What Does "Free" Salvation Really Mean To You? Did You Give Anything In Return?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 22, 2011 at 3:48pm

Hi Michelle,

That is a bit of a loaded question. Lol
If I answer one way then a Pentecostal may be offended, and if I answer the other way a Lutheran might be offended.

If you define over-spiritualize is to wrap ourselves within a false reality that denies the fact we are also human beings as well as spirit beings than no, I would say that this would not be good. However if by over spiritualizing you mean that we should seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit then I would say yes, that is a good thing.

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Permalink Reply by Pastor Bob B on July 25, 2011 at 8:48am

God's kindness to us leads us to a life of repentance, his love becomes the motivating factor in our lives. How can we with hold ourselves from Him?

http://youtu.be/4p4Je4BxxcU

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 28, 2011 at 10:27pm

Hi Mischelle,

 

I used to struggle with my thoughts as well. Some things about the word of God did not make sense to me. The key to overcoming this is actually given to us but few listen because it does not make sense to our own human understanding.

All the answers you are looking for can be found in the statement below.

------ "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."------

It took me years to understand the simplicity contained in the words above since logically they make no sense. What happens is this. When you just keep reading and reading the word of God, all of the sudden a door is opened within your mind and things are then revealed to you. ----- I do not rely upon my own understanding anymore since my own understanding can't explain why reading the bible opens my mind to the answers to questions I was asking, and even to those questions I wasn't asking for. It just somehow happens. So now I just take God at his word and don't question what the bible tells me since it can't be explained by human understanding anyhow. I hope that made sense to you and was helpful in some way. ---- Just keep reading and reading and a door will be opened. It works. Don't ask me how, but it does.

 

Many Blessings.

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 29, 2011 at 2:03pm

What an interesting question, John.

 

It's interesting, Paul said he was a "Slave (Duolos) of Christ". This term Duolos means "one who was a freed servant, that has voluntarily placed himself into lifetime service of that master". The idea being that the master is so kind and generous, that it's better to voluntarily serve him than to be free. Paul also said that we are slaves of whomever we submit ourselves as servants to obey.

 

Side note: A modern philosopher (Bob Dylan) who had struggled with this issue concluded in the early 80s, "you're gonna have to serve somebody" in his album "Slow Train Coming".

 

So, many of us have at times taken on the idea that we ought to see ourselves as servants or slaves. But, Jesus said something different: "¹⁵ I no longer call you servants, because a servant does not know his master’s business. Instead, I have called you friends, for everything that I learned from my Father I have made known to you." 

 

Jesus said he came to set the captives free; and that whom the son sets free is free indeed. And actually, Paul gives us another picture in Galatians - which is that we are sons and heirs. In Romans, Galatians and Ephesians he calls us "Adopted to Sonship", recognized as being "in the beloved son", adopted but sons none the less. This Adoption of Sonship is a profound statement for how God sees us as worthy of His personal commitment to us, in spite of ourselves.

 

These concepts are each different, but I think each of them is giving us a picture of being voluntarily devoted to the Kingdom and more importantly to the King himself. I know for myself, seeing it this way has been helpful. I do not see myself as "compelled" as in being a serf that is forced by a tyrannical lord and master, but rather "driven by devotion"; which means that I am inwardly compelled by love of the Father and the fact that He has been so gracious to me. I have a deep desire to be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit and led by my shepherd because I care about what He cares about.

 

Is it total devotion? No. I wish that it was, but I'm a selfish and foolish man and I have to honestly admit that. I suppose some would say of themselves that they have total devotion. But, i'm skeptical of that being truly possible for anyone. Simply: all of my holy heroes are flawed. Every mortal person I have ever really considered a leader worth following has had some weakness. Many of them have actually disappointed me greatly. But, I see God at work in their lives, using them in powerful ways and this gives me great hope that God will use me. Which is the whole point, right? Can I personally be an instrument of God to accomplish his Kingdom work and glorify him?

 

To me, the way to look at this issue is this: Jesus is the Author of Life, the Author and Finisher of my faith. He is everything. Without him I can do nothing. I keep seeking and keep disciplining myself to seek Him, in spite of my natural inclinations to the contrary because his love and his mercy is so compelling and He is so magnificent. It's not my devotion to Him that really matters, but rather it's His devotion to the Father and the Father's love for us that captures my imagination.

 

~Scribe

 

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 29, 2011 at 3:01pm

Hi Scribe,

 

Thank you for responding. I very much enjoy, and indeed look forward to reading your insights on all topics because I know that you especially love figuring out thought provoking questions.

 

Here is one I have designed especially for you......Let me ask you the following.

If called upon to deny Christ or submit to a beheading. Which would you chose? If you chose yes, than wouldn't you already be in total devotion to Christ since what more devotion can one have than to give his own life for another? If you chose no then how could you call yourself a friend or even a son as you made reference to earlier, since what friend would not give up his own life for a friend that has given up his life for you?....How is that for a brain teaser?

I am curious about what your response would be to the above conundrum. Lol

Many Blessings my brother and friend in Christ.

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Permalink Reply by ScribeD on July 29, 2011 at 3:53pm

Wow. You just like to go for the jugular (so to speak) don't you?

 

When I first became a Christian, I wrestled with this question. Before praying to receive Christ, I became convicted that I would have to be ready to accept martyrdom (long story behind that) in order to be an actual Christian.

 

However, about 4 or 5 years ago, I watched the beheading of Nick Berg by Al Qaeda on You tube. Twice. I cried and threw up after seeing it. I get shivers thinking of it today.

 

About the same time, I also read a report on Voice of the Martyrs about a Chinese man who went to prison for his faith. He was tortured and they demanded that he renounce Christ or be tortured until death. After weeks of torture and deprivation of food and water, he relented and signed a renouncement of Christ. That man went home and could not sleep for days because he believed he had been as evil as Judas. He got up and went out in the streets crying out "I have renounced my savior and lord, I am worthy of hell". He continued walking and crying out for many days until someone took him in and "took his confession" and then pronounced forgiveness on him in the name of Jesus. He wept and went to sleep. Not long afterward he went back out and began preaching boldly. He was re-arrested. This time, they tortured him again and said "we will torture you to death unless you go out publicly renouncing Christ". He refused. So, they tortured him for weeks. Only when they got tired of it, did they quit and they threw him out like trash, thinking he was dead. He recovered and arose to go home. On his way, he preached publicly that he had renounced Christ and been forgiven - counted worthy of suffering for Christ a second time. As a result, he led many people to Christ. He became a pastor and evangelist who lives under the constant threat of being jailed again.

 

That is a man who has "total devotion". I am a man who shudders after watching an American Jewish electrician get beheaded; not for his faith, but just for being an American and a Jew.

 

I think of the Priest of Baghdad who, after being threatened and beaten many times by the Muslim Brotherhood many times just for holding church in Baghdad, refused to leave - even when his own church demanded it. He said "Christ did not run. I will not run. My life is in God's hands" His Parish had existed in Baghdad for centuries, and he was a Chaldean, yet he was treated like a foreigner. Eventually, after several years, he was also taken, beaten and beheaded by the Muslim Brotherhood. That is a man who had total devotion.

 

None of us knows if we are totally devoted, until we face the head-cutters. And by the way, they don't use guillotines - they use knives. Sorry to be graphic, but I take this seriously.

 

Blessings!

 

~Scribe

 

 

 

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 29, 2011 at 4:09pm

Hi Scribe,

Yes, it was a tough riddle. It was designed to be, since you are a man who would not have appreciated its significance otherwise. You have indeed come to a correct and wise conclusion.

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"None of us knows if we are totally devoted, until we face the head-cutters."

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Your answer above, is also the question that lies at the very heart of our faith. What would we do?

 

Good Response!

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 29, 2011 at 5:05pm

Like the other question, this one is impossible to know the answer until the event unfolds. We also will find that we may respond one way in a situation and then faced with a similar sitaution we may respond differently.

 

The key in all of this is two fold. 1) Heart: Has the person come to know Christ as Savior, meaning is Jesus their Savior? 2) Jesus: Is our salvation dependant upon us or Jesus?

 

My thoughts on this, anyway.

 

LT

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 29, 2011 at 6:17pm

Hi LT,

 

You are 100% correct. Since these are tests of faith that have yet to take place. Human understanding, logic, and reasoning can't help us here. The answer is, that the question can not be answered.

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 29, 2011 at 6:12pm

Hi Raul,

The answer Scribe gave is correct for your answer as well. An answer can't be given to something that has not yet happened. What we are talking about are tests of faith that have yet to take place. ....Since It is impossible to know the answer to a test which has yet to take place, the question can't be answered with human logic or reasoning.

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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on July 29, 2011 at 9:06pm

Raul,

 

I understand what you are saying and the point is well taken, but I must still say that I do not know how I would respond. That is a simple and honest answer. We don't know, because we have not faced this, how much grace and strength God may give to us and our child during that situation. There are too many undetermined factors in this hypothetical illustration. We have an account int he Bible where the child was not spared until the very last moment as seen in Abraham and Isaac. In that account it is even more difficult as he was commanded to be the one sacrificing his child.

 

LT

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Permalink Reply by John Rogers on July 29, 2011 at 9:11pm

Hi Raul,

 

If we are to take God at his word then we know that the Holy Spirit will give us the words to say when the time comes. If the Holy Spirit is giving us the words to say, then we know that the Holy Spirit will be with us. So I believe we will have peace in our decision since the words we speak will not be our own. This is an area that surpasses human understanding. You can be sure that if the situation you describe (involving your children) happens, then the Holy Spirit is going to be involved front and center and calling the shots. So no, I don't think the question can be answered since the Holy Spirit has not yet told us what to say since the event has not yet happened.

 

Many Blessings.

 

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