go to work or stay home. I can choose to eat breakfast or skip it. I can choose which set of clothes I will wear to church tomorrow. As a believer I can choose to obey or disobey my Savior once saved. It has been a while since I have studied these issues in depth, but I do not recall either camp denying our free-will in these areas of daily living. Neither paint us as either a robot or totally free. The disagreement surrounds salvation. Does God choose us, call us, save us and reveal Himself to us through His loving act of grace. The person still repents and believes, but this is all done by Christ in the person when one applies the correct definition for repent and believe (faith). That is a Calvinistic view. Arminian view is that God woos a person through the Holy Spirit to a point that they can see that they are a sinner and that Jesus died for them. Then they have the freedom given to them by God to choose salvation or not in Christ. This freedom in this view is actually a liberty. Soveriegn God gives man the liberty to choose Him or reject Him.
Calvinsim says man is totally depraved (corrupt) that he cannot possibly choose, he is dead in his sins. God has to do all of the work of salvation from beginning to end. Arminianism says that Jesus is sufficiently revealed by the Holy Spirit to the individual that they can make the moral choice of accepting or rejecting Christ. Here God does all the work of salvation with the exception that God allows the man the liberty to decide for or against Jesus.
Keep in mind that there are various views that have broken away fromt he original two.
Regarding discussing this topic: It is simply a matter of choice, no pun intended. It is a topic that will not go away IMO before Christ returns. If people wish to delve into the topic they should be free to do so. The discussion should be done in love with respect for opposing views on this topic. I choose not to debate the issue, and even here am responding to your specific questions. Others desire to discuss it and they are free to do so.
FYI to any who read this (not directed at Amanda) ... why get fired up and bent out of shape over a topic that will not go away. For the most part Calvinist will be Calvinist and Arminians will be Arminians. Few may change, some may come to an understanding, but most will continue on as before.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on
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LT
Spoken like a Godly man
True words guided by the spirit.
There is no winner or loser in this debate.
It is not worth getting angry about.
In His love
Rod -
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Margaret,
Not all believe that. There are some who teach eternal security.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Rod,
Hahaha ...... Not this time. Just not a topic I really want to get into :-)
Lord Bless,
LT -
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Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on
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Beloved family-
As incredible as it may appeared to you, Churches that align to Reformed/Calvinist theology are among the most successful ministries in the world today. Successful in evangelizing. In blessing a lost world. Both camps are ONE CHURCH - THE BRIDE OF CHRIST AND THEY ARE BOTH ONE IN BEING extremely aggressive in sharing the Gospel.
As hard as it maybe for SOME to believe it. There are brothers in Christ fill with God's Spirit who enjoy studying these topics not because of pride or to appear intellectual or to win arguments or convert people to Calvinism/Arminianism, or any other negative attitude or goal. SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY LOVE GOD AND OBVIOUSLY THEY LOVE GOD'S WORD. Nothing more to it.
Philippians 4
8 Finally, brothers, whatever is true, whatever is noble, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is admirable—if anything is excellent or praiseworthy—think about such things.
To meditate on the intricacies of our salvation with the God given passion to teach the truth is a blessing from the Lord. It is a beautiful thing, it is right, it is pure, it is lovely and to be admirable. Why do those that have no such passion always think the worst of those that do? Why? Why can it be that those among us that spend years studying the bible and the teachings of Godly men throughout church history are doing it to bring Glory to God?
I can understand the world thinking all kind of silly notions, but why must the church, why must my family in Christ try to make me feel bad about considering all as dung in comparison to the knowledge of God.
Philippians 3
7 But whatever was to my profit I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them rubbish, that I may gain Christ 9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ—the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.
NO one will ever succeed in trying to make me feel wrong about spending entire days and nights trying to understand the word of God better to be able to bless God's people with the truth that enlightens those that seek to established a relationship with Him in SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH. IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH - THERE ARE NOT 4, 3, 2 TRUTHS, BUT ONLY ONE CORRECT INTERPRETATION OF THE BIBLE, EVERY VERSE HAS ONE MEANING WITH MULTIPLE APPLICATIONS. PLEASE SOMEONE TELL ME WHAT IS WRONG WITH PURSUING TO FIND THAT ONE RIGHT MEANING, SO ONE CAN WORSHIP GOD IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH? No one will make me feel wrong about seeking the truth, nor will I encourage anyone not to seek after the truth. Why do folks who seek to learn are thought of as prideful, arrogant etc.... Why? Because some unfortunately have fallen in those pit holes? Well their master will make sure they stand, but not everyone falls in to those negative attitudes. Why must the church act like the world? Not every man that seeks after reconciling such topics has evil intentions. The world thinks every preacher is a money hungry thief and that we Christians are a bunch of silly individuals who run from reality and take cover under a fictitious manmade God. Why does my own family in Christ think that those of us who seek to understand these issues are wrong? It is not enough that I get attack by the world? Must my own family also hurt those of us that want to teach the truth? It's that so bad?
No one here is saying those that aligned to the Arminian view are a bunch of... or those that aligned to Calvinist are a bunch of...
Why must those of us that chose to have BEAUTIFUL and peaceful DISCUSSIONS SUCH AS THIS ONE ALWAYS HAVE TO GET HIT BY THE PART OF THE FAMILY THAT FINDS THIS topics FUTILE? Have anyone ever seen anyone here say, hey that is too simple of a question or discussion for us intellectual people to have. Why don’t you buy a brain and come back later. Of course not, that would be wrong. Then why are we treated like that, by the suppose people who stick to the bible and have so much love for the people of God. So much more than those of us who are simply full of doctrine and not God’s love? What?
As I shared with Gregory below:
It is unfortunately true that many follow isms more closely than God's word. They have fallen in love with disputing theological matters and being theologically sound more than having a relationship with Christ. Also many see the opposite camp's adherents, who have a different interpretation concerning the teachings of Christ about salvation, as almost enemies and heretics that need to burn on a stake. It is also true that knowledge puffs up at times. These things should not be so.
We are having a wonderful discussion, if you don't like the topic, skip it or start your own discussions. But please do not start divisions among us or sow discord where there is none. -
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Beloved Maggie,
Every person that God places in my path matters to me. I believe that everyone I come in contact with has been designed by God with one purpose and one purpose only. That is to edify them. Nothing else. I want nothing from no one except the chance to bless them. So my comments did not intended to convey what you unfortunately perceived by them. They did not mean anywhere near what you got out of them. I will try to explain myself better and please bear with me as I try.
>>the most successful ministries don’t mean that they are the best.
I agree sis and have shared that same thought multiple times in different discussions. I have taken into consideration the fact you stated and I quote above, when expressing my thoughts. It is obvious after examining ministries like Lingonier Ministries R.C. Sproul; Grace to you- John MaCarthur; Desiring God - John Piper; that these guys are in love with our God and God backs up their Ministries, because they love Him. All praise and Glory to the King. I can also place an impressive list or Ministries led by men who openly aligned to Arminian theology. The point I was trying to make is that we are one body of Christ, with both camps working aggressively to evangelize a lost world.
>>people who accept this point of view may find it easy for they have to do nothing and sit back thinking God already predestined them so there is not much else to say about the matter. Will He also walk our walk for us as well.
I have heard awesome sermons preach about the importance of walking in holiness from both camps. Some of the ones that have deeply impacted me come from the Reformers, because we/they are aware of the human flesh’s desire to find loopholes or shortcuts . we are very aware also of the unfortunate danger that wants to creep in to tell us we can now be complacent and we are very aware that some rebellious sheep may come to conclude what you have stated up above, that they need do nothing. So Reformed preachers, preach endlessly and extensively about the necessity for our faith to produce works of righteousness and to live in holiness. Those who unfortunately go do their own thing, thinking they got it made already are in for a very rocky road. God will whoop His own. They may find out also that they really enjoy the sin they have gone back to and get tire of playing the Christian game, because they were never of us, so they can depart and do their own thing as the word teaches in 1 John without conviction.
>>will He also walk our walk for us as well.
Very simple. Nope. We are called to: Therefore, I urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercy, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices, holy and pleasing to God—this is your spiritual[a] act of worship. 2 Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will. Romans 12
>>and please dont accuse any for not agreeing with all the statements made here as to not having a relationship to Christ.
I have never said that. My post had nothing to do with Calvinism or Arminianism specifically. I could post my last post on numerous discussions where the participants are accuse of arrogance, pride, a desire to be intellectuals etc... All because some in the body of Christ are passionate about studying God's word and the writing of God's people throughout history. How you see me saying what you perceived from my above post beloved is beyond me, if I did, please point it out to me, cause that would be wrong for me to do. I love all my family in Christ and have never and would never accuse someone of not having a relationship with Christ because they don't agree with Calvinism or Arminianism. I fellowship and have for the past 16 years in Churches that only teach Arminianism and met some of the most beautiful folks on the planet through those 16 years in those churches. Folks who are in love with my Lord, so beloved I never said what you think I said.
>>also sometimes the church acts as you say like the world cause some don’t agree with your viewpoint.
Again beloved Maggie, I believe that if you go back and reread my post you will not get what you got on the first read. What you got out of it is not what I was saying, not even close beloved. What I meant is that those among us who study the word and/or any biblical (not necessarily the topic of this discussion, but any topic) topic are persecuted from outside and from within at times. From within because a portion of the church, which includes people in the church from any denomination, who think always negative thoughts of those looking to grasp biblical truth. Some among the family immediately associate those of us who love to study (not all people of course - thank God) as prideful, arrogant know it alls. I do not get it, how do some come to those conclusions without even knowing the person.
I am sorry that some Reformed theology tenants pained you beloved. But allow me to hopefully give you some peace. Both camps believe that Christ die for the whole world. How each camp explains what that actually means differs. But I believe as any other Reformed and Arminian theologian would agree that the offer of salvation is on the table because of the death of Christ on the Cross for every human being that would take it. I believe that God sincerely offers salvation to the whole world sis and so does every other Reformer/Calvinist, yet men love their sinful ways. But any who believes will be saved. I believe that sis.
Hope that clears somethings up. Luv you sis. :) -
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Pastor Dave,
You are sounding more like my beloved Pastor Paul all the time. You are spending so much time reading His writings you are beginning to sound just like him. Do not be offended when people reject you and your freedom. Don't ever stop preaching the Good News. Here is one old man that is being greatly blessed. God will make sure that you will be constantly put down. It's His purpose and plan. Even our beloved Lord was constantly put down. If everyone just praised you for your hard work and understanding, you would be no good to His service. Embrace the criticism as from the Lord. People should challenge you. It drives you to His Word.
I can also tell that you have some very good support. There are people out there praying for you to be all God wants you to be. Those who think this understanding makes you sit back and coast have no idea what they are talking about. Those who think this makes you proud don't understand how humble you are made to feel.
Your brother in Christ,
'Roy -
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Amanda,
Are you not now doing exactly what you and others have accused those of supporting Calvinism of doing? Are you not presenting that you are right in your view and they are wrong? David, and others, have stated their position and though they disagree with the other position accept that there are people in both camps who love Jesus. You are proclaiming that Calvinism may keep people away from Christ. That simply is not provable at any level.
People make all kinds of excuses as to why they will not accept Christ or Christianity. I find it not plausible that a person can see Jesus as the living God, Savior and Christ and realize that they are a sinner and then say "I would have accepted Him, but just can't buy into the Calvinism stuff." These two camps only hinder the cause of Christ when they fight each other, which is sinful in nature as both serve the same risen Lord and Savior. To discuss the topic is not the same as fighting.
When one comes to Christ, what does the process look like on this side from our perspective? (The following is very basic and more could be included, but for the sake fo the example it should suffice)
- Things tend to be happening in the person's life, current or recent. This event usually causes them to ponder their life and their future. For some it may be a time in jail, another a death, another a finiancial crash. The event may be as simple as realizing something is missing in their life.
- The gospel is preached and the person responds.
- Repentance and faith occur.
- In the process the person is born-again.
Was it God doing it all or did He allow the person the liberty to choose? What was the exact timing of these things? Who can tell? Salvation and the process from the human point of view looks the same in both camps.
If one believes in the Arminian view they are free to step in and discuss it laying out why they believe that way. Yes, David and others will address the differences. That is how discussions take place that lead to edification when waring words are left out and when all is done in love.
Lord Bless,
LT -
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God bless you Brother Tim,
I guess my only reply is that I am not the one who said it. His sheep know His voice and they will follow Him. I cannot explain to you to your satisfaction about the rest. One thing is very obvious from this passage: Jesus is speaking to a group of people that are not His. He is not giving us a bunch of information about them other than that they do not belong to Him. If they did, they would listen to His voice and follow Him.
Read the passage again with the idea in mind of who He is speaking to. What did His words do? It divided the camp. He is explaining why some follow Him and why some don't. The explanation that He gave was that they did not know Him. They didn't know who He was. That faith comes from the Father. The reaction from the Pharisees was the desire to kill Him. In another place He told them their Father was not God but was actually the devil - some pretty rough stuff. I cannot explain to you why some are His and some are not. However, the teaching is extremely clear. Some are His and some are not and His know His voice.
How does He know who are His sheep?
Jn 10:26 26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. NIV
It is those who believe in Him that are His sheep. -
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