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What does sanctification look like?
So I posted a blog this morning: http://www.allaboutgod.net/profiles/blogs/what-does-sanctification-....
This brings the question we've gone around on many times here. Are we to rebuke satan against everything we endure? Are we to have faith that God does not want us sick or anything else and to stand on that and claim our healing and be healed because of our faith that God heals? Are we to ascribe all sickness and suffering as the work of the devil and that as children of God cannot touch us?
Or are we to allow sanctification to have it's perfect work in us? Sanctification which may come through trials and suffering and sickness that God allows to happen. Satan is the author of it, yet God is in control of everything and not man. For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor? Romans 11:34. I would rather stand on the belief that God wants me healed but that He wants me to shine, to be more like Christ, that He wants my INNER me healed above the outer physical me first than to stand cursing the devil and proclaiming that I'm already healed. I believe in Mark 11:24 wholeheartedly: Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them.
And I shall. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow. Am I healed? In God's timing, yes I am. And I'm not meaning to start a war on what we believe in, but my point is that God meets each of us where we are. What one may have faith in, they did not acquire overnight. Perhaps they already passed their sanctification point. Perhaps they believe wrongly. Only God knows these things, not I nor anyone else. But I say my faith is strong. I have not quit in spite of it all. But I HAVE BEEN changed....and that concerns God way more than whether my body is healed.
So perhaps we shouldn't be so quick to call down fire from heaven unless and until we know what God is up to?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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I only have a short time this day but wanted to post something for some feedback. We have been speaking of the prophetic lesson given to us by the way of the disciples on His way to Jerusalem that Passion Week. What is Jesus speaking to us through this and the other many parables He spoke this week. Jesus spoke in parables that some would not understand but He does want us to understand these things. What does the cursing of the fig tree and the words about the removal of the mountain say to us? I can't say that I know but I am seeking to understand His words and actions. He is God and He does want His children to understand. The following may help or it may not help.
When Jesus cursed the fig tree, we do see this was a lesson but we have to read the lesson in complete context to understand the meaning. Mark points out to us that it was not the time of the season for the tree to have fruit. The fruit, therefore, is the center of the meaning. This tree was never to bear fruit again.
Later that day Jesus spoke a parable to the people of Judah about the vineyard. He had rented the vineyard to some farmers that abused those that came to collect for the owner the fruit of the vineyard. Eventually, the owner sent his son thinking that surely they would respect him but they killed him thinking they could now inherit this vineyard to themselves.
Do you tremble at the Word of the Lord? Some of you will say, “Let us go up to the mountain of the Lord, to the house of the God of Jacob and hear the Word of the Lord.” But, if you go up to Jerusalem this day, to the Mt. Zion spoken of by some scholars as being the location of the Temple you will not hear His Word. You would hear a bunch of gibberish straight out of hell. You see, the mountain has been removed and been cast into the sea. Today, on the old mountain is a Mosque dedicated to Allah who we understand as being Satan. The only prayers you would hear out of there today would not be to the Lord God, the God of Jacob. Perhaps we will see the reconquering of this mountain in the next few years. Perhaps not.
Where was Jesus when He was speaking these words to His disciples? He was headed straight for Jerusalem, the House of the God of Jacob. This is where the Word of God was to come up out of.
Isa 2:3 Many peoples will come and say,
"Come, let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
to the house of the God of Jacob.
He will teach us his ways,
so that we may walk in his paths."
The law will go out from Zion,
the word of the Lord from Jerusalem. NIV
Jesus is speaking to His disciples but has His eyes fixed upon Jerusalem and in particular the Mountain of the Lord. Jesus was particularly speaking to the Mountain and saying it would be removed from this place and be cast into the sea. The Mountain of the Lord was being removed and being thrown into the sea. What does the sea mean? I believe the sea here is speaking of those Gentile nations to whom the mountain of the Lord would be coming. The mountain of the Lord is the place where the Word was to go forth from. Jesus was viewing this very mountain at the time of this illustrated parable. The Word is not going forth out of Jerusalem. Jesus spoke to those of this city that the vineyard would be torn from their hands and given to others.
The focus goes from the fig tree to the mountain. May we attempt to see this through the eyes of our blessed Savior? What was He seeing as He spoke these words. Could He actually see Mt. Zion and the beautiful Temple as His eyes gazed past the tree? This is where the Word of God should be generated from to the whole world. Yet, for the next two thousand years, the Word would go forth not from that mountain or at least from the mountain in that place. That mountain would be removed.
Well, I have to go but I wanted to share this with you this morning. I do believe Jesus has given us a parable and we must seek to understand.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Most preach the mountain moving verses as though they represent mountains figuratively speaking --a financial debt mountain, an illness mountain, etcetera -- any barrier that stands in the way of happiness, health, and wealth. That Jesus might actually have been talking about a literal mountain, and "this mountain" meaning a particular mountain and not just "a mountain" does make a difference in the interpretation of the passage IMO since we are to look at words, but I've also read that in Scriptures, mountains mean nations and peoples, and the disciples definitely were among the first in the Christian faith to begin literally moving "peoples" as far as the gospel goes.
Thanks, Roy. It is much food for thought.
Hebrews 12:18-24
English Standard Version (ESV)
A Kingdom That Cannot Be Shaken
18 For you have not come to (A)what may be touched, a blazing fire and darkness and gloom and a tempest 19 and (B)the sound of a trumpet and a voice whose words (C)made the hearers beg that no further messages be spoken to them.
20 For they could not endure the order that was given, (D)“If even a beast touches the mountain, it shall be stoned.” 21 Indeed, (E)so terrifying was the sight that Moses said, “I tremble with fear.”
22 But you have come to (F)Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, (G)the heavenly Jerusalem, and to (H)innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to (I)the assembly[a] of the firstborn who are (J)enrolled in heaven, and to (K)God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, (L)the mediator of a new covenant, and to (M)the sprinkled blood (N)that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
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Permalink Reply by JB on
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I noticed in the KJV Mk 11:13, when it says “for the time of figs was not YET” When a word is Italicized, I understand that it means it wasn’t in the original Gr. And man inserted it. So with that in mind, isn’t it possible that the time of figs had already past leaving the tree barren? Because it could have just as easily read “the time of figs was past, or over, etc.”
So I can’t see reading a lot into these passages that isn’t actually there, does He have to have an ulterior motive for cursing the tree? I believe it could just be showing a principle of the authority of the kingdom of God within man. I also believe it could be a literal mountain, But who on this earth would have that kind of faith, to move something that they have no reason for doing so? Seems most of us don’t have enough faith to walk by it, let alone moving mountains with it. Yet we want to stress the Grace of God “freely” but the bible says we even have to have faith to enter into this grace. Ro.5:2.
If we all have to have the intelligence to figure out just what God might be saying in passages such as this, then we all may be in a heap of trouble.
Where is the simplicity of the gospel?
As in
2 Cor. 1:12 for our rejoicing is this, the testimony of our conscience, that in simplicity and godly sincerity, not with fleshly wisdom, but by the grace of God, we have had our conversation in the world, and more abundantly to you-ward.
Or this,
2 Cor. 11:3 But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ.
But in the mind of some, I am probably taking this out of context as well.
JB
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JB,
You wrote, " I also believe it could be a literal mountain, But who on this earth would have that kind of faith, to move something that they have no reason for doing so? Seems most of us don’t have enough faith to walk by it, let alone moving mountains with it."
If Jesus was referring to the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 A.D. and the Temple Mount being demolished to the ground, then "this mountain" may have been a literal mountain, and if mountains in scripture mean nations and peoples, then many mountains are moved, as we have seen throughout history, and of course God's will is the reason. Just food for thought.
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Hi JB,
Good point. It is true that the word "yet" has been inserted by the translators for better readability. If you use the KJV and left the word out, it would read:
Mk 11:13 ...and when he came to it, he found nothing but leaves; for the time of figs was not. KJV
All the translations indicate that it was not the season for figs including the King James Version as well as the Greek text. As you know, we do not have the original. I feel the explanation from Bruce is a good one.
We are trying to understand this Passage from Mark. There are other Passages that man has not understood until the prophecy given was fulfilled. I personally believe Jesus is acting and speaking prophetically. This certainly would not be the first time a prophet did something of this nature.
Heb 1:1-2
In the past God spoke to our forefathers through the prophets at many times and in various ways, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed heir of all things, and through whom he made the universe. NIVGod does speak to us in various ways. Jesus came speaking in parables. He also spoke to us with symbolic actions. Why was it necessary for Him to be baptized? He also instructs us to baptize our converts. Obviously, baptism is a symbolic action that testifies to a spiritual experience. The Lord's supper is full of symbolism. Of course Revelation is a Book full of symbolism much of it given to us by Jesus Himself.
I think it necessary to consider the possibility that there is some symbolism in this particular Passage. I really don't think we are being beguiled by the serpent.
So much of the symbolism used by Christ has been explained to us so well, we no longer consider it symbolic. The disciples may have questioned what Jesus might have been talking about when He told them the bread was His body and the wine was His blood. Today we have understanding of His words.
This particular action in Mark 11 may have taken nearly 2,000 years for us to understand. Yet, today we are gaining that understanding. As I have mentioned, I think the Passage has been misused. It seems improbable to me that the mountain here is literal however not impossible. He Who parted the Red Sea could certainly move a mountain.
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Roy,
You mentioned prophets.
In Jeremiah 51, Babylon is referred to as a mountain.
25 “Behold, I am against you, O destroying mountain,
declares the Lord,
which destroys the whole earth; (ESV)
Then in verse 42 it says:
42 (CJ)The sea has come up on Babylon;
she is covered with its tumultuous waves. (ESV)
Today, men build highways and mine coal, moving mountains and leveling them, or at least parts of them. Literal mountains. They may not be huge mountains.
If mountains in scripture mean nations and peoples, then it isn't literal. But maybe it's both. I don't know. I was just adding food for thought.
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http://www.orionmagazine.org/index.php/articles/article/166/
I suppose when men move mountains, using machinery and explosives, we could debate if it's by faith, or not, but ...
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Amanda,
I read that entire story. It was very fascinating as I live in the middle of one of the areas spoken of in the article. We Americans have become very energy dependent much unlike our ancestors. As I read the article I found myself wishing there were another way. I don't think this is what Jesus was referring to. I wonder if the man writing the article has room to fuss. I don't think I do. I have central heating and central air in my home. I have several electrical appliances in my home. This may be our greatest sins. Some are predicting that this will be America's downfall. Could we learn again how to live without electricity? It does appear we have become very sinful with our consuming ways.
There is a mountain to move. I don't know how it could be done. I do know that Jesus is coming to straighten everything out. Will we still have the poor when He reigns over the earth? I don't think we will. At the moment, we are a very sinful nation. I am so grateful that Jesus died for my sins. I am going to turn my thermostat down in the winter and up in the summer.
God bless these West Virginians, the people from Kentucky and the Wyomingites that work to satisfy America's passion for energy. I serve many coal miner's children at the school. They are wonderful people.
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Permalink Reply by Seek on
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Well we West Virginians might help to supply the energy but where I live, I've been without it quite a few times. Believe me, you learn to adjust. We've been unable to drink the water for weeks on end, and without power sometimes for a week or more in some locations. You adapt. Those who cannot adapt will have a problem. But for the most part, yes, we can learn how to live without it. Though I'd always be having a bad hair day.
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Seek,
The rest of our country doesn't care a whole lot about you. They just want your coal. They don't care about your mountains or your drinking water. I say raise the price of your coal. We will all have to pay a little more for our electricity. We may have to get rid of one of our gas guzzling four-wheel drive pickups or suv's. We may even have to cut back on one of our big screen TV's. I'm not sure if we could survive or not.
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