WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 13, 2010 at 10:21pm

Hi David,

I'm starting to go cross eyed over this....;-)...trying to reconcile the two different views. I found John MacArthurs take on this.

The following "Question" was asked by a member of the congregation at Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, and "Answered" by their pastor, John MacArthur Jr. It was transcribed from the tape, GC 70-1, titled "Bible Questions and Answers." A copy of the tape can be obtained by writing, Word of Grace, P.O. Box 4000, Panorama City, CA 91412 or by dialing toll free 1-800-55-GRACE.

Question
I wasn't raised this way and I was just kind of curious about Predestination. I have heard back and forth that God had a plan. I was just curious about my family members that aren't saved, I thought, "Does God not choose them?"

Answer
I don't have time to go into the whole thing, just let me tell you this, are you a Christian? [Reply] "Yes." You're predestined. The point is this, when you saved you confirm the fact that you are chosen in Him before the foundation of the world, until then you don't know. So, you call them to Christ. The Bible teaches both things: Predestination and Human Choice. "You will not come to Me that you might have life," Jesus said. "How often I would have gathered you as a hen gathers her brood, but you would not, O Jerusalem, Jerusalem." So, then you have "chosen in Him, before the foundation of the world."

So, you have both doctrines; they coexist together--you leave them there. You try to harmonize them you will get into a lot of trouble. If you try to rationalize them you will find yourself under the bed saying the Greek alphabet. You can't harmonize them, you just have to teach both of them. See, it is like two opposite truths that have to coexist. It is the same thing that you have with Christ: Christ is God and man. What is He, half-God and half-man? No, He is all-God and all-man, you can't be that, but we believe He is. If somebody asks you, "Who wrote the Book of Romans?" and you say "Paul," and I say, "The Holy Spirit,"--we are both right. If somebody says, "Who lives your Christian life?" you say, "I do, I grit my teeth and beat my body into subjection and live it," somebody else says, "Not I, but Christ lives in me,"--both.

See, you have the same kind of divine tension in all doctrine, because when you reduce God to man something is left out and we can't fill in the gap, so all we know is that if we are saved it is because God has chosen us, predestinated us before the foundation of the world, and if we are not saved it is because we refuse Jesus Christ.

http://www.biblebb.com/macqa.htm

Paul Washer says this:

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 16, 2010 at 12:38am

Maggie,

>>sorry but you cant make 1 john 2:2 mean the elect.

This is the way we understand texts like 1 John 2:2 which says, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." This does not mean that Christ died with the intention to appease the wrath of God for every person in the world, but that the "sheep," "the children of God" scattered throughout the whole world, "from every tongue and tribe and people and nation" are intended by the propitiation ['satisfaction' or 'appeasement' ] of Christ. In fact the grammatical parallel between John 11:51-52 and 1 John 2:2 is so close it is difficult to escape the conviction that the same thing is intended by John in both verses.

There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God's people, not for every individual. For example:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.

In John 17:6,9,19 Jesus prays, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine...And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." The consecration in view here is the death of Jesus which he is about to undergo. His death and his intercession us uniquely for his disciples, not for the world in general.

John 11:51-52, " being high priest that year prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." There are children of God scattered throughout the world. These are the sheep. These are the ones the Father will draw to the Son. Jesus died to gather these people into one. The point is the same as John 10:15-16, "I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice." Christ died for his sheep, that is, for the children of God.

Revelation 5:9, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." In accordance with John 10:16 John does not say that the death of Christ ransomed all men but that it ransomed men from all the tribes of the world.

These inserts are from the article I posted before by John Piper.

Blessings sis.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 16, 2010 at 1:24pm

If there is any person out there that wants to come to Christ, they can. His blood will cover their sins. However, He does not guarantee the salvation of all mankind. His blood is a propitiation for only those that come to Him. I don't think there is any dispute on this matter, at least I know of none. It is to whoever believes in Him.

Roy

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on August 13, 2010 at 7:56pm

David,

It frightens me when you agree with me. LOL
What you have said makes sense as we sould only ever preach salvation to new believers.
How easy it would be as per Spurgeon's comments. haha
Turn around and lift up your shirts for a "E" for an elect or a "C" for a Calvinist or an "A" for an Arminianist. It would certainly take the mystery out of God's calling.

I have a very simplistic view of salvation and I certainly don't like to complicate the issue by including differing doctrines etc when speaking with nonbelievers or people that are newly looking at the faith.
It's not that I disagree with much of what you have posted here, it is more a case of do I need it to have salvation. It does make an interesting read, I have to admit.

Whether we are an A, C, E or whatever, as long as we are all pointed in the one direction, Jesus Christ,
Believe on Him, that is all that matters.

blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 17, 2010 at 5:10am

Rv 3:20
20 Here I am! I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in and eat with him, and he with me.
NIV


Jn 10:3-4 He calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. 4 When he has brought out all his own, he goes on ahead of them, and his sheep follow him because they know his voice. NIV

Same Lord! His sheep will hear His voice. If you are hearing His voice, just open the door and He will do the rest - it is irresistible. The call of the Lord is the most beautiful sound.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 17, 2010 at 7:27pm

Maggie,

Revelation 3:20. Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him and he [will dine] with me.”

The key phrase to consider is: "I shall come in to him."

Jesus is the one knocking and He is the one going in. Is all Jesus. But the question we should be asking is who is He talking to and about?. Is he talking about the lost world? We use this verse to teach that Jesus is knocking on the hearts of all humans and those that hear Him will open the door.

Jesus was speaking to His Church, not the lost world. To those in the Laodicean church. Were they not believers? In the preceding verse, the resurrected Lord declares, "Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline."

Here filevw is used for "love"--a word that is never used of God/Jesus loving unbelievers in the NT. It would be impossible for God to have this kind of love for an unbeliever, for it routinely speaks of enjoyment and fellowship. "Be zealous, therefore, and repent." The word ("therefore") connects the two parts of the verse, indicating that the Laodiceans are to repent because Christ loves them!

Also beloved, is worthy to note that Jesus is coming in to, not into. One means to come in to the house, the other means to come into the person. So the verse to me is saying, I will come in to where the person is. Not into the person. He is coming in to him (where the person is) to dine with him. Not into the person, as penetrating the person.

My friend whether you want to admit it or not, We are all influence by what we have heard or been taught. When we are confronted with the fact that to truly understand the word of God, we need to completely depend on the Spirit of the Lord and something erase our preconceived notions about the text, I know you know this Maggie but I do not grow weary of reminding all of us of these truths, we realize it takes studying the word to understand it. A light reading of scripture is not going to cut it.

So having the above info, what is this verse telling us? it is not offering salvation, that is not what the verse is doing.

Daniel Wallace states the following:

>>What, then, is this verse is affirming? First, it is not an offering of salvation. The implications of this are manifold. Among other things, to use this text as a salvation verse is a perversion of the simplicity of the gospel. Many people have allegedly "received Christ into their hearts" without understanding what that means or what the gospel means. Although this verse is picturesque, it actually muddies the waters of the truth of salvation. Reception of Christ is a consequence, not a condition, of salvation.4 Second, as far as the positive meaning of this verse, it may refer to Christ having supremacy in the assembly or even to an invitation (and, consequently, a reminder) to believers to share with him in the coming kingdom. Either way, it is not a verse about salvation at all, for the Laodiceans were already saved.

Does this mean that those who have come to faith in Christ via Rev 3:20 are not saved? This answer needs some nuancing. First, if they have truly put their faith in Christ, and they understand that he alone can save them from their sins, then of course they are saved. The problem is that many people cling to the symbol but never understand the reality it is intended to represent. Most likely, tens of thousands of people have "invited Christ into [their] hearts," thinking that a mystical experience is what saves them. Then, they go on their merry way, living their lives as they did before. If you were to ask them, "How do you know that you are going to heaven?" they would respond, "Because I invited Christ into my heart." But if you probe, there is nothing beneath the shallowness of that reply. They did what someone told them to do, but never really embraced the Savior.

Blessings beloved

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 14, 2010 at 12:17am

My beloved Maggie,

One can think of it in the manner you have, but we do preach predestination, which is a biblical term and election, which is also a biblical concept. But when I am among unbelievers who do not understand Spiritual matters is not the appropriate time. I can preach it successfully to unbelievers, but chose to simply estate that one must repent and believe in our Lord and His atoning death on the cross for our sins.

However Jesus did not tip toe doing it and neither do we. When Nicodemus asked Jesus how a man is born again in John 3, Jesus states 5Jesus answered, "I tell you the truth, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless he is born of water and the Spirit. 6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit[b] gives birth to spirit. 7 You should not be surprised at my saying, 'You must be born again.' 8The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." Jesus does not tell Nicodemus pray this way or is according to your will and decision, but leaves us to ask, what in the world is He talking about - 8 The wind blows wherever it pleases. You hear its sound, but you cannot tell where it comes from or where it is going. So it is with everyone born of the Spirit." What He is telling Nic is, look being born again is not up to you, but up to the Spirit that goes and comes as He pleases. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Salvation is completely the work of God.

So election depends on human choice? Jesus says it doesn’t.
I think you are a bright thinker, but the articles I posted and this interpretation of scripture does take prayerful consideration. Take these issues to the Lord in prayer and asked for Him to reveal the truth to you. As Roy has also shared with you, the death of Christ did not only make salvation available for those that will believe, but it actually saved those that would believe. If we say Christ died for the world (which in a way He did, because the elect are throughout the world) and pay for their sins then why is anybody going to hell?

To do justice to the Arminian Camp I will, God willing, place two articles at the end of this discussion soon. One will be the best article I found supporting prevenient grace. Another will be a good article refuting Calvinism, specifically refuting limited atonement and the doctrine of election.
Previnient Grace is the Arminian answer to the question: how does a Spiritual dead person respond to the Gospel, the invitation to come to Christ?

prevenient grace
1. (Christianity, theology) An Arminian doctrine distinctive to Methodism and the broader Wesleyan movement. It holds that man is so fallen that he is utterly incapable of perceiving the need for salvation, but God, in His infinite wisdom, has preveniently extended to humankind sufficient grace that we can, through free will, willingly accept salvation.
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/prevenient_grace

Adverb
preveniently
1. In a prevenient manner. Anticipatorily, antecedently.

Grace:
Grace is usually defined as unmerited favor. Another way to express this is to contrast it with mercy. Mercy is God withholding what we deserve; Grace is God giving us what we don’t deserve. Grace is the free favor of God by which He has in Christ provided a way of salvation, and enabled man in Christ to embrace that way...It is a supernatural gift of God to man, given for supernatural purposes, and bestowed freely for the sake of Christ’s merits. Salvation by grace requires the absence of merit for salvation.

Previnient Grace in a nutshell is the following:

Man is unable to respond to God due to being totally depraved. The word “depraved" does not mean that we are all hideous sinners. We are, but sin has different moral levels. Killing a person and stilling a candy are both sins, but morally killing a person has deeper implications and carries rightly so more serious consequences both with man and with God. Totally depravity means that every area of the human being has been affected by sin. Our minds, our soul and our bodies. So humans are completely lost and dead, so what happens that a person that was blind can have the ability to choose Christ. The Arminian says. God by grace brings conviction to the heart of a man as the Gospel is being preached and by the work of the Holy Spirit a window of time per se is open so the person can exercise their free will to chose or reject the conviction of the Spirit. Sounds great. Sounds scriptural. Believe and be saved.

I will touch as I post those articles where the problems rise in that logic.

Blessing beloved.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 17, 2010 at 5:30am

When you are preaching to unbelievers, you don't know who will respond and who will not. Determining that is not your responsibility. Your responsibility is to preach Jesus to them. The Holy Spirit already knows who will respond. He will work on that person's heart and bring him to salvation. He does not allow us to assume the work of His Spirit. Peter preached on the day of Pentecost and 3,000 souls responded. We may speak to one person and that one person may or may not respond. It is not our responsibility to save them, but only to present Jesus to them as the way unto God.

1 Pe 2:1-6
2:1 Therefore, rid yourselves of all malice and all deceit, hypocrisy, envy, and slander of every kind. 2 Like newborn babies, crave pure spiritual milk , so that by it you may grow up in your salvation, 3 now that you have tasted that the Lord is good.

4 As you come to him, the living Stone — rejected by men but chosen by God and precious to him— 5 you also, like living stones, are being built into a spiritual house to be a holy priesthood, offering spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. NIV

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 12, 2010 at 3:02am

Margaret-

I have seen your other posts and I am not ignoring them or anyone else's. This topic is very extensive and in order to do it justice to it I need to sit down and really think about what I am sharing. So bear with me you all, there is not enough time in the day to do all we want to do. So many good topics and discussions here.

I could not wait to respond to this particular post. I am sorry you are distress beloved. Maybe I can clarify what is meant when one identifies himself with a particular theological school. Really there is only two ways to view the doctrines of Grace. The Arminian way or the Calvinist way. There are plenty of scriptures to back up each one.

There are folks who fall into unhealthy extremes and pledge alliance to a system of theology more than to the word of God. So it is unfortunate that we have those in our day who do seem to follow men rather than Jesus. However I think and hope that is a small number. The majority of folks that say I am an Arminian or a Calvinist are not saying, I follow Arminian or Calvin. Rather they are saying. I follow Christ and Christ alone and do follow Godly men who the Lord has placed in my life as well. However I agree with Arminians' interpretation or Calvin’s' interpretation of the doctrines of salvation, the doctrines of Grace.

There is nothing wrong with identifying ourselves as an Arminian or Calvinist in theology. It is a quick way for people to understand where you stand and what you believe.

Hope this helps - Luv you.

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 13, 2010 at 1:16pm

Hey sis Maggie,

I could use my own words, but why when there are articles that say it better than I can without the spelling errors haha

Atonement: 1. Amends or reparation made for an injury or wrong; expiation.
2.
a. Reconciliation or an instance of reconciliation between God and humans.
b. Atonement Christianity The reconciliation of God and humans brought about by the redemptive life and death of Jesus.

For Whom Did Christ Die?
& What Did Christ Actually Achieve on the Cross for Those for Whom He Died?
By John Piper

The term "limited atonement" addresses the question, "For whom did Christ die?" But behind the question of the extent of the atonement lies the equally important question about the nature of the atonement. What did Christ actually achieve on the cross for those for whom he died?

If you say that he died for every human being in the same way, then you have to define the nature of the atonement very differently than you would if you believed that Christ only died for those who actually believe. In the first case you would believe that the death of Christ did not actually save anybody; it only made all men savable. It did not actually remove God's punitive wrath from anyone, but instead created a place where people could come and find mercy -- IF they could accomplish their own new birth and bring themselves to faith without the irresistible grace of God.

For if Christ died for all men in the same way then he did not purchase regenerating grace for those who are saved. They must regenerate themselves and bring themselves to faith. Then and only then do they become partakers of the benefits of the cross.
In other words if you believe that Christ died for all men in the same way, then the benefits of the cross cannot include the mercy by which we are brought to faith, because then all men would be brought to faith, but they aren't. But if the mercy by which we are brought to faith (irresistible grace) is not part of what Christ purchased on the cross, then we are left to save ourselves from the bondage of sin, the hardness of heart, the blindness of corruption, and the wrath of God.

Therefore it becomes evident that it is not the Calvinist who limits the atonement. It is the Arminian, because he denies that the atoning death of Christ accomplishes what we most desperately need -- namely, salvation from the condition of deadness and hardness and blindness under the wrath of God. The Arminian limits the nature and value and effectiveness of the atonement so that he can say that it was accomplished even for those who die in unbelief and are condemned. In order to say that Christ died for all men in the same way, the Arminian must limit the atonement to a powerless opportunity for men to save themselves from their terrible plight of depravity.

On the other hand we do not limit the power and effectiveness of the atonement. We simply say that in the cross God had in view the actual redemption of his children. And we affirm that when Christ died for these, he did not just create the opportunity for them to save themselves, but really purchased for them all that was necessary to get them saved, including the grace of regeneration and the gift of faith.

We do not deny that all men are the intended beneficiaries of the cross in some sense. 1 Timothy 4:10 says that Christ is "the Savior of all men, especially of those who believe." What we deny is that all men are intended as the beneficiaries of the death of Christ in the same way. All of God's mercy toward unbelievers -- from the rising sun (Matthew 5:45) to the worldwide preaching of the gospel (John 3:16) -- is made possible because of the cross.

This is the implication of Romans 3:25 where the cross is presented as the basis of God's righteousness in passing over sins. Every breath that an unbeliever takes is an act of God's mercy withholding judgment (Romans 2:4). Every time the gospel is preached to unbelievers it is the mercy of God that gives this opportunity for salvation.

Whence does this mercy flow to sinners? How is God just to withhold judgment from sinners who deserve to be immediately cast into hell? The answer is that Christ's death so clearly demonstrates God's just abhorrence of sin that he is free to treat the world with mercy without compromising his righteousness. In this sense Christ is the savior of all men. But he is especially the Savior of those who believe. He did not die for all men in the same sense. The intention of the death of Christ for the children of God was that it purchase far more than the rising sun and the opportunity to be saved. The death of Christ actually saves from ALL evil those for whom Christ died "especially."

There are many Scriptures which say that the death of Christ was designed for the salvation of God's people, not for every individual. For example:

John 10:15, "I lay down my life for the sheep." The sheep of Christ are those whom the Father draws to the Son. "You do not believe, because you do not belong to my sheep." Notice: being a sheep enables you to become a believer, not vice versa. So the sheep for whom Christ dies are the ones chosen by the Father to give to the Son.

In John 17:6,9,19 Jesus prays, "I have manifested thy name to the men whom thou gavest me out of the world; thine they were, and thou gavest them to me...I am praying for them; I am not praying for the world but for those whom thou hast given me, for they are thine...And for their sake I consecrate myself, that they also may be consecrated in truth." The consecration in view here is the death of Jesus which he is about to undergo. His death and his intercession us uniquely for his disciples, not for the world in general.

John 11:51-52, " being high priest that year prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad." There are children of God scattered throughout the world. These are the sheep. These are the ones the Father will draw to the Son. Jesus died to gather these people into one. The point is the same as John 10:15-16, "I lay down my life for the sheep. And I have other sheep that are not of this fold; I must bring them also, and they will heed my voice." Christ died for his sheep, that is, for the children of God.

Revelation 5:9, "Worthy art thou to take the scroll and to open its seals, for thou wast slain and by thy blood didst ransom men for God from every tribe and tongue and people and nation." In accordance with John 10:16 John does not say that the death of Christ ransomed all men but that it ransomed men from all the tribes of the world.

This is the way we understand texts like 1 John 2:2 which says, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world." This does not mean that Christ died with the intention to appease the wrath of God for every person in the world, but that the "sheep," "the children of God" scattered throughout the whole world, "from every tongue and tribe and people and nation" are intended by the propitiation of Christ. In fact the grammatical parallel between John 11:51-52 and 1 John 2:2 is so close it is difficult to escape the conviction that the same thing is intended by John in both verses.

John 11:51-52, "He prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation, and not for the nation only, but to gather into one the children of God who are scattered abroad."

1 John 2:2, "He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world."

The "whole world" refers to the children of God scattered throughout the whole world.
If "the whole world" referred to every individual in the world, we would be forced to say that John is teaching that all people will be saved, which he does not believe (Revelation 14:9-11). The reason we would be forced to say this is that the term propitiation refers to a real removal of wrath from sinners. When God's wrath against a sinner is propitiated, it is removed from that sinner. And the result is that all God's power now flows in the service of his mercy, with the result that nothing can stop him from saving that sinner.

Propitiated sins cannot be punished. Otherwise propitiation loses its meaning. Therefore if Christ is the propitiation for all the sins of every individual in the world, they cannot be punished, and must be saved. But John does not believe in such universalism (John 5:29). Therefore it is very unlikely that 1 John 2:2 teaches that Jesus is the propitiation of every person in the world.

Mark 10:45, in accord with Revelation 5:9,does not say that Jesus came to ransom all men. It says, "For the Son of man also came not to be served but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many."

Similarly in Matthew 26:28 Jesus says, "This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins."

Hebrews 9:28, "So Christ, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, will appear a second time, not deal with sin but to save those who are eagerly waiting for him." (See also 13:20; Isaiah 53:11-12.)

One of the clearest passages on the intention of the death of Christ is Ephesians 5:25-27. Here Paul not only says that the intended beneficiary of the death of Christ is the Church, but also that the intended effect of the death of Christ is the sanctification and glorification of the church. This is the truth we want very much to preserve: that the cross was not intended to give all men the opportunity to save themselves, but was intended to actually save the church.

Paul says, "Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her, that he might sanctify her, having cleansed her by the washing of water with the word, that he might present the church to himself in splendor."

Similarly in Titus 2:14 Paul describes the purpose of Christ's death like this: "He gave himself for us to redeem us from all iniquity and to purify for himself a people of his own who are zealous for good deeds." If Paul were an Arminian would he not have said, "He gave himself to redeem all men from iniquity and purify all men for himself"? But Paul says that the design of the atonement is to purify for Christ a people out from the world. This is just what John said in John 10:15; 11:51f; and Revelation 5:9.

One of the most crucial texts on this issue is Romans 8:32. It is one of the most precious promises for God's people in all the Bible. Paul says, "He who did not spare his own Son but gave him up for us all, will he not also give us all things with him?"

The crucial thing to see here is how Paul bases the certainty of our inheritance on the death of Christ. He says, "God will most certainly give you all things because he did not spare his own Son but gave him up for you." What becomes of this precious argument if Christ is given for those who do not in fact receive all things but instead are lost? The argument vanishes.
If God gave his own Son for unbelievers who in the end are lost, then he cannot say that the giving of the Son guarantees "all things" for the those for whom he died. But this is what he does say! If God gave his Son for you, then he most certainly will give you all things. The structure of Paul's thought here is simply destroyed by introducing the idea that Christ died for all men in the same way.

We can conclude this section with the following summary argument. Which of these statements is true?
1. Christ died for some of the sins of all men.
2. Christ died for all the sins of some men.
3. Christ died for all the sins of all men.

No one says that the first is true, for then all would be lost because of the sins that Christ did not die for. The only way to be saved from sin is for Christ to cover it with his blood.
The third statement is what the Arminians would say. Christ died for all the sins of all men. But then why are not all saved? They answer, Because some do not believe. But is this unbelief not one of the sins for which Christ died? If they say yes, then why is it not covered by the blood of Jesus and all unbelievers saved? If they say no (unbelief is not a sin that Christ has died for) then they must say that men can be saved without having all their sins atoned for by Jesus, or they must join us in affirming statement number two: Christ died for all the sins of some men. That is, he died for the unbelief of the elect so that God's punitive wrath is appeased toward them and his grace is free to draw them irresistibly out of darkness into his marvelous light.

Taken From What We Believe About the Five Points of Calvinism Bethlehem Baptist Church Staff

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 15, 2010 at 6:46am

Linda,

It doesn't make you a Calvinist, it makes you free. I wish we could lose this label. To you, God is sovereign and now you know this sovereign God is your Father. Satan will challenge you - a lot at first. If there is one thing he doesn't want you to have, it is freedom. Stay in His Word. It is Word that sets us free. When this discussion fades away, you will still have His Word. There are so many people out there in bondage. God will lead you to the ones that are ready for freedom. It will be difficult for them to grasp as they all know how evil they are. They will never understand why God chose them. However, His Word will set them free. What He says is undeniable to those ready to receive it. Sometimes I think some of us just can't go on living without knowing this truth. If so, I was one of those persons. He had no choice but to reveal this to me as I was bugging Him so much.

We are so blessed,
Roy

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 11, 2010 at 11:13am

I'm reading and praying through Romans 9 and 10.

Romans 9 has to do with God's selection of Israel. We see this in Genesis 25:21-23
Gen 25:21 Isaac prayed to the LORD on behalf of his wife, because she was barren; and the LORD [fn] answered him and Rebekah his wife conceived.


Gen 25:22 But the children struggled together within her; and she said, "If it is so, why then am I this way?" So she went to inquire of the LORD.


Gen 25:23 The LORD said to her, "Two nations are in your womb; And two peoples will be separated from your body; And one people shall be stronger than the other; And the older shall serve the younger."

Romans 10:11-13 says
For the scripture says, "WHOEVER BELIEVES IN HIM WILL NOT BE DISAPPOINTED."
For their is no distinction between Jew and Greek, for the same Lord is Lord of all, abounding in riches for all who call on Him; for "WHOEVER WILL CALL ON THE NAME OF THE LORD WILL BE SAVED."

Then scripture goes on to says this....
Romans 10:14
How then will they call on Him in whom they have not believed? How will they believe in Him whom they have not heard? And how will they hear without a preacher?
verse 15
How will they preach unless they are sent?.....(cont'd below)

perhaps the idea of this 'God chooses some over others' is more that ...once we become a believer, it is our responsibility (all believers) to tell others about Jesus....using the gifts and talents God gives us. We need to all be living the gospel by our example, and declaring the message. The believers of today are accountable to God to be praying for all people who are lost, and to have beautiful feet...Just as the believers who have gone before us declared the message in surrender, obedience and Love...so that ALL may believe. Jesus is Savior AND Lord.

Romans 10:15 finishes off saying this...Just as it is written, "HOW BEAUTIFUL ARE THE FEET OF THOSE WHO BRING GOOD NEWS OF GOOD THINGS.

Rom 10:16 However, they did not all heed the [fn] good news; for Isaiah says, "LORD, WHO HAS BELIEVED OUR REPORT?"
Rom 10:17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing by the word [fn] of Christ.
Rom 10:18 But I say, surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have; "THEIR VOICE HAS GONE OUT INTO ALL THE EARTH, AND THEIR WORDS TO THE ENDS OF THE [fn] WORLD."
Rom 10:19 But I say, surely Israel did not know, did they? First Moses says, "I WILL MAKE YOU JEALOUS BY THAT WHICH IS NOT A NATION, BY A NATION WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WILL I ANGER YOU."
Rom 10:20 And Isaiah is very bold and says, "I WAS FOUND BY THOSE WHO DID NOT SEEK ME, I BECAME MANIFEST TO THOSE WHO DID NOT ASK FOR ME."
Rom 10:21 But as for Israel He says, "ALL THE DAY LONG I HAVE STRETCHED OUT MY HANDS TO A DISOBEDIENT AND OBSTINATE PEOPLE."

Romans 10:20 shows us that it is God's Will to reach out to the gentiles...AS A NATION... and individuals.

I think we should do away with all of the ism's...

I believe we are totally depraved...I also believe that we have nothing good in us to seek after God on our own. We need to be praying...I believe that it is God who does the work in us of faith..HE Sanctifies us once we are surrendered and obedient... But I don't think we need this calvinism vs armenism theology.

God goes before us and prepares hearts..God also hardens hearts... But those hearts are hardened because a person has continually rejected the Lord. God does choose whom He has mercy on...His thoughts are not our thoughts, and His ways are not our ways... God will not reject a person who has a genuine heart to cry out to Him and admit their need for HIm...

How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news of good things...This is far more beautiful than a pedicure (sorry couldn't resist that last comment) ;-)

Blessings and Love in Christ, Carla

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• 2
• 3
• 4
• 5
• 6
• …
• 14
• Next ›
• Page