WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 14, 2010 at 10:05pm

Yes, I am being enriched by David's teaching. However, if someone decides that they don't agree, I am not offended and have no problems continuing in fellowship.

The reference to being unfair is an objection that I hear often concerning the Calvinistic position. Is it fair that He would choose one and not the other is a question asked of the Calvinist. The Calvinist is unable to answer since He does not know why God chooses one and seems not to choose the other. He is forced to put His trust in God. He refuses to make God fit His mold, however. What he does know is that God has called him to be His own. Here is what He knows:


Ps 23

The LORD is my shepherd, I shall not be in want.
2 He makes me lie down in green pastures,
he leads me beside quiet waters,
3 he restores my soul.
He guides me in paths of righteousness
for his name's sake.
4 Even though I walk
through the valley of the shadow of death,
I will fear no evil,
for you are with me;
your rod and your staff,
they comfort me.

5 You prepare a table before me
in the presence of my enemies.
You anoint my head with oil;
my cup overflows.
6 Surely goodness and love will follow me
all the days of my life,
and I will dwell in the house of the LORD
forever. NIV

I do believe this understanding opens up a spiritual awareness of our relationship with God. Can I debate AW Tozer? Obviously not, even though I do not believe completely his position on free will. I do believe in free will to a point but I reach a point in my understanding that I do not believe that it is possible to ever go there. I struggle to see how an unregenerate man would decide to choose God. His very nature is to resist God, to be obstinate, to be irreconcilable. I think a good example of a salvation experience is our brother Paul on the road to Damascus. That poor guy was so dazzled by the awesomeness of God that He could not resist Him. His life was changed - one moment he was an unbeliever and the very next moment he became a believer. I don't see Paul being given much of a choice. Once you know He is Lord, you are hooked.

I am not offended when someone doesn't agree and neither do I feel the need to seek to convince everyone of this position. I do admit I love singing the praises of my Lord about what He has done for me.

The Lord bless you.
Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 7:25am

Margaret,

I have to respectfully disagree. Paul is a beautiful example of someone chosen by God's grace. His writings reflect his experience. That is part of the problem with the church. We read about Noah, Moses, Samson, David, Mark, Luke, Paul and many, many others. We put them on a different level than us. We understand that God chose to put His grace and power upon their lives but fail to understand that He has done exactly the same thing to us. It may not be that you will ever build an ark or lead millions of people out of bondage but if you ever are going to accomplish anything for our Lord, you are going to have to have the same power and grace that they had. We are all equal in Christ. All of are desperate for His grace. We all need the same anointing of His Spirit. Now, that's a subject we have yet to get on - the anointing of His Spirit. We all need the exact same anointing that Paul had. We have all had the exact same experience of salvation that he had. Just remember, when you are reading about Paul's conversion and the extent that Christ had to go to to get him to turn around, understand that He had to do the same thing to you. You were no better than Paul. Your heart was just as stubborn and resistant as Paul's. I guarantee that Jesus had to go the extra mile to get you. You also have a wonderful experience in Christ. Don't ever allow Satan to cheat you out of who you are in Christ. You are just as important to Christ as Paul. Just as Christ went after Paul, he went after you.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 9:23am

However,

Let me also say that I hope not to be alienated from people just because I believe that God chooses us totally by His grace and for His purpose. We should never be divided just because we see this issue somewhat differently.

It is my purpose to share Christ and His love and nothing more.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 11:05pm

PREVENIENT GRACE - THE WESLEYAN NECESSITY
BY JEFF PATON (2 nd part)

The issue of prevenience may be new to you. I was unaware of it for the first 15 years as a Christian! The doctrine answered many problematic questions that had plagued me for many years. Upon first hearing the doctrine explained, I thought that this made sense! My second question was whether it was Biblical! Theories are a dime a dozen but truth is an irreplaceable jewel. The value of this doctrine is not that John Wesley and others adhered to it, but whether it adheres to the Bible and common sense.

The Bible shows us an example of Divine initiative that is contained in the record of the conversion of Cornelius. Before his conversion to Christianity he was called by God, "A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house." Now, Cornelius was a centurion and not a Jew. (see Acts 10:45.) He would be considered by many as outside the household of faith. There is nothing in the story that tells us that he "willed" himself into being a devout man. What we see within the record is that God considered him devout based upon his reaction to the limited light he had. Then we see a direct reference to the prevenient grace of God in that "He saw a vision, about the ninth hour of the day, an angel of God coming in to him, and saying unto him.....Thy prayers and thy alms are come up for a memorial before God....send men to Joppa, and call for one Simon, whose surname is Peter."( Acts 10:2-8.) God was about to offer Cornelius even more light. God was working in him before his conversion, and like all of us, would continually, by grace, work within him thereafter. Rev. D. L. Hartman cites other examples from Scripture for our consideration. On the day of Pentecost thousands of people were gathered in Jerusalem. The Spirit descended upon the disciples and they began to preach....the Bible says, "they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?" Acts 2:37.9 We might add to this growing list of people whose lives were greatly affected by prevenient grace a woman by the name of Lydia. As Paul prayed by the river he spoke to some women who gathered there. A woman, Lydia by name, heard that he was there and went to meet him. The Bible says that she "worshiped God, heard us, whose heart the Lord opened, that she attend unto the things which were spoken of Paul." Acts 16:14 The Spirit of grace, prevenient grace, went before and when Paul arrived she came to a complete knowledge in Him and was saved. Not just her, but her whole household too.

Rev. Hartman also sites the story of the Philippian jailer, saying, " He too was moved by the praying and singing of Paul and Silas. When the earthquake came and found all the prisoners safe in their cells, he knelt at the feet of Paul and Silas and said, "Sirs, what must I do to be saved?" Acts 16:30.10 In all of these examples we see that all grace is not saving grace. Those who argue for a Calvinistic irresistible grace must contend with the fact that these people, convicted and given grace to respond, recognize that they had a further need of salvation. Also, notice that not in one instance, is there ever a declaration that nothing more is needed to be done because they were already regenerate. Repentance and faith precede regeneration, and grace precedes repentance and faith. In light of these examples from the Bible, we can see why prevenient grace, for Wesley, is a Scriptural teaching. The term itself, to be sure, is not found in the Bible, but the notion that the grace of God is given freely to all men at the time of their coming into the world is, according to Wesley, clearly manifest in the Scriptures. In his 1740 sermon "Free Grace," Wesley declares that according to Paul God, for the sake of Christ, freely gives "all things" to all men (Romans 8:32), and that this includes the gift of a universal prevenient grace. Or again, Wesley views the Johannine statement concerning the "light" which "lighteth" every man that cometh into the world" as referring to the gift of the prevenient grace of Christ. The notion of unregenerate man’s partial knowledge of good and evil, apart from the revelation of the law in Scripture, as expressed in Romans 2:12-14, is considered by Wesley to be the consequence of the operation of prevenient grace in man. Accordingly, he interprets Micah 6:8, "He hath showed thee, O man, what is good," as a benefit to all mankind of the prevenient grace of Christ through the Spirit. The concept of an initial and preceding grace given by God to man as the basis for certain kinds of knowledge and action is, for Wesley, firmly based in the testimony of Scripture.11

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 11:12pm

PREVENIENT GRACE - THE WESLEYAN NECESSITY
BY JEFF PATON (Third part)

Dr. William Burt Pope gives us perhaps the most thorough and complete presentation of the Scriptural basis for prevenient grace. He says of prevenient grace, "It is the sole, efficient cause of all spiritual good in man: of the beginning, continuance, and consummation of religion in the human soul. The manifestation of Divine influence which precedes the full regenerate life receives no special name in Scripture; but it is so described as to warrant the designation usually given it of Prevenient Grace.12 He proceeds with his thoughts on different passages establishing the doctrine as one would derive the Trinity. From the overwhelming evidence of Scripture we can see the undeniable truth.

He follows the logical pattern of Wesley on the subject by substantiating the depravity of man. "The powerlessness of man is everywhere assumed in Scripture, though not stated in positive terms."13 Ephesians 2:1 says "He quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins." And "Not by might, nor by power, but by My Spirit, saith the Lord of Hosts." Zechariah 4:6. "Without Me ye can do nothing." John 15:5. This, in addition to the passages already quoted, confirm the fact that we are all far gone from original righteousness, and that this corruption has gone so far within us that we are incapable of seeking or desiring God apart from some Divine initiative intervening in our lives.

"Hence it is declared that the salvation of man is altogether of grace. By grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God."14 There is no doubt in the mind of Pope that man is incapable of self-generating faith unto salvation. Adam Clarke states, "Is not faith the gift of God? Yes, as to the grace by which it is produced; but the grace or power to believe, and the act of believing, are two different things. Without the grace or power to believe no man ever did or can believe; but with that power the act of faith is a man’s own. God never believes for any man, no more than he repents for him; the penitent, through this grace enabling him, believes for himself: nor does he believe necessarily or impulsively when he has that power."15

The application of this grace is worked within us through the Holy Spirit. Dr. Pope remarks that "This grace as the influence of the Spirit on the minds of men generally and of individual men before their personal acceptance is described in various ways. These may be classed as, first, referring to the Divine operation, when it is a striving and drawing; secondly, in relation to the means used, when it is a demonstration of the truth; thirdly, as influencing man, when it is the working in him to will, by piercing or opening his heart. These three are distinct, but one; and, when compared, yield a doctrine which is simple in its mystery though mysterious in its simplicity."16

Of this drawing of the Spirit he quotes Genesis 6:3 where God declares "My Spirit shall not always strive with man." And John 6:39 and 44. "No man can come to me except the Father which hath sent Me draw him, and we may add, this spake He of the Spirit."17 The clear emphasis of this drawing grace within Scripture denies any concept of merit on behalf of the believer himself. Commenting on an exploded doctrine of man’s freedom, Dr. John Miley says that there is no "doctrine of instantaneous self-regeneration, nor of self-regeneration in any sense...the power is a gracious endowment."18 Any restoration of free-will is initiated by the Holy Spirit. We cannot claim any merit for any good toward our salvation since apart from the enabling of the Spirit of God. Without grace we are impotent, this is why there can be no merit in faith and repentance. Some have charged Wesleyan-Arminians with synergistic pride since we believe that the condition of faith must be freely exercised by the will of man that has been enabled by the prevenient grace of God.19 The accusation of this so-called pride and self-saving is unfounded. Robert Shank argues that the work of faith as a condition for salvation is not the earning of salvation, he responds, "conceit and self-esteem for what?...For totally renouncing all claim to self-righteousness? For completely repudiating all dependence on good works? For renouncing all claim to personal merit? For abjectly humbling oneself before God as a broken sinner, deserving death, helpless, unable to save himself? For casting oneself on the mercies of God and hoping only in the merits and grace of Jesus Christ? These are the elements that are of the essence of saving faith, and where true faith exists, there can be no pride or self-esteem."20 Who’s enabling work is this anyway? It is the work of the Spirit.

Those that see this synergism as antithetical towards salvation by grace contend that man is not free to respond to the Gospel until after regeneration and salvation. They argue that because of this, the will of man is not a factor in salvation. Thus, any drawing of the Spirit is irresistible. In a sense, they are saying grace is coercive. Calvinists vehemently deny that fallen man is violated in this process since man is made willing by this application of grace. The problem here is that this is in complete opposition to Scripture. The Holy Spirit is said to "strive" with man. If He strives, then how can His influences be irresistible? How come man is not willing?

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 11:23pm

b>PREVENIENT GRACE - THE WESLEYAN NECESSITY
BY JEFF PATON (4th part)

Paul wrote to the Galatians, "I do not frustrate the grace of God." (2:21) In Hebrews 10:29, we are warned not to do "despite the Spirit of grace." If man is unable to resist the grace and operation of the Spirit, then why do would we have these passages? It is clear from Scripture and experience that we can go against our conscience, which is quickened by the prevenient grace of God. "Ye will not come to me, that ye might have life." John 5:40. What would be the purpose of this statement if the offer to come did not exist for the hearers? It would be nothing less than cold, calloused taunting to the eternally damned, and that from the very Son of God himself! Why did He not say clearly "Ye cannot come to me" if this was the truth?

Is it true that we cannot believe and have faith until after we are regenerated? "There are genuine antecedents to regeneration. There is such a thing as preparation by the Spirit. Some maintain, indeed, that the first touch of the Spirit upon a sinful soul is the touch that regenerates, all that seems like preparation being due to some other source than the Spirit; but that is not so....Before the new and holy life is actually begun, God is leading the soul up to readiness for entertaining it."21 "It is very common with Calvinistic writers to insist on faith as preceding repentance. (And salvation preceding faith,) We believe that in the order of time repentance is exercised first. "There is, indeed, a faith which precedes and induces repentance - a belief of the testimony of God concerning the evil and demerit of sin, and concerning His willingness to receive such as to renounce sin and turn to Him. The former must be believed, or the sinner will see no need for repentance. The latter must be in some degree apprehended, or he will have no sufficient encouragement to repentance. But the belief which thus produces penitence is not the faith which justifies and saves him." Justifying faith has a direct and immediate reference to Christ crucified, and is consequent upon that penitential sorrow which mourns for guilt and cries for mercy. The jailor at Philippi was a real penitent when he was directed to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ. John the Baptist observed the same order in the exhortation, Repent ye and believe the Gospel" (Mark 1:15); and so did St. Paul in his preaching, whether to Jews or Greeks (Acts 20:21), "testifying repentance toward God, and faith toward our Lord Jesus Christ."...repentance is distinctly stated to be the gift of God (Acts 5:31, 11:18, and 2 Timothy 2:25); and yet is commanded as the duty and act of man (Mark 6:12, Luke 13:3, Acts 8:22 and 17:30.)22 The Gospel is also clear that salvation follows belief or faith, and does not precede it. (John 3:16, 36. Romans 10:9-10.)

Another fact which shows the prevenient grace at work in the unconverted is that even though they are totally depraved, they are not as bad as they can get. To be "totally" depraved implies that unregenerate individuals cannot be any worse off. But the Bible declares that evil men and seducers shall wax worse and worse.(2 Timothy 3:13). This shows that through the preventing work of the Spirit, even the unregenerate are allotted some freedom through grace. The fact that the world is not operating at the lowest levels of human depravity is an exhibition of the profound mercy of God. Imagine, what kind of world we would have (and justly so due to our sin and rebellion) if God did not take the initiative to intervene. This is prevenient grace indeed.

"The question of the relation of the divine to human agency in this field is the question of the relation of divine grace to free will. Augustine denied the second, Pelagius denied the first. Arminianism tries, while avoiding the two extremes, to maintain the truth in both. Not that it puts the two factors on a level. On the contrary, it puts grace first, and makes it supreme. The Spirit is given to all men as the fruit of atonement, and grace works in all, works toward salvation. This holds good of all without exception, has held good since the beginning. It holds good of the unconverted before conversion, of those who never are converted, of the heathen who have never heard of Christ. Anticipating human desire and effort (hence called prevenient grace), it checks and counteracts sin, inspires and fosters good inclination, and allures to the search for more grace. This universal divine working is the source of moral good and beauty in the irreligious. When welcomed and followed up, it passes into saving grace. Nothing but neglect or resistance prevents its having this issue in any case. It is here that Arminianism and Predestinarianism part company. The latter holds what it calls "common grace," which it credits with all the effects just mentioned, but which never becomes or can become effectual saving grace. Common grace belongs to all, effectual grace only to the elect individuals. Such a distinction can never be reconciled with Scripture, with the divine justice, or with human responsibility. If we are asked whether the power by which man accepts God’s proffered grace is from God or from man, we answer, From God. "The power by which man cooperates with grace is itself of grace" (Pope). But every man has it by divine gift. According to Augustine, there is no power to cooperate with God until after regeneration, and if so, no responsibility. We hold that such power and responsibility exist from the first dawn of moral life. Arminianism is often charged with the error of Semi-Pelagianism, which gives to man the power to originate good in himself, and only makes divine help necessary to its completion. The above statement shows that the charge is without foundation."23

When we compare the available data on this subject, the only way we can reconcile all the data is to accept a doctrine of prevenient grace. It admits the inability of man without violating the freedom and responsibility that comes with it. If God does not restore a level of freedom to mankind while they remain unregenerate, then "man cannot be responsible or accountable for his volitions or acts- cannot be subject of praise or blame. God himself is the only responsible being in the universe, as all causation- agency proper - terminates in Him."24 Both the Calvinistic and Pelagian theories leave us wanting. Insurmountable obstacles rise up from the Scriptures which lead us to the rejection of both of these theories.

What does experience teach us about this? We all know that our actions are free and that we are responsible for them. The prevenient grace of God has been working in us all of our lives, but why then, do the unregenerate attribute it to conscience? I would answer that it is because they do not know God. I can look back through my past and see where God was working on me and in me, even though I did not attribute this to the power of God at that time. It is interesting to note that Socrates used to speak of his "demon," an inner and spiritual monitor which in the clear light of consciousness was heard by him as a voice of warning or exhortation directing his feet in the path of duty and truth."25 "This wide range of possible influences is accounted for by a fact that it is often overlooked,- the fact that the Spirit leads into the new life less by the way of thinking than by the way of feeling. ...it is in the heart, not in the head, that regeneration is wrought, and the way of feeling, the heart, the emotional or affectional life, is the Spirit’s way of approach to it."26 Many of us had resisted the tugging of the Holy Spirit upon our hearts, sometimes for years, before we surrendered to its influence.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 5:58am

Linda,

I have a different but similar story. I grew up in a Christian home. My parents received Christ when I was very young. I also accepted Him as Savior. We were attending a Pentecostal very holiness church. The pastor held us all to a very high standard. I remember him speaking of a dream where he was commanded to preach holiness. As I grew to become a teenager, the normal teenage problems became mine. I knew in my heart that I was no good. I began a life of working to be the best I could be but would always fall short of the standard. None of the young men of that church were able to live up to the standard and fell away. Somehow I continued with the Lord but always felt I was a long way off of what I should be. I had a recurring dream that I and some of the older ladies of the church would be standing around a piano singing hymns. The rapture would take place and I would go to the ceiling and fall back down. I would wake from the dream terrified that the rapture had taken place and I was left behind. I lived in fear. After awakening I would hit my knees and I would promise the Lord to be a missionary, a pastor, whatever but begged not to be left behind. My pastor preached hell hot and that was where most of us were going to wind up if we didn't live according to this high standard. I didn't learn much about grace and mercy. I graduated from high school and went on to Bible college to become a pastor. I went to a holiness college so we were all in the same boat. Virtually all of the guys had grown up in the same church environment and virtually all lived in a state of rebellion. For some reason I was able to maintain a state of reaching a standard that was acceptable to the leadership of the college and the church. I met a young girl, married, and went on to be ordained as a pastor. However, I never shook this feeling that I would never end up in heaven. I never thought of dying too much since we all felt the rapture was just around the corner. My wife had grown up in the same environment and so didn't find anything wrong with my preaching.

I began my ministry preaching the same Gospel. Yes, Jesus died for your sins but you still had to live to a certain standard or you would never make it. I continued to have this nightmare of a dream that I was going to be left behind at the rapture. The dream was always the same with the same place, people and props - the singing, the trumpet, everyone else would go but I would always fall back to the floor. I was never good enough to go. I was confident that God's love was always conditional upon my performance.

I was teaching the children the same ideas that were taught me as a child. I had the same Lord, the same Bible, the same cross, etc. but I always put it on us to perform. I was a pastor who was still convinced that I would never make it to heaven. I was miserable. Finally, at the age of 27, God called me on an extended fast. I drank only tap water. The fast lasted ten days. During the fast I was all alone. It was just God and me. I read and reread the Bible. Soon I was just focusing on the New Testament. Then the Spirit had me reading Romans, over and over. Eventually, I understood what the Holy Spirit was speaking to my heart. I understood for the first time in my life that my relationship with Him was not conditional on me but upon Him. Through other Scripture He let me know that Christ had come to get me and that He definitely was going to get me home. I was a goner. I had sent my wife and three beautiful children (we now have a total of five) to visit her mother during the fast. When she returned, I went up to her and grabbed her and told her I could go out and commit the worst sin imaginable and still be on my way to heaven. She actually thought I had gone crazy and called her mother for advice. Eventually, she would also understand these wonderful truths of God's grace. We were well on our way to going from being extreme Armenians to being extreme Calvinists. I could have cared less about the label but was very excited about His truth.

Can you imagine what that poor church went through over the next several months. They were all extreme Armenians as well. I can tell you it wasn't a pretty picture. I wanted everyone to experience this same love relationship with Jesus that I now had. Soon after this I had this recurring dream - everything was the same. However, this time I didn't fall back to the ground at the rapture but was sailing past the stars when I awoke. That was thirty-six years ago and I have never had the dream since. I was set totally free from bondage.

Here is one guy that was totally set free by His Word. I didn't get it from a preacher, teacher or book. I was totally set free by the Book that I had previously thought was my enemy. The Book had previously been constantly used to bring me condemnation. Now, it was telling me who I was in Christ and my whole relationship with God changed. I saw Him from a different light.

I have attempted to condense this and probably most will just avoid it. However, if your are reading this and find yourself in a similar situation with God as I was, I can personally tell you that His Word can set you free. These verses David is speaking about are true. Since I can read the Bible about you, I know all of you know you know you are not worthy of Him. However, you can know that you belong to Him by His choice and that He is going to get you home. You can finally understand what He is talking about when He speaks of a Sabbath rest. He can give your soul rest and you will never ever worry about your salvation again. When your accuser begins to condemn you, you can fire so much Scripture at him he will flee. Once you know who you are in Christ, you'll stop worrying about your salvation. You will still have many trials but the fear of hell will be gone. You will stop serving Him in fear and begin serving Him in love.

I can tell you that if you get this understanding, many in the church will not be happy with you. You will have to be moderate with your expression of your freedom and some will resent it. Trust me, misery loves company. Your life will still be full of trouble but you will sense Him carrying you through all those difficult times.

God bless you Linda. I can tell you are a hooked one. I can also tell it is not by David's convincing you, but by His Word. I can also tell you that there is no denomination that will really understand your experience. Administrative structures are sometimes about different things other than His Word. Doctrinal teaching sometimes can be something that keeps us separate. There should be no such thing. You can belong to any church and gain understanding of who you are in Christ. I thought being a Baptist would help as my original church really rejected this teaching. Becoming a Baptist didn't help. I tried the reformed group but to many it was just a doctrinal teaching and not an experience. What I have is not a doctrinal teaching even though people will want to reduce you to that, it is an experience. It is a relationship with Jesus. When you read after different ones you will be able to identify if this teaching is just a doctrine that has been handed down from one generation to another or something that this person experienced first hand like David. I guess that is why I like him so much. I love hearing about his experience. God can do this same thing to the most wicked of us all (however, all of us are just as wicked as David V was or anyone else).

God bless you all,
Roy

Permalink Reply by The Shearer. on August 15, 2010 at 2:30pm

I am a man of few words ,but I would just like to say thank you David ,L inda ,and Ron for this little bit of info I have read this morning ,before heading off to work.It is such a wonderful thing to see others growing ,and to feel yourself growing by it ,Amen and thank you again........Andrew.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 15, 2010 at 6:15pm

Roy,

What a testimony. Praise God that His Spirit continues to prick at us, helping us to press on beyond what we have been taught, to come to a richer understanding of God's character and ways.

One of the things that have always tripped me out is how so many in prisons (bad people) come to the Lord and so “many good” folks end up in hell. I mean is not hard for the bad guys to realize we have messed up. Our families are disappointed; the judge has told us he never wants to see us again in his court room etc... So when we hear God's called, however that called maybe introduced to our out of control lifes - is like - yeah I know I am a mess, no doubt about that.

But testimonies of law abiding citizens that did not see a need for God since they believed that within them was the potential for goodness as well as evil and by comparing themselves to other humans and always finding those who are less moral then them, they feel that they are good or that if there is a God in heaven, He will definitely let them in for their good works out number there bad ones, now those are equally great testimonies of God in our lives. There are others who are raised in religious homes where God/church is a ritual that is done as something good citizens are to do. Yet others grow up in good Christian homes wondering what it would be like to go enjoy (Yeah! right - enjoy the world, the world has one major thing to offer - Death) the world. For these there testimony is so boring they think, I wish I had an awesome testimony like Brother David’s. And I am like what, if they only knew that we think their testimonies of abiding in the truth is way more amazing than any out there. To me all testimonies are amazing. Everyone’s particular set of circumstances, trials and tribulation are quite a story.

But those that were raised in a healthy Christian home and have never ventured out to the world, though of course they fall short of the glory of God, now these are the most amazing testimonies within the church. Man and woman that have chosen to serve God and overcome the huge lie and temptation that they are missing out by not experiencing the world. Please, please let me tell you. Press on in holiness, for great is your reward and the world without the Lord will only cause you death. Well I have digressed big time and all your fault beloved Roy hahahaha for sharing with us, where our beautiful Lord has brought you from.

Blessings and thanks for sharing.

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on August 16, 2010 at 4:47am

Roy,
I am blown away by your testimony.

I suppose I have been lucky and I was only discussing this with Linda this morning.

Prior to coming to Christ 5 years ago I had rarely if ever been to a church. Only the odd wedding and christening that we all get roped into. No interest in wasting a perfectly good Sunday.

Because of that, when I did find the truth I was unaware of the vast amount of different doctrines in the diiferent denominations that separated Christians and churches.

I was given a racing head start into the word as I have a wonderful tutor and reference library in Linda (LOL) and as all have seen on AAG her knowledge of scripture is vast and encompasses most theologies and doctrines.
Yet she is still willing to learn.

She is a walking and talking concordance for me. What a blessing.

Your testimony has lifted me immeasureably as I see in your past the confusion and doubt I have experienced in my short walk.

You quite obviously have an enormously better understanding of scripture and theology than I, however the knowledge that God will not let us fall away is like removing a 200 lb pack from my back on a 10 mile walk.

Thank you so much for sharing with us.

It is not always an easy thing to do to share our history and innermost thoughts, but what you have written has been an incredible blessing to me and I feel certain many others here.

And on top of that you quote my favourite piece of scripture Ps 23
The Lord is my Shepherd I shall not want. Amen

God bless you Roy for your honesty and love
In His love
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 16, 2010 at 6:25am

Rod,

I was very grateful when I saw David put up this forum. To those who feel the purpose is to prove others wrong just do not know. I carried that same 200 lb pack around on my back for twenty years before I came to the understanding that it was so unnecessary. He said, "My burden is light." I was carrying the same heavy weight and so knew I was wrong. It is not about winning an argument but it is all about seeing those who are carrying the same weight I was carrying learn how to set that weight down and walk in freedom.

I read your post to my wife amidst the tears. Knowing that weight is being lifted from your back is music to my ears. I praise God for you and Linda. Linda does know the Word and now she will go crazy since much of what she knows is unlocked and understanding will come in like a flood. Scripture will find new meaning. She and you will see yourselves all over the Word. You may not know why but you will know He is talking about you. You are the one He is speaking to. You are the one He came to take home with Him. You are the one who hears His voice. You will wonder, "But, why me?" You will laugh with Him, rejoice with Him, walk with Him and during times that are unbearable be carried by Him until that day He carries you home.

You are becoming lost in Him.

God bless you and your family, I love your family.
In Christ,
Roy

Permalink Reply by M. L. on August 15, 2010 at 6:52am

What Did Martin Luther Believe About Predestination? – His Final Word on the Subject

Luther Addresses the Problems that Occur When Christians Misunderstand Predestination

But it pleases me to take from this passage the opportunity to discuss doubt, God, and the will of God; for I hear that here and there among the nobles and persons of importance vicious statements are being spread abroad concerning predestination or God’s foreknowledge. For this is what they say: “If I am predestined, I shall be saved, whether I do good or evil. If I am not predestined, I shall be condemned regardless of my works.” I would be glad to debate in detail against these wicked statements if the uncertain state of my health made it possible for me to do so. For if the statements are true, as they, of course, think, then the incarnation of the Son of God, His suffering and resurrection, and all that He did for the salvation of the world are done away with completely. What will the prophets and all Holy Scripture help? What will the sacraments help? Therefore let us reject all this and tread it underfoot.

These are devilish and poisoned darts and original sin itself, with which the devil led our first parents astray when he said (Gen. 3:5): “You will be like God.” They were not satisfied with the divinity that had been revealed and in the knowledge of which they were blessed, but they wanted to penetrate to the depth of the divinity. For they inferred that there was some secret reason why God had forbidden them to eat of the fruit of the tree which was in the middle of Paradise, and they wanted to know what this reason was, just as these people of our time say: “What God has determined beforehand must happen. Consequently, every concern about religion and about the salvation of souls is uncertain and useless.” Yet it has not been given to you to render a verdict that is inscrutable. Why do you doubt or thrust aside the faith that God has enjoined on you? For what end did it serve to send His Son to suffer and to be crucified for us? Of what use was it to institute the sacraments if they are uncertain or completely useless for our salvation? For otherwise, if someone had been predestined, he would have been saved without the Son and without the sacraments or Holy Scripture. Consequently, God, according to the blasphemy of these people, was horribly foolish when He sent His Son, promulgated the Law and the Gospel, and sent the apostles if the only thing He wanted was that we should be uncertain and in doubt whether we are to be saved or really to be damned.

But these are delusions of the devil with which he tries to cause us to doubt and disbelieve, although Christ came into this world to make us completely certain. For eventually either despair must follow or contempt for God, for the Holy Bible, for Baptism, and for all the blessings of God through which He wanted us to be strengthened over against uncertainty and doubt. For they will say with the Epicureans: “Let us live, eat, and drink; tomorrow we shall die” (cf. 1 Cor. 15:32). After the manner of the Turks they will rush rashly into the sword and fire, since the hour in which you either die or escape has been predetermined.

But to these thoughts one must oppose the true and firm knowledge of Christ, just as I often remind you that it is profitable and necessary above all that the knowledge of God be completely certain in us and that we cling to it with firm assent of the heart. Otherwise our faith is useless. For if God does not stand by His promises, then our salvation is lost, while, on the other hand, this is our comfort, that, although we change, we nevertheless flee for refuge to Him who is unchangeable. For in Mal. 3:6 He makes this assertion about Himself: “I the Lord do not change.” And Rom. 11:29 states: “The gifts and the call of God are irrevocable.” Accordingly, this is how I have taught in my book On the Bondage of the Will and elsewhere, namely, that a distinction must be made when one deals with the knowledge, or rather with the subject, of the divinity. For one must debate either about the hidden God or about the revealed God. With regard to God, insofar as He has not been revealed, there is no faith, no knowledge, and no understanding. And here one must hold to the statement that what is above us is none of our concern. For thoughts of this kind, which investigate something more sublime above or outside the revelation of God, are altogether devilish. With them nothing more is achieved than that we plunge ourselves into destruction; for they present an object that is inscrutable, namely, the unrevealed God. Why not rather let God keep His decisions and mysteries in secret? We have no reason to exert ourselves so much that these decisions and mysteries be revealed to us.

Moses, too, asked God to show him His face; but the Lord replies: “You shall see My back, but you will not be able to see My face” (cf. Ex. 33:23). For this inquisitiveness is original sin itself, by which we are impelled to strive for a way to God through natural speculation. But this is a great sin and a useless and futile attempt; for this is what Christ says in John 6:65 (cf. John 14:6): “No one comes to the Father but by Me.” Therefore when we approach the unrevealed God, then there is no faith, no Word, and no knowledge; for He is an invisible God, and you will not make Him visible.

Furthermore, God has most sternly forbidden this investigation of the divinity. Thus when the apostles ask in Acts 1:6, “Has it not been predestined that at this time the kingdom should be restored?” Christ says to them: “It is not for you to know the times” (Acts 1:7). “Let Me be hidden where I have not revealed Myself to you,” says God, “or you will be the cause of your own destruction, just as Adam fell in a horrible manner; for he who investigates My majesty will be overwhelmed by My glory.”

And it is true that God wanted to counteract this curiosity at the very beginning; for this is how He set forth His will and counsel: “I will reveal My foreknowledge and predestination to you in an extraordinary manner, but not by this way of reason and carnal wisdom, as you imagine. This is how I will do so: From an unrevealed God I will become a revealed God. Nevertheless, I will remain the same God. I will be made flesh, or send My Son. He shall die for your sins and shall rise again from the dead. And in this way I will fulfill your desire, in order that you may be able to know whether you are predestined or not. Behold, this is My Son; listen to Him (cf. Matt. 17:5). Look at Him as He lies in the manger and on the lap of His mother, as He hangs on the cross. Observe what He does and what He says. There you will surely take hold of Me.” For “He who sees Me,” says Christ, “also sees the Father Himself” (cf. John 14:9). If you listen to Him, are baptized in His name, and love His Word, then you are surely predestined and are certain of your salvation. But if you revile or despise the Word, then you are damned; for he who does not believe is condemned (Mark 16:16).

You must kill the other thoughts and the ways of reason or of the flesh, for God detests them. The only thing you have to do is to receive the Son, so that Christ is welcome in your heart in His birth, miracles, and cross. For here is the book of life in which you have been written. And this is the only and the most efficacious remedy for that horrible disease because of which human beings in their investigation of God want to proceed in a speculative manner and eventually rush into despair or contempt. If you want to escape despair, hatred, and blasphemy of God, give up your speculation about the hidden God, and cease to strive in vain to see the face of God.

Otherwise you will have to remain perpetually in unbelief and damnation, and you will have to perish; for he who doubts does not believe, and he who does not believe is condemned (Mark 16:16).

Therefore we should detest and shun these vicious words which the Epicureans bandy about: “If this is how it must happen, let it happen.” For God did not come down from heaven to make you uncertain about predestination, to teach you to despise the sacraments, absolution, and the rest of the divine ordinances. Indeed, He instituted them to make you completely certain and to remove the disease of doubt from your heart, in order that you might not only believe with the heart but also see with your physical eyes and touch with your hands. Why, then, do you reject these and complain that you do not know whether you have been predestined? You have the Gospel; you have been baptized; you have absolution; you are a Christian. Nevertheless, you doubt and say that you do not know whether you believe or not, whether you regard as true what is preached about Christ in the Word and the sacraments.

But you will say: “I cannot believe.” Thus many are troubled by this trial, and I recall that at Torgau a little woman came to me and complained with tears in her eyes that she could not believe. Then, when I recited the articles of the Creed in order and asked about each one whether she was convinced that these things were true and had happened in this manner or not, she answered: “I certainly think that they are true, but I cannot believe.” This was a satanic illusion. Consequently, I kept saying: “If you think that all these things are true, there is no reason why you should complain about your unbelief; for if you do not doubt that the Son of God died for you, you surely believe, because to believe is nothing else than to regard these facts as the sure and unquestionable truth.”

God says to you: “Behold, you have My Son. Listen to Him, and receive Him. If you do this, you are already sure about your faith and salvation.” “But I do not know,” you will say, “whether I am remaining in faith.” At all events, accept the present promise and the predestination, and do not inquire too curiously about the secret counsels of God. If you believe in the revealed God and accept His Word, He will gradually also reveal the hidden God; for “He who sees Me also sees the Father,” as John 14:9 says. He who rejects the Son also loses the unrevealed God along with the revealed God. But if you cling to the revealed God with a firm faith, so that your heart is so minded that you will not lose Christ even if you are deprived of everything, then you are most assuredly predestined, and you will understand the hidden God. Indeed, you understand Him even now if you acknowledge the Son and His will, namely, that He wants to reveal Himself to you, that He wants to be your Lord and your Savior. Therefore you are sure that God is also your Lord and Father.

Observe how pleasantly and kindly God delivers you from this horrible trial with which Satan besets people today in strange ways in order to make them doubtful and uncertain, and eventually even to alienate them from the Word. “For why should you hear the Gospel,” they say, “since everything depends on predestination?” In this way he robs us of the predestination guaranteed through the Son of God and the sacraments. He makes us uncertain where we are completely certain. And if he attacks timid consciences with this trial, they die in despair, as would almost have happened to me if Staupitz had not delivered me from the same trial when I was troubled. But if they are despisers, they become the worst Epicureans. Therefore we should rather impress these statements on our hearts, such as John 6:44: “No one can come to Me unless the Father draws him.” Through whom? Through Me. “He who sees Me also sees the Father” (cf. John 14:9). And God says to Moses: “You cannot see My face, for man shall not see Me and live” (Ex. 33:20). And we read (Acts 1:7): “It is not for you to know times or seasons which the Father has fixed by His own authority. But go, and carry out what I command.” Likewise (Ecclus. 3:22): “Seek not the things that are too high for you, and search not into things above your ability; but the things that God has commanded you, think on them always, and in many of His works be not curious.” Listen to the incarnate Son, and predestination will present itself of its own accord.

Staupitz used to comfort me with these words: “Why do you torture yourself with these speculations? Look at the wounds of Christ and at the blood that was shed for you. From these predestination will shine. Consequently, one must listen to the Son of God, who was sent into the flesh and appeared to destroy the work of the devil (1 John 3:8) and to make you sure about predestination. And for this reason He says to you: ‘You are My sheep because you hear My voice’ (cf. John 10:27). ‘No one shall snatch you out of My hands’ ” (cf. v. 28).

Many who did not resist this trial in such a manner were hurled headlong into destruction. Consequently, the hearts of the godly should be kept carefully fortified. Thus a certain hermit in The Lives of the Fathers advises his hearers against speculations of this kind. He says: “If you see that someone has put his foot in heaven, pull him back. For this is how saintly neophytes are wont to think about God apart from Christ. They are the ones who try to ascend into heaven and to place both feet there. But suddenly they are plunged into hell.” Therefore the godly should beware and be intent only on learning to cling to the Child and Son Jesus, who is your God and was made flesh for your sake. Acknowledge and hear Him; take pleasure in Him, and give thanks. If you have Him, then you also have the hidden God together with Him who has been revealed. And that is the only way, the truth, and the life (cf. John 14:6). Apart from it you will find nothing but destruction and death.

But He manifested himself in the flesh to snatch us from death, from the power of the devil. From this knowledge must come great joy and delight that God is unchangeable, that He works in accordance with unchangeable necessity, and that He cannot deny Himself (2 Tim. 2:13) but keeps His promises. Accordingly, one is not free to have such thoughts or doubts about predestination; but they are ungodly, vicious, and devilish. Therefore when the devil assails you with them, you should only say: “I believe in our Lord Jesus Christ, about whom I have no doubt that He was made flesh, suffered, and died for me. Into His death I have been baptized.” This answer will make the trial disappear, and Satan will turn his back.

Thus on other occasions I have often mentioned the noteworthy example of a nun who underwent the same trial. For under the papacy there were also many godly persons who experienced these spiritual trials, which are truly hellish and thoughts of the damned. For there is no difference at all between one who doubts and one who is damned. Therefore whenever the nun felt that she was being assailed with the fiery darts of Satan (cf. Eph. 6:16), she would say nothing else than this: “I am a Christian.”

We must do the same thing. One must refrain from debates and say: “I am a Christian; that is, the Son of God was made flesh and was born; He has redeemed me and is sitting at the right hand of the Father, and He is my Savior.” Thus you must drive Satan away from you with as few words as possible and say: “Begone, Satan! (Matt. 4:10.) Do not put doubt in me. The Son of God came into this world to destroy your work (1 John 3:8) and to destroy doubt.” Then the trial ceases, and the heart returns to peace, quiet, and the love of God.

Otherwise doubt about some person’s intention is no sin. Thus Isaac doubts that he will live or have a pious host. About a man I can be in doubt. Indeed, I should be in doubt. For he is not my Savior, and it is written (Ps. 146:3): “Put not your trust in princes.” For man is a liar (Ps. 116:11) and deceitful. But one cannot deal doubtfully with God. For He neither wants nor is able to be changeable or a liar. But the highest form of worship He requires is your conviction that He is truthful. For this is why He has given you the strongest proofs of His trustworthiness and truth. He has given His Son into the flesh and into death, and He has instituted the sacraments, in order that you may know that He does not want to be deceitful, but that He wants to be truthful. Nor does He confirm this with spiritual proofs; He confirms it with tangible proofs. For I see the water, I see the bread and the wine, and I see the minister. All this is physical, and in these material forms He reveals Himself. If you must deal with men, you may be in doubt as to the extent to which you may believe a person and as to how others may be disposed toward you; but concerning God you must maintain with assurance and without any doubt that He is well disposed toward you on account of Christ and that you have been redeemed and sanctified through the precious blood of the Son of God. And in this way you will be sure of your predestination, since all the prying and dangerous questions about GOD’S secret counsels have been removed—the questions to which Satan tries to drive us, just as he drove our first parents.

But how great would our first parent’s happiness have been if he had kept the Word of God carefully in sight and had eaten of all the other trees except the one from which he had been forbidden to eat! But he wanted to search out why God had forbidden him to enjoy the fruits from that one tree. In addition, there was Satan, the malicious teacher who increased and abetted this curiosity. Thus he was hurled headlong into sin and death.

Thus God reveals His will to us through Christ and the Gospel. But we loathe it and, in accordance with Adam’s example, take delight in the forbidden tree above all the others. This fault has been implanted in us by nature. When Paradise and heaven have been closed and the angel has been placed on guard there (cf. Gen. 3:24), we try in vain to enter. For Christ has truthfully said: “No one has ever seen God” (John 1:18). Nevertheless, God, in His boundless goodness, has revealed Himself to us in order to satisfy our desire. He has shown us a visible image. “Behold, you have My Son; he who hears Him and is baptized is written in the book of life. This I reveal through My Son, whom you can touch with your hands and look at with your eyes.”

I have wanted to teach and transmit this in such a painstaking and accurate way because after my death many will publish my books and will prove from them errors of every kind and their own delusions. Among other things, however, I have written that everything is absolute and unavoidable; but at the same time I have added that one must look at the revealed God, as we sing in the hymn: Er heist Jesu Christ, der HERR Zebaoth, und ist kein ander Gott, “Jesus Christ is the Lord of hosts, and there is no other God”—and also in very many other places. But they will pass over all these places and take only those that deal with the hidden God. Accordingly, you who are listening to me now should remember that I have taught that one should not inquire into the predestination of the hidden God but should be satisfied with what is revealed through the calling and through the ministry of the Word. For then you can be sure about your faith and salvation and say: “I believe in the Son of God, who said (John 3:36): ‘He who believes in the Son has eternal life.’ ” Hence no condemnation or wrath rests on him, but he enjoys the good pleasure of God the Father. But I have publicly stated these same things elsewhere in my books, and now I am also teaching them by word of mouth. Therefore I am excused.

(From the American Edition of Luther’s Works 5:43-50; Luther’s Genesis Commentary, commenting on Genesis 29:9).

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