WHAT IS ARMINIANISM AND CALVINISM

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 3:39pm

Linda,

When my wife and I begin to homeschool, it was actually against the law in this state. It was very difficult but we felt it was important. Today, we celebrate our 42nd anniversary and we have five grown kids with 13 grandkids (my younger two sons are married but have not started producing yet) and all are very actively serving the Lord. We are not rich but we would not change our decision for anything. Our homeschool did turn into a Christian school and we have had the privilege of teaching young children in the Gospel of our Lord Jesus for thirty years. By the way, we do not teach Calvinism or Arminianism. We leave that up to the churches.

I shared that statement from John Wesley with a Wesleyan church one time and almost got run out of the church. Oh well. Our life has been wonderful. We are so grateful to our Lord.

I guess that's not the only thing crazy about me, however. The other is that I give 100% credit for my salvation and take none for myself. However, I think you only take just a little bit of credit. ha ha.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 4:07pm

I am confident the Lord will keep your children. As important as this discussion is, can you imagine what is being taught to our children on a daily basis? I don't think people really understand how damaging the secular doctrines of philosophy are. No wonder we are losing around 70 to 80% of our children once they leave the Christian home. Shame on us. The greatest commandment to the Christian home is to teach our children first.

However, I know there are those who have lost their children to the secular gospel being taught and I could only imagine their pain. Our children are our greatest assets. I pray all the children will come home to Christ.

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 4:54pm

Linda,

This is a response to your last question: Well, it's close but not quite there. However, I wouldn't worry about it. I think you are saying that the Lord knows beforehand what their decision will be. I guess that is leaving it a little too much to chance for me. I believe God will honor His Word when we do what He says and save our children. I am more grateful for your attitude to your children than I am concerned how much of a Calvinist you are.

The education of our children has been by life calling. I think my wife and I are in the latter stages of that calling but I really don't know. God may have me involved for another decade. I now have grandkids in our school. What a glorious heritage God has given us. I agree. There is nothing more precious than our children.

Roy

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 10, 2010 at 4:56pm

All,

I pray you all have a great discussion on this forum tonight. I am taking my wife out for our 42nd wedding anniversary. Have a great discussion.

Roy

Permalink Reply by JB on August 10, 2010 at 11:32pm

Brother Roy and David, I hope you both know that I love you guy’s and all that are on this forum. “BUT”

“Quote”
Can he believe in Him and not be saved?
Sure!
Just because they believe in Him, doesn’t mean they have accepted Him as their Lord and Savior. There are several different words for receive-[ing] Some will receive the idea that there is a God, Some will receive Him as their savior, they are saved, Now there are those that receive Him to the point that they have become an “associate” in other words they are part of Him, they have accepted or received the fact that they are one with Him, they are carrying on the Work that Jesus was doing, laying hands on the sick, living a fasted life, as in Isa. 58:1-14, So there are different ways of receiving the Word, Jesus, Christ, The Holy Ghost, God, or the God Head.
People receive me, as a friend, but not as their provider, helper etc.
But to be received into their business as an associate, then I have become part of their lives or business and have authority to function as an owner. We are to function here on earth as Kings and Priests unto God. As New Creation folks. Not as mere or natural men.

Does man have the ability to choose God?

I would have to say “no emphatically ” not until he has been ‘called’ by God’s Grace!
Called! Is not a special calling,; as to a ministry or to be an evangelist or to some special calling in life. It is an invitation, it’s used particularly of the Divine call to partake of the blessings of redemption.
As in Rom.8:30, it is a bidding, as Vines puts it. I used to explain it like this, there is an old song we used to sing, of course I am from Missouri and it went something like this, (Missouriiii… I hear you calling me;) See Missouri doesn’t have a voice, but what it does have is the beautiful hills, lakes trees etc. This is a drawing on the heart, a lot of people are drawn to the mountains of Colo. Or even some are called, or drawn to the desert. Some are called, or drawn to playing instruments of various types, Why? I really don’t know, but it is something in a person that excites him or that makes him desire certain things. However it does say in
Psalms 37:4
Delight thyself also in the LORD; and he shall give thee the “desires” of thine heart.

Every body is not called, or have a desire to preach, teach, or to be an evangelist etc. Every body has been called, or invited, but every body has and will not come or receive Him. So it is with God and His Word; He drew us to Him by the gospel of His Word, that is the Grace of God that is drawing you, His word, it is the goodness of God that draws men to repentance,
It actually says that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance.
Ro. 2:4. I have seen it happen many times before: while ministering to a person and I lift up the Name of Jesus, “meaning His character or authority” God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on Him shall not perish, but have everlasting life. And when they hear that they were loved and could be saved, you could see their whole countenance change, That is the Grace of God in action, that is that drawing on their heart, now by faith {conviction and or persuasion by the Holy Spirit} they will receive Him as their savior.

A Desire, a Calling, Faith, Grace, Vocation, all have the same function, or is the same thing, it is a drawing, a conviction or a persuasion on the heart.

So you see; it is by His Grace that He draws you to Him, So by Grace are ye saved, through Faith, He draws you , but you must respond to that calling, or wooing, of the Holy Spirit. You have an option, to accept or reject, but who would reject such a plan of salvation? For it is God that worketh in you, both to will and to do of His good pleasure. Phil.2:13

I really don’t know how you all understand grace; But as I have said before ,”grace alone will not save you“, if it would then everyone would be saved. The same principle applies to your healing, certainly God’s grace is sufficient to heal or deliver you, but without faith it is not going to happen, if it did, then for God to heal one and not the other would make Him a respecter of persons, and He plainly says that He is not. Acts 10:34, As the old song goes, “what He has done for others He will do for you“. Instead of looking at it “He will do for you” should be what “He has done” for others, “He has done for you“, indicating that it is and was a completed work at the cross, He does not have to come back and shed His blood again to save either one of us, or to heal us. It was a completed work and it is for whosoever will have faith for it. Think of the antithesis of that, what happens to those that “will not” or “does not”? Like those that love darkness rather than light? And they will not come to the light. “A choice they have made” Choose you this day whom you will serve, He did not say who you believe, but who you will serve.
What about those in James 1:12-15 Blessed is the man that endureth temptation: for when he is tried, he shall receive the crown of life, which the Lord hath promised to them that love him.

When does he receive the crown of life? Is God, just by His grace going to give it to him? I believe God and His Word more than the conjectures of man.

Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
But every man is tempted, when he is “drawn away” of his own lust, and enticed.
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.

Is this death a cessation of physical life, or is it the second death, total seperation from God, eternal death?

Joe

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 11, 2010 at 2:35am

Good Early Morning Joe,

Jesus said:

Jn 3:16-18 "For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17 For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son. NIV

Jesus said whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life. This is the kind of believing I was referring to. Can a man believe and not be saved? You are talking about a different kind of believing. I understand what you are saying. However, until a man believes in his heart who Jesus is, he cannot be saved. Before a man can believe something must happen to him. In these chapter, it appears that a man must be born again first, an act of the Spirit that blows where ever It wills.

Once a man believes, he is saved from perishing.

Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 12, 2010 at 2:31pm

Rita -

I believed as you have explained predestination at one point for a very long time. Looking at verses such as Romans 9

11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad—in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12 not by works but by him who calls—she was told, "The older will serve the younger." 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses, "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."16 It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Predestination is taught by the Arminian camp to mean that God uses His foreknowledge to choose those that He knows in the future will choose Him. That is not what God is saying though. Actually I have not found one verse that says that. If anyone out there can find a verse that states that we are chosen by God because He knows we will chose Him in the future please share it with me.

The word does teach in many places that God's election is not dependent on anything man does, will do or desires/wills. Before the foundations of the earth God already had chosen does He would give grace and those He would leave to their own. As the creator that is his prerogative. No one can come to the father unless they go through the Son and no one can come to the Son unless the Lord gives them to Him. (John 6: 44). Verse 11 states "...in order that God's purpose in election might stand." God has purposes and hence He is the one that chooses what happens and when. He is the one that gives mercy to who He wants to.

>>He didn't pick or choose any one

Sis, many are called but few are chosen. Who does the choosing? And who does the calling in Romans 8:29-30?

>>Our final destination is based on the choices we make.

The word teaches that we are all dead in our trespasses and sins, so how can we choose God. When God says that none seek after Him? Not one. Romans 3.

>>Because if He were, there would be no free choice.

Before we are saved are free will is only inclined to sin. After we are saved our free will remains as far as God allows, but we belong to him for He bought us with the Blood of Christ. We never truly have free will. Only God has complete free will.

Permalink Reply by Rod Askew on August 11, 2010 at 12:34am

Hi Margaret,

I needed to clarify what I was trying to say before and therefore deleted my original response to you. sorry if that is confusing.
What I was saying was that we should be careful when preaching a predestined theology to new believers as they may look at a "God already knows who is saved doctrine" and turn away feeling their situation is hopeless.
A murderer, adulterer etc hearing that God had already chosen the saved and knows who they are could be discouraging to them

I hope that it makes sense this time around.
Blessings
Rod

Permalink Reply by RoyW on August 11, 2010 at 3:12am

Margaret,

The majority of people in the Evangelical ranks believe that God knows in advance those who will choose Him. The character of God is that He knows all. In this case there would not be limited atonement in the sense that you are speaking of.

However, when you really think of it, the only ones that receive the benefit of Christ's death on the cross are those who by some happening believe in Him. The others are eternally lost. I really don't see a problem with someone saying that the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross only applies to those who are trusting in Him for their salvation. It does not negate the idea that salvation is for all.

However, in reform theology, the substitutionary work of Christ on the cross is limited to those who God has foreordained to be one of His. This is the issue of the discussion going on here. I don't think the issue of foreknowledge is coming into question. The Armenian view is that God chooses those He foreknows will come to Him. The Calvinist believes that man will never choose to come to Him until He knows Him. They believe that God must do a work in his heart first. They believe that salvation is all of God and none of man.

Let me also say in response to some. There are all kinds of religions in the world. There is a sense in man that there must be a god of some kind somewhere. Many of those come to the Christian religion and are working at being saved just as many go to other religions and are working to be saved. What separates true salvation from works salvation is faith in one's heart that Jesus is exactly Who He said He was.

My question is: where does this faith come from? I am getting from many in the Armenian circles that this faith in a sense is a product of something within the man. I just don't think so.

Before anyone comes to Christ, they must believe that He is Who He is. However, I have heard testimony of those who have said, "Lord, if you are really real, reveal yourself to me." Then the Lord reveals Himself and they become saved. My understanding of this experience would be that he is in the process of being saved before he ever even comes to that place of saying such a thing. His heart and will is being broken. The Spirit of God is at work in that person's life.

My issue is where does this faith to come to Christ come from? As Nicodemus found out in his encounter with Christ recorded in John 3, you cannot come to Christ until you are born again. However, I do believe that Nicodemus was in the process of salvation that night he came. I believe that God saves those who are His.

However, the real issue is that everyone who believes in Christ will not perish but be saved from damnation. If you believe, you are saved regardless of how you got there. I have never read or heard of one good definition that could explain to me how God chooses or what is the basis of His choice. But, as I have said, the most popular definition of the basis of God's choice is that He ultimately knows those who will in some way shape or form choose Him. These people are my brothers and sisters in the Lord even if I do disagree with them on that issue.

I think my problem in leaving anything up to man, is my knowledge of myself. I have to trust in Him 100% as I have no confidence in my own self. I have come to the conclusion that I can't even leave the issue of faith up to myself. I was born into His Kingdom. I don't know how or why but I know that I belong to Him. The reformed position makes more sense to me but I certainly understand how it can be offensive to others. I do not speak of it often but it is in my heart.

I mentioned to David that a study of this kind could be beneficial to some as there may be someone out there that was as miserable as I thinking I was somewhat responsible for my salvation. This understanding puts all doubt to rest. Who knows, maybe God gives those verses for the benefit of some poor crazy guy like me. I read those verses on predestination and begin to give all glory to God. I praise Him for my salvation. I was a crazy one. I was absolutely miserable before I came to the understanding that salvation was all of Him and none of me. He told me to rest and I have been resting in Him for thirty-six years.

I used to go around telling people how important this doctrine was. I wanted everyone to believe just like I did because I wanted everyone to experience this rest. My soul was so troubled, Jesus finally said to me, "Come here and I will give you rest."

I don't know why He saved me but I know He did and I love Him for it.

Saved and not ashamed,
Roy

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 13, 2010 at 1:58pm

Rod,

You brought up a good point. Reformed/Calvinist preachers preach Salvation almost exactly the same as Armininan preachers. Both camps emphasis the need for repentance and to believe in Jesus as Savior and Lord.

Spurgeon once said:

If I could lift up people's shirts and find painted on their backs an "E" for the elect, then I would know who I should direct my message to, but we do not know who God's elect are, so we go throughout the world preaching the Gospel and those God calls and has predestined from before the foundations of the world to believe, will.

The Gospel is the vehicle by which the elect are brought in to the church.

So we don't ever preach to the lost initially predestination, election. As we disciple the people of God, we then explained the technicalities of our salvation.

Blessings

Permalink Reply by Carla on August 13, 2010 at 6:42pm

This is a very interesting point David.. I have never looked at it that way before.. It makes sense.. Thanks for posting this...this alone clears out some of those cobwebs.. ;-)

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on August 13, 2010 at 8:14pm

Praise God beloved Carla,

One is glad to be of service :)

There are also personal testimonies to attest of God's election and biblical examples to back it up.

I was in a cell; No one had ever preached the gospel to me. I did have this one chick track that I found maybe around 12 years old which would come back to my remembrance from time to time. The track is call "This is your life" Check it out: http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp

But the point I want to make here sis, is that no one preached to me as many others can also attest through their born again experience. God chose to step in to my cell and I received such a conviction, which dropped me to my knees sobbing. I had no choice but to accept Christ. His grace was irresistible not because He forced me to accept Him, but because how could I. Once The Holy Spirit had giving me conviction of my sins, I cried out to God, was then regenerated and given faith to believe, which allow me to freely accept Christ as Lord and Savior. This happens simultaneously.

Can we clearly find election in the bible? Of course all over the place and very obvious in some. Check it out sis:

Luke 1
13 But the angel said to him: "Do not be afraid, Zechariah; your prayer has been heard. Your wife Elizabeth will bear you a son, and you are to give him the name John. 14 He will be a joy and delight to you, and many will rejoice because of his birth, 15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth.

John was chosen by God to be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth. Many prophets wrote similar words.

Now who wants to tell God that is unfair? Did God choose John because God knew he would in the future choose him? Nothing in scripture to back up that belief. Not one verse.

Hope this helps as well.

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