What does sanctification look like?

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Permalink Reply by Seek on April 3, 2014 at 6:30am

Well our drinking water issue was due to the carelessness of big money corporations.  Freedom Inc., a chemical storage facility, who didn't spend the money that was earmarked for tank repairs and allowed the tanks to leak into the river that serviced the water company.  The electricity goes out frequently here because of the mountainous region.  Along my road is all woods.  Power lines are overgrown by trees.  Winter storms and high winds take down a lot of trees and power lines.  We had around 300,000 without power for over a week at one point last summer when we had tornado force winds here.  I use lanterns, a propane heater, bottled water, and keep non-perishable foods on hand. 

Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 5, 2014 at 11:39am

Roy,

It just opens my eyes to how much sin there is in this world. In another discussion I was asking about keeping the great commandment, which is love for God, and to keep it one would need to keep all the law, and I just can't see how that is possible even after being born again and filled with the Spirit, operating out of the power and presence of God, because of fallen flesh and living in a fallen world.

Spurgeon really makes a great point IMO about sin in a sermon of his regarding God's perfect law.

He writes:

"... If the law of the Lord reaches to the inward parts who among us can by nature abide its judgment? Who can understand his errors? Cleanse thou me from secret faults. The ten commands are full of meaning--meaning which many seem to ignore. For instance, many a man will allow in and around his house inattention to the rules of health and sanitary precaution, but it does not occur to him that he is trampling on the command-- “Thou shalt not kill,” yet this rule forbids our doing anything which may cause injury to our neighbor’s health, and so deprive him of life. Many a deadly manufactured article, many an ill-ventilated shop, many a business with hours of excessive length, is a standing breach of this command."
http://www.angelfire.com/va/sovereigngrace/perpetuity.spurgeon.html

Am I causing injury to my neighbor's health in some way? When I don't recycle, when I use electricity, when I use fuels and even things like hair sprays that are known to be destroying the ozone layer, etcetera?

O God deliver me from the body of this death!

I don't even know how much I err against God's law. Does anyone?

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 5, 2014 at 12:30pm

If you are not careful, you will want to return to the oral traditions of the OT Law. I think Jesus was addressing this when He speaks of straining at a gnat but swallowing a camel. 

Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 5, 2014 at 12:40pm

The Pharisees had added their own traditions, which were never part of God's perfect law. However, it was Jesus who pointed out the spirit of the law. As Spurgeon explains it:

"In addition to explaining it the Master went further: he pointed out its spiritual character. This the Jews had not observed. They thought, for instance, that the command “Thou shalt not kill” simply forbade murder and manslaughter: but the Savior showed that anger without cause violates the law, and that hard words and cursing, and all other displays of enmity and malice, are forbidden by the commandment. They knew that they might not commit adultery, but it did not enter into their minds that a lascivious desire would be an offense against the precept till the Savior said, “He that looketh upon a woman to lust after her committeth adultery with her already in his heart.” He showed that the thought of evil is sin, that an unclean imagination pollutes the heart, that a wanton wish is guilt in the eyes of the Most High. Assuredly this was no abrogation of law: it was a wonderful exhibition of its far-reaching sovereignty and of its searching character. The Pharisees fancied that if they kept their hands, and their feet, and their tongues, all was done, but Jesus showed that thought, imagination, desire, memory, everything, must be brought into subjection to the will of God, or else the law was not fulfilled."

Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 2, 2014 at 9:22pm

I think you are probably correct when you say that the mountain here is not literal. However, I must admit that if someone talked beforehand about the Red Sea opening up making a path for the Children of Israel to walk across from Egypt into Arabia, I probably would have thought He was speaking symbolically. Wow! Would I have been wrong. I did mention somewhere in this forum that I did not want to speak presumptuously. God used Moses to speak to that Sea. I believe that Sea literally parted. Yet, we do have to acknowledge the will of God in the parting of the Sea. That was not Moses' idea. This was all God.

Yet, I do believe this Passage in Mark has a symbolical meaning. 

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 3, 2014 at 1:29pm

As Jesus walked westward that spring morning toward the city of Jerusalem from the town of Bethany, being hungry, He noticed a fig tree in the distant. He saw there were leaves on the tree but no figs. Jesus cursed the fig tree and said, “May no one eat fruit from you again.”

 

As I have mentioned I believe Jesus is giving us a symbolic message through this incident. The fig tree withered and died never to produce fruit again. There is really some finality to this message. As we have mentioned the fig tree most probably represents the city of Jerusalem and even more in particular. I believe it represents the system of bringing salvation to the world. Jerusalem could have been the center of Christianity. Instead, Jerusalem scorned its Messiah and the wonderful covenant that God was about to give the world.

As Bruce indicated, a fig tree with leaves but no taqsh  at this time of year was a sign that this tree would not be producing any fruit that season. The signs were also there that Jerusalem would not be accepting to the Gospel of Christ and that it would no longer be the center for the Word of the Lord going forth. How sad this had to be for the Lord. He wept over the city but the city would no longer be the hub for His Word. Soon, that system would be ended and one that I believe would never again be revived even though some will disagree with that last statement. Some believe a new temple with sacrificial type worship will be reinstituted. I do not. It is over. The tree was dead. Something significantly was about to change in God’s system. The old was finished and about to fade away. The new would come out of another location. But where was that new location to be?

Can you imagine how wonderful it would be if Jerusalem were the center of Christianity in our world today? Would there have been a Roman church? How would it have been for a young ministerial student to have traveled to the most prominent seminary in the world - to the city of Jerusalem? Jesus appears to have wanted that. Jesus cried, "How often, how often," but it was not to be. Jerusalem has suffered greatly as a result of her rejection of the Savior. Two thousand years of desolation coming as a result of Jesus' curse. 

This is a beautiful story that I believe Jesus is speaking through this symbolic message. Again, I do not want to be presumptuous. We can feel the sadness of our Savior but yet a joy over His new people. He is rejoicing over us. We received what they rejected. We are warned not to boast in that which was given but for sure encouraged to rejoice. I am sad for Jerusalem but rejoicing that this Gospel was sent to the Gentile nations. You see, I am one of those Gentiles to whom this Gospel has been sent. 

I believe we are seeing here a picture of God getting rid of the "old" and sending the "new" to a different location. 

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on April 6, 2014 at 7:36am

I apologize for the length of this post and for using your forum Seek. I had these thoughts swirling in my mind and I wanted to get them on paper. I am just about done. It took longer than I thought. 

To some, Mark 11:23-24 is a method to have whatever we want. Other Passages do help us to understand why we don’t get everything we pray for. As I have mentioned, sometimes He does tell us, “No.” What if God did allow us to become little gods that could go around calling things into being? How dangerous could that get?

Have you ever considered how God makes all things work for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose? Sometimes you might have two of these little gods praying and believing for something completely opposite. The only way God can make all things work to the good for His children is for Him to be absolutely sovereign. He has to make tough decisions which sometimes could result in us not getting that which we want or are praying for. When Jesus cursed that fig tree, He could see what was coming. He had understanding that we simply do not have. How many would pray asking God not to do what He did to Jerusalem? God is sovereign.

I am so limited in my thinking and cannot even begin to understand the mind of God. Yet, I do think. When I consider God making all things working for the good of all that belong to Him, I cannot wrap my mind around such a thing.

What we now have is a dead fig tree and the disciple’s amazement of the authority and power of Jesus.  Jesus continued, “Have faith in God,” He answered, “If anyone says to this mountain…”

What strikes me in this verse is Jesus referring to a specific mountain. He did not say “a” mountain but “this” mountain. I envision Him pointing to a mountain as He said that. If He were in the plains of Kansas He would have to say “a” mountain as there would be no mountain in sight. However, if He were here in Wyoming, He might very well be pointing to a particular mountain. I think this is the case.

The road from Bethany to Jerusalem most likely crossed over the Mt. of Olives. He certainly went back that way that evening for sure. I’ve never been there but I understand one can get a wonderful view of the city on mountains from the Mount of Olives. Was He referring to a particular mountain or just any mountain? Was He actually pointing to a mountain? I think He was. Nothing else here really makes sense. If so, to which mountain was He pointing?

Jesus was headed west towards Jerusalem. It would have been about a thirty to forty minute journey from Bethany to Jerusalem by foot. The tree would have probably been ahead of Him and He would have undoubtedly been facing this city of hills or mountains as they referred to them just to His west. Which mountain was He seeing? They were headed straight for Mount Moriah or Mount Zion as some refer it to. Jesus was pointing at the Temple mount itself.

As I have mentioned that mountain was the place where the Word of the Lord was to come forth. It was the place of the House of God. God wanted to speak from the holy mountain but the people would not allow it. Jesus told those disciples if they would speak to this mountain and told it to be removed into the sea, it would be done for them. The most prominent important spiritual move in all of history was about to take place and Jesus was there in person as a man speaking to it.

For over three years Jesus had been coming to Jerusalem speaking to them of the great things God was about to do for all mankind. Changes were headed their way and it was about to pass them up. The Jews were resistant to spreading the news that salvation had come and everyone’s sins could all be forgiven. This news would bring fruit to the whole world but it first had to be spread abroad. The system was changing and now all would be included. The Jews said no and Jesus told them that the vineyard would now be leased to others.

That mountain was picked up and thrown but to where was it thrown? Jesus said it would be thrown into the sea. The sea often represents the Gentile nations.

Daniel 7:1-3 The restless sea is a frequent biblical image for the nations of the world (Isa 17:12-13; 57:20; 60:5; Eze 26:3; Rv 13:1; 17:15). (from The Bible Exposition Commentary: Old Testament © 2001-2004 by Warren W. Wiersbe. All rights reserved.)

It is sad but that is exactly what was happening. The Word of the Lord would no longer come out of Jerusalem. Instead the city would become desolate. There would be no more dancing, no more singing, no music from the flutes or the sounds of joy coming from the bride and bridegroom.

Jesus spoke desolation against this city for its refusal to listen first to the prophet John and then the Son Himself. Now the Kingdom would be given to the tax collectors and prostitutes. Even then they would not believe. As spoken by Daniel and confirmed by Jesus, desolation was decreed upon this city and nation. Jesus spoke the sentence:

Lk 19:43-44 3 For the days shall come upon thee, that thine enemies shall cast a trench about thee, and compass thee round, and keep thee in on every side,

44 And shall lay thee even with the ground, and thy children within thee; and they shall not leave in thee one stone upon another; because thou knewest not the time of thy visitation. KJV

And in that very generation, Jerusalem was cast aside as the Kingdom was passed to others. As Jesus said, “Not one stone was left upon another.” The Romans destroyed the city casting every stone down from another in search for gold in the walls.

I am including here a picture of that desolation in AD 70 from the free encyclopedia Wikipedia.

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Ercole_de_Roberti_Destruction_of_...

Jesus’ sadness for this event is obvious but the finality and reality of God’s judgment is made very clear to all generations through this desolation. Also, the authentication of the ministry of Christ is made very clear. Why do they still resist their Messiah? 

Seek, my next post will be the conclusion. Again, I am sorry for using your forum. But, once I started, I felt I had to complete it. I was primarily getting this down on paper for my sons in their church. Thanks.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on April 6, 2014 at 10:32am

Roy,

It's coming together beautifully. I wanted to comment on this part: 

"To some, Mark 11:23-24 is a method to have whatever we want. Other Passages do help us to understand why we don’t get everything we pray for. As I have mentioned, sometimes He does tell us, “No.” What if God did allow us to become little gods that could go around calling things into being? How dangerous could that get?"

Jonah is a good example of God interfering with man's choices. In many cases, we can be glad God does interfere when and where God intereferes. 

However, in the history of mankind, we have seen what happens when mankind rules and dictates over others in places like Zimbabwe, Uganda, North Korea, Germany, North Vietnam, Ethiopia, etcetera.

After being born again, we must still battle temptations from our spiritual enemies, and even when we recognize our authority over Satan and demons, we must still battle the desires of the flesh. James 1:14.

Additionally, we don't have what it takes to make all things work for the good for those that love Him and are called according to His purpose in the way God does. We don't have the attributes of God, such as knowing and seeing everything.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on April 6, 2014 at 7:37pm

Roy I'm not bothered by you posting here. I just haven't commented as it's just over my head a bit.

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