What does sanctification look like?

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 26, 2014 at 11:06am

I only know we have to take all of scripture. God is sovereign but what does that really mean? I think that's the real question, as well as what is one's authority as a believer? 

Right now, what I discern is that when prayer requests for healing aren't answered affirmatively, it doesn't always mean the person's faith is to blame. They may be asking amiss or perhaps they have not because they ask not -- that would be ironic, huh? Or it could be discipline upon them, or maybe a way of purifying them through trials or even a case like Job's where satan accused and God permitted.  

I know I don't want to create an idol in my head of what God is like, and, if getting the trinity wrong and the divinity of Christ wrong are fellowship breakers, then what about God's other attributes? Are they just as important?

I also know I don't understand the authority I have as a believer but at the same time I know I'm totally dependent upon God. 2 Cor 1:9. 

We most definitely mustn't discount miracles. As Paul said, he was taught to rely on God "who raises the dead." That's a big, big miracle -- raising the dead. I think Paul may have been raised in Lystra after being stoned, or at least was miraculously healed on the spot.

Luke 13:24
King James Version (KJV)
24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.

Matthew 7:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

At this point, I'm seeking and making every effort to get to know God. Unlike you, I can't say my faith is strong. It's more like a smoldering wick needing to be re-lit. God has been leading me out of a legalistic belief system and I want to stay on the narrow way from now on.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 26, 2014 at 12:10pm

We most definitely mustn't discount miracles.

And that's another issue.  I was told many times that God can't or won't help me if I speak negative.  And then I end up getting two $1,000 bonuses in a six month period in a company that had never given one dime in bonuses previously.  They picked up my insurance where they had never paid insurance before.  When everyone said I couldn't get more than $4,000 out of the car I owed $5,300 on, one lot did it and got me into a brand new and better car at the same monthly rate and they paid my old car (needing $1400 in repairs) off.  I've seen quite a few miracles all along even while I had many saying I wouldn't.  And they would invariably point out "let not the double-minded man think he should receive anything from the Lord".  That led me to discover the meaning behind double-minded (fickle), one who believes in God one day and wonders if He is real the next.  Well I'd seen enough to know of God's realness.  It was just in what He had planned for me I had trouble with, or whether something specific would happen in my life.  I wasn't serving God one day and then not the next.  I wasn't being double-minded but having the unbelief that the boy's father asked Jesus to help and Jesus did.  So if he did receive, then he wasn't double-minded.  So having doubts/unbelief in a thing to happen is not being double-minded towards God and His ability to perform it. 

I don't know if those who believe you can just stand on your healing and have it are wrong or if for THEM it is right in the moment they're in.  But the Spirit keeps telling me I'm being healed...from the inside out as one evangelist prophesied over me.  He keeps telling me that I'm growing.  I have no doubt God wants to heal me, but He's working on the inside and perhaps using the external issues to get me there.

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 26, 2014 at 2:48pm

I've been out enjoying the sunny day, but it's still so chilly -- feels like January.

I always think of the verse in Luke 5:12, when I'm reminded of the one who said he believes and exclaims help my unbelief.

While he was in one of the cities, there came a man full of leprosy. And when he saw Jesus, he fell on his face and begged him, “Lord, if you will, you can make me clean.” ESV

If you notice, the one with unbelief had asked Jesus if He "could" and not if He "would" and in Luke 5:12, Jesus says He will. I know Jesus can, but always pray and ask if He will, if it's His will. In Luke 5:12 it was, but the question is, does that always apply across the board, to everyone? I think it is always right to say, Thy will be done, not mine.

Do you really identify with the one who said help my unbelief? Think it through. Do you doubt His power, that He can?

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 27, 2014 at 6:09am

I have not doubted that He "can", but that He "will", or at least will for "me".  And that's been part of being insecure and unable to trust, which He's been healing.  Which all these trials have been a part of.  All the sickness that I'm supposed to rebuke the devil and get rid of, despite what God may be teaching me through them.  ;-)

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Permalink Reply by Amanda on March 27, 2014 at 6:24am

I know. I was trying to get you to see that the kind of unbelief the man had is not what you have. You are a believer.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on March 26, 2014 at 8:48pm

In my opinion, the Word of Faith movement was as distant from the early church as the east is from the west. The recent WOF movement made popular in the 20th century is founded upon a verse in Mark where it says:

Mk 11:22-24  And Jesus answering saith unto them, Have faith in God.

23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.

24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye shall have them. KJV

The key to this movement is found in verse 23 - he shall have whatsoever he saith.  From these words is developed a very extensive movement in which person after person is brought into a virtually complete deception of the meaning and purpose of the Gospel of Jesus Christ. When one takes this verse out of context, it does appear that Jesus is perpetrating a movement of speaking all our wants and desires into existence. We are led to believe that a life of health and wealth awaits all those that learn the secret of making the right confessions. We can become little gods and speak all our dreams into reality - whatever one desires.

It doesn't work. How is it possible to deceive so many into believing that riches is part of the Gospel? Yet so-called prophet after prophet convinces the innocent that God wants them to sew seed(money) into their ministry that will result in a return of thousands for mere dollars. The better of these prophets gather millions and millions of dollars. It is a system that could be compared to the lottery but at least with the lottery people know there is a chance they might not win the big dollars. In this system all are promised to win but all we hear of is the very few that do hit the lottery. The masses lose their hard earned money and wonder why it didn't work for them. They become disillusioned and confused. 

How is it possible that we people actually believe that this is the kind of system that Jesus is promoting? Jesus warns us about the love of money. To desire money to the point to giving to get is far from the pure in heart. What are people willing to give for their healing? What would a mother do the gain healing for their diabetic son? What would a person  give for the healing of their loved one dying of cancer? What would a person be willing to do to find relief from that which is a thorn in their flesh? Many leave all they know - their church, their common sense, even their families to search for this pot of gold at the end of some imagined rainbow. They come to believe that from some purported formula, one they believe that Jesus Himself created, they can have all these desires in this life. 

I personally believe there are many innocent ones in this movement. I was in this movement myself. I have had word of faith preachers in my home and in my church. I have attended meeting after meeting. I have seen crowds worked into frenzy with the music, preaching and stories of all those who have received their healing and riches. At the height of the frenzy, it is time to receive the offering. Some give all they have to get what is being promised them. Book sales are promoted and CD's with secrets included to all the riches of God. Then the show really gets underway. The prophet or preacher seems to possess some great power - enough to cause people to fall out under the power of the Spirit and grant the healing or solution to whatever the need. Hands are laid upon the people and down they go. Some are shaking; some are screaming; some are weeping; they all go down.  Supposedly during this time of fainting or weakness, the needs are being met. Finances are being restored, legs are being lengthened, ears are being opened, etc., etc. Of course, the vast, vast majority of them get up to the same conditions they went down with. The explanations given by the prophet are that they don't have faith; they have unforgiveness or sin in their lives. It is never a lack of power in the prophet or evangelist. 

The prophet or evangelist packs up and leaves with a whole lot of money while the pastor is left to try to pick up the pieces. What do you do with all those that do not receive what they thought was promised? You have no choice. You encourage them to keep on, keep believing, keep confessing and keep giving. I personally think that most of the pastors are innocent. They still believe it will happen. They buy more books and listen to more CD's. When will they look deeper for answers?

Is this what the Gospel is all about? Is this what Jesus suffered the stripes on his back and legs, the thorns on His precious head, the brutal beatings on His body, the nails in His hands and feet; the spear in His side for? Is this the Gospel He has instructed us to carry to the world? 

I do not believe so. What, then, is He saying in these verses? Is there a deeper meaning that we cannot see at first glance? I remember the exact spot I told the Lord I was walking away from all of this. I knew in my heart it wasn't real. I came to this conclusion at a young age but I did have three young children. I was determined to not allow them to be raised in this teaching. I paid a pretty heavy price for walking away. I lost my church, my home, my friends, and more. But, I kept my family. The results are worth every bit of our suffering. All my children are faithfully serving God and four of the five are in full-time ministry. 

If Jesus is not promising wealth and health, what is He promising and can we really know? I believe we can. For me it came with an understanding of learning about God's love for me. I learned how much He loved me. I learned He loved me enough to give all He had to get me. I learned to believe in Him. I learned I could move mountains. It is very, very simple. There is really nothing complicated to it. But, it is a glorious understanding. We can do all things through Christ.

I hope more get interested in this discussion. There is so much we all have to learn. I really do not want to offend any. I am willing to share my perspective. You do have to realize that I have seen many go away from these services empty handed. I think we as a church have so much more to offer. 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 26, 2014 at 9:03pm

Something that always comes back up inside me whenever that passage in Mark is quoted....

whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith ****shall**** (not "have") come to pass; he ****shall**** have whatsoever he saith.
24 Therefore I say unto you, What things soever ye desire, when ye pray, believe that ye receive them, and ye ****shall have**** them. KJV

There's no qualifying time on this. We may not have them til we see Jesus...everything in His timing.

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on March 27, 2014 at 3:21am

Wow, Char, you are coming to the meaning of this verse. I really am praying that others will join us in our conversation and see the glory of our Lord. It is a beautiful story that so many fail to see. This was not just a frivolous moment in the life of our Lord. What He did has a very deep meaning. Let me share a Passage:

Ps 118:20-26
20 This is the gate of the Lord
through which the righteous may enter.
21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.

22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;
23 the Lord has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.
24 This is the day the Lord has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.

25 O Lord, save us;
O Lord, grant us success.
26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
From the house of the Lord we bless you. NIV

O Lord, save us; O Lord, grant us success. O Lord, prosper us and make us well. 

Seek, you may be imperfect but you are growing in the stature of our Lord. What is that symbol beside your name? 

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 27, 2014 at 4:16am

I've been studying this morning from my small phone but a lot of copy/paste produced this:

Revelation 21:4
King James Version (KJV)
4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

How can there be no more pain unless there was pain?

2 Corinthians 4:16-17
King James Version (KJV)
16 For which cause we faint not; but though our outward man perish, yet the inward man is renewed day by day.

17 For our light affliction, which is but for a moment, worketh for us a far more exceeding and eternal weight of glory;

Our fleshly body perishes. Perish is an intransitive verb meaning to pass away; to come to naught; ***to waste away; to decay*** and disappear.

Affliction is a noun meaning a state of pain, suffering, distress or agony.

1 Timothy 5:23 (KJV)
23 Drink no longer water , but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities.

1 Peter 1:6-7 (KJV)
6 Wherein ye greatly rejoice , though now for a season, if need be , ye are in heaviness through manifold temptations: 7 That the trial of your faith, being much more precious than of gold that perisheth , though it be tried with fire, might be found unto praise and honour and glory at the appearing of Jesus Christ:

Praise and honor and glory just as in John 9:3 where Jesus answers His disciples "Neither hath this man sinned , nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him." And again how He displayed the works of God through Lazarus' death and resurrection in John 11.

2 Corinthians 12:7-9. 7 And lest I should be exalted above measure through the abundance of the revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I should be exalted above measure. 8 For this thing I besought the Lord thrice, that it might depart from me. 9 And he said unto me, My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

Paul said his infirmities (sickness)/thorn was given lest he be exalted. Satan gave it but God allowed it to keep him humble. God's strength is made perfect in our weakness just as in 1 Corinthians 1:27 where God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

Weak is an adjective meaning, among other things, lacking in bodily strength or healthy vigor, as from age or sickness; feeble; infirm.

Both James 4:10 and 1 Peter 5:6 speak of God's "due time". He heals in His time not ours and nowhere in scripture are we told to rebuke our sicknesses to be well but are often told infirmities and suffering bring perseverance and strength of character: 1 Peter 5-10, James 1:2-12, Romans 5:3-4, 1 Peter 4:12.

God disciplines those He loves: Revelation 3:9, Hebrews 12:6, Proverbs 3:12. Discipline is from Latin disciplina teaching, learning, from discipulus pupil
Date: 13th century and means 1 : punishment 2 obsolete : instruction 3 : a field of study 4 : training that , molds, or perfects the mental or moral character!

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on March 27, 2014 at 5:39am

Why do the prosperity teachers ignore the comfort being offered in the New Testament to those who are suffering from these temporary afflictions? The prosperity teaching is no where to be found in the early church. The early church was in so much suffering. These momentary afflictions were part of God's plan to spread the church around the globe. We, of the latter part of the 20th century and early 21st century are so blessed. This prosperity may not last forever but we are certainly for now enjoying heated and cooled homes, our automobiles, our electronic toys, our fancy restaurants, our cinema entertainment, etc., etc. It hasn't always been like this. Paul told the Philippians:

Php 1:29  For it has been granted to you on behalf of Christ not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for him, 30 since you are going through the same struggle you saw I had, and now hear that I still have. NIV

Paul was in prison, in chains, when he wrote these words. The early church seemed to have learned or was at least being instructed to rejoice during the times of these sorrows. O, we are so far from this in our thinking. 

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Permalink Reply by RoyW on March 27, 2014 at 5:54am

We also enjoy our wonderful hospitals and advanced physical treatments by a medical group that are more knowledgeable today than ever. Still, some are not healed. Yet, you and I are very prosperous. Listen to Job at the time of his suffering:

Job 9:28-35
28 I still dread all my sufferings,
for I know you will not hold me innocent.
29 Since I am already found guilty,
why should I struggle in vain?
30 Even if I washed myself with soap
and my hands with washing soda,
31 you would plunge me into a slime pit
so that even my clothes would detest me.

32 "He is not a man like me that I might answer him,
that we might confront each other in court.
33 If only there were someone to arbitrate between us,
to lay his hand upon us both,
34 someone to remove God's rod from me,
so that his terror would frighten me no more.
35 Then I would speak up without fear of him,
but as it now stands with me, I cannot. NIV

Not so with us - we are prospered beyond our wildest imaginations. This is why we are told so many times to rejoice in our sufferings. We are healed.

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Permalink Reply by Seek on March 27, 2014 at 7:06am

Problem is that every time someone brings up Job as a reference, they will invariably claim that we have a new covenant so that isn't how God operates now.  The last I checked, the new covenant was on being righteous through Christ.  It did not do away with God's disciplining us through afflictions. 

Another verse this morning from 2 Samuel 12:15: And Nathan departed unto his house. And the LORD struck the child that Uriah's wife bare unto David, and it was very sick.

God??? struck the child?  And the child didn't need discipline.  And people will say that God doesn't do those things, that stuff like that is always from satan.  But scripture says that God works all things to our good.  So this child may be in the arms of Jesus and David was changed...for the good of them both.  His thoughts are not ours.  So we cannot truly understand.  Some may be interpretation over the years from the original Greek and Hebrew meanings....which I'm now looking up such words in a translation Bible.  But one verse says God allowed satan to afflict Job and another said God afflicted the child. 

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