What Are the Marks of a True Disciple?

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on March 14, 2011 at 5:36pm

Scribe,

Thank you for your post. I`m sorry for not making my points understandable. Sometimes in my haste, I don`t make things clear.

In combining "repentance" and "unconditional surrender" to our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, I did not mean to imply any form of Islamic submission, which I agree is a perversion of God`s truth.

I`m saying, in true repentance, which is activated by the Holy Spirit`s conviction of a sinner, this person must turn away from their former sinful life, and turn to God as they`re born again. Like Jesus says in Acts 26:18 ("To turn their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light..............").

Scribe, would you agree that a person comes to Christ "just as they are" at that point in time? I think so.

Now, that`s fine then. But they "should turn to God, performing deeds appropiate to repentance." (Taken from last part of Acts 26:20). So the person must "shed" the "old man" like a snake sheds its skin. This would include all old habits desires, and anything contrary to God`s will.

What if the person wants to hold on to some of his favorite past-times, and still call himself a good Christian? Jesus wouldn`t like that, right? So, that`s where "unconditional surrender" comes in. It means turning over our whole OLD LIFE. Does this happen immediately? Maybe with some converts. It didn`t happen with me. Took a while to finally shed the last parts of my snake skin. 

 

I think that`s where Luke 9:23 comes in - denying self ( all aspects of the old desires), taking up one`s cross DAILY (crucifying the old man every day). Also, first part of Galatians 2:20," I am crucified with Christ, yet I live...........".

Remember, crucifixion is a SLOW DEATH, and sometimes it takes a while for us to shed our skins (sanctification).

That`s why I associate true repentance with unconditional surrender. Psalm 51:17 says our hearts must be "broken and contrite" in God`s eyes (like David) if we`re serious.

 

Annanias and Sapphira, ah yes, were they real estate agents?

I agree, they were punished for lying to the Holy Spirit. I was attributing their motive for lying to "holding back" from the Lord.

Wonder if any Christians do anything like that today? Hmm.

 

Did I compare the hypocrites Jesus was referring to in Matthew 7:21-23 to David in Psalm 51?

If so, I sure didn`t mean to.

 

Scribe, I guess I have to ask you - did Jesus GRANT FORGIVENESS ON THE CROSS, IN FINALITY AND COMPLETION ? (not exactly your quote, but fairly close.)

Cause I thought He paid the sin-debt that the world has lived with from the Garden of Eden. But, to claim that freedom from bondage, a person must REPENT FIRST (Matthew 4:17), follow Acts 2:38, which is not a work, as some think. 

 

And, I have to ask, is your position from a Calvinistic perspective? 

 

Well, I`m glad we had this conversation.

 

Grace and Peace.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on March 15, 2011 at 12:37am

Hi Richard, I'll answer your questions, but first let me tell you what I like about your response:

 

1. "Remember, crucifixion is a SLOW DEATH, and sometimes it takes a while for us to shed our skins (sanctification)."   I heartily agree with you that the point of "taking up our cross" is to realize that we must "crucify" the sinful nature with it's evil desires and that his a slow arduous death. 

 

2. I really like that you are open to conversing and considering this together.

 

My answers to your thoughts and questions:

a) although I repented (turned to God and away from my former life, dead in trespasses and sins) about 25 years ago, I have been working on that unconditional surrender on mostly a daily basis ever since. I was born-again by the Spirit of God in 1986, but have been fighting a battle with the flesh man for the entire time since. I have not mastered unconditional surrender. The Flesh Man refuses to surrender, so I must take him captive at every opportunity. He eludes capture more often than I would like to admit. I sort of think of him as a giant troll in the basement, who is a master of tricks. Just when I think I have him chained up, he begins to masquerade as a proud man. I have to be constant about locking him down. Thanks be to God, it's been years since he's got completely out of his cell.

 

I can tell you this: I love God and I am actively responding to God's relentless pursuit of my soul. But, if it were not for his grace and mercy - I'd be hopeless. I know my flesh well enough to admit that to you. I'm a sinner. I can barely put a good face on it most of the time. Aside from the power of Christ in me, it would just be lipstick on a pig. Like Paul, I find myself routinely doing the things I do not want to do - and doing the things I hate (Romans 7:15).

 

b) “would you agree that a person comes to Christ "just as they are" at that point in time? I think so.” Richard, yes, absolutely. Nothing to my Lord I bring, but simply to the cross I cling. Usually, that is not what a person understands, and often is not what is taught in churches. Typically, I hear people say “you have to repent of all your sins for God to save you” - so, forgive me for that is what I understood you to be saying.

 

c) “they "should turn to God, performing deeds appropiate to repentance." (Taken from last part of Acts 26:20). So the person must "shed" the "old man" like a snake sheds its skin.” I'm still working on shedding that old man of sin. God has put me in a pressure cooker for ...oh... about 25 years or so now, where that old man is being burned off like dross. I know God is not done yet. I guess the question is what are the “deeds appropriate to repentance”? I see repentance as different from sanctification. The way I understand Paul's sermon there is that he is saying gentiles need to turn to their creator and recognize they have offended Him by thinking it was possible to live apart from Him.

 

d) “What if the person wants to hold on to some of his favorite past-times, and still call himself a good Christian?” I suppose that depends on the past-times. I know guys who are “bikers for Jesus”. They love riding their Harleys and they use it as a means to witness to the rougher crowds. If you mean adultery and fornication, that's a different matter right? Because those are called sins and iniquities. But, Richard, I think we dare not be haughty – because Jesus says lust is basically the same sin (although I think it's arguable to be a lesser degree). The problem I typically see among Christians is that we quit certain sins, but take up new ones. I'm reluctant to take on a doctrine that says a person can become sinless and live a life of perfection. That belief was held by Wesley and is typically held by “Wesleyans” today – but it is severely fallible. I won't say that it is impossible – with God all things are possible. But, it is improbable; and more to the point, I don't see even the Apostles as examples of that, nor of teaching it.

Inevitably, a person will say “are you advocating sin?” To which I say “God forbid”. I'm saying that the heart of the matter is having a heart for God; to love God. Sin offends my Father – I think a true disciple wants to stay away from it. And my sin can become a stumbling block to another person, which I don't want to be responsible for. I want my heart to be a place where God dwells. If I am harboring sin, then God is not my treasure.

e) “did Jesus GRANT FORGIVENESS ON THE CROSS ...”

Well, Richard, Jesus said some profound things on the cross, according to his closest eye witness, John.

First, he said “Father forgive them, they know not what they do.” (Luke 23:34) You could say in a general sense he was pronouncing forgiveness, although His specific plea was for his tormentors at that moment.

Second, Jesus said something that is translated either “it is finished” or “the debt is paid”. There is no direct English translation of his one word statement recorded by John “Tetelestai”, which means the entire debt is paid in full. It was a legal term for completing a large bill or debt that had to be paid. (John 19:30)

In Colossians, Paul says “having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself” (Colossians 1:20)

In 2 Corinthians 5:19 Paul says “that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting men's sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.”

In 1 John 2:2 John says “he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for [the sins of] the whole world”

So, yes, we appropriate the forgiveness through repentance, but the forgiveness was granted at the cross. I know that's rarely taught, but it's what scripture says.

f) finally, no I am not a Calvinist. My Calvinist friends go ape when I tell them that I believe in freewill – however I completely see freewill as abiding within God's sovereign choice and calling. Ephesians does use the term "predestined".   [But, LT asked us not to go down that path in this conversation]. If anything, I see myself as a reformer of sorts: I want to lead people to believe the scripture and let the Lord speak His truth, no matter who it confounds. I don't really care who gets flustered, as long as the Word of the Lord is proclaimed.

Blessings and Peace, for the sake of Christ.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on March 15, 2011 at 2:07pm

My Brother in Christ, Scribe,

 

If you were here in Mesa, Arizona right now, I`d give you a great big fellowship hug!

We have quite a few similarities in our lives. And that might be more common in the Body of Christ than people realize.

As an adult, I answered the Invitation in church, made the public confession, and was baptized. But, Scribe, I really wasn`t born again. My life didn`t change much because I hardly denied anything, and usually left my cross in the garage when I left the house daily. My snakeskin was pretty intact for years.

 

But, somewhere along the way, the Holy Spirit touched my heart, and I turned out like you. Through God`s great mercy and grace  I have been able to walk in love after finally repenting. The snakeskin has been falling off like pounds at a weight-watchers` convention ever since. However, the war still goes on (Galatians, Chapter 5). 

 

You`re right - repentance is not part of sanctification. But I think it is the opening kick-off that starts the game of sanctification.

 

Hey! That`s so cool about comparing not having the in-dwelling power of Christ to a pig with lipstick. Can I use that in a sermon sometime?

 

When Jesus was tempted by Satan, He faced the three main areas of life that we as humans face every day: (1) Personal Needs & Desires (2) Power & Possessions (3) Pride.

I think pride is the toughest one for us to deal with.

 

We`ll have to talk more about the point/time of salvation at another time. I`m kinda talked out right now, Bro.

I`m glad we had this conversation.

Grace and Peace.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by ScribeD on March 22, 2011 at 7:02pm

Richard, I'd love to meet you next time I'm in the area. I have some family down that way.I will make a point to contact you, when I'm headed there.

 

I would just say that if you want to use anything I say in a sermon, make sure it passes muster with the Lord first! Ha!

 

You are absolutely right about pride. Much harder and more elusive than the things we typically think are the "tough" sins.

 

It's interesting that you mention football. I think that the Christian life is like a football game where offense and defense are playing simultaneously on two separate halves of the field. Your offense team can have their ball near the goal line, but your defense is still getting punted down field by the devil while you're not watching and he's scoring a field goal. [I know, it's a warped picture].

anyway...

 

I'll be honest with you about my convictions of the when and how of "salvation": I don't think we can narrowly define it - and ultimately only God knows.

         I think some people are like me and they can point to a moment in time when they repented, prayed and began to follow Jesus. Others are more difficult. My wife prayed the sinners prayer long before she had any sense that she was "saved". She has said many times that she did it to please me, and to fulfill duty to God whom she doubted was real in the early years. She refused to be baptized for quite a while. Her doubt often made me wonder about her, because she did not have the radical conversion that I did. God proved himself to her for many years. Now? Years later? She's the stalwart Christian with the rock-ribbed faith and a daily minute-by-minute walk with God. I can't define when it happened for her - and neither can she.

 

I have an In-law family member who was raised in a traditional Christian heritage. He didn't know God, and often challenged my faith over many years. He totally doubted my testimony. Then, one day he began to ask me about being baptized. He was fearful, because he believed he may go to Hell. In his mind it was not because of his sin, but because he hadn't been baptized as an infant "like (he) was supposed to". He had some health problems and was concerned he may die.

   My first inclination was to dismiss the idea totally and say "you can't be baptized because you aren't saved". In fact, I did something very much like that. Then, I began to pray about it and was convinced the Lord was saying "help him put his faith in me, so he can be baptized". So, I did. I told him we needed to do a Bible study so he could be prepared and that I would find a good church in his area. To my surprise, he was very excited that I would do this!

    So, we began to do the Roman's Road Bible study. I took time to make sure he understood the points at each section. In the end, he: 1) confessed he was a sinner 2) admitted that he needed a savior 3) admitted that Jesus could be the only savior able to appease the wrath of God. Then, we prayed. Then I said "it's not enough to believe that Jesus died for your sins. You need to put faith in Him based on His resurrection - and we read the account of that from the 4 Gospels. So, I asked him "do you believe Jesus rose from the dead'? He got a light in his eyes and said emphatically "YES, I do".

    I told him that he was ready to be baptized and helped him find a church that would do the ceremony. After that, I had no time to disciple him or guide him, which I regret. However the LORD has moved in his life. My friend prays daily, reads a daily bible selection, goes to church and follows a Bible study broadcast weekly. He has quit his overtly sinful habits and has begun to seek to know God.

 

At the time, i would have said this was the "wrong" way to do it. But, the Spirit showed me that I was caught up on semantics and needed to see the posture of my friend's heart. He was ready to put his life in God's hands, but needed guidance that he could understand. His frame of reference was that baptism was the way to please God. The Lord showed me that I needed to help him prepare for exactly that: please God by being Baptized - after completing a transforming study through the word of God.

 

I share this story just to say that we tend to limit the Lord, when we should take His example and call people forward to follow Jesus. When Jesus called Peter, it was to be a fisher of men. But, when He called Levy, it was to leave his tax booth. When He called Nathaniel, it was by acknowledging his prayer by the tree. Can anyone doubt that He called Thomas to follow him by inviting Thomas to inspect his wounds, after the resurrection?

 

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sharon on March 23, 2011 at 9:39am

Well for me Jesus said that by the fruits people shall know that we belong to Him and because God is love we should also be love not in love or growing to love but love. It should be noted also that one of the fruit of the Spirit is love and I believe that salvation began with love and we should live in love.  no where in the bible have I seen where days, dates etc have been mentioned but Jesus said that a new commandment He has given that we should love one another as He has loved us (my interpretation). This is found in John 13:34.

 

Therefore the question is what is love and how do we live love? Love is being willing to die for each other as the body of Christ - isnt that what Christ did? Therefore my answer is loving as Christ loved us is the first step.

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 23, 2011 at 11:39am

Sharon,

 

Yes, love and sacrifice are two marks of a true disciple. Good input.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on March 23, 2011 at 1:23pm

Brother Scribe,

 

Thank you for your words. I am in total agreement.

Maybe the phrase - "Different strokes for different folks" applies to individuals coming to Christ. You`re right. Christians tend to put God in that old familiar box, and "limit" what He should, or could, do. And what label needs to be attached.

His ways (are so far above us) seem to vary in various applications in each child of God`s walk. See, my situation was kind of like your sweetie`s, but not quite the same. I still don`t know exactly when I was  saved; and there`s no doubt in my heart that I am.

 

That`s a great story about your in-law family member. The verse which started his redemption process could be Proverbs 9:10,

"The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom, and knowledge of the Holy One is understanding."

At any rate, Scribe, you scored a touchdown; and a touchdown beats a field goal every time. Keep scoring!

 

Grace and Peace.

 

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Theophane on March 23, 2011 at 2:59pm

What are the marks of a true disciple? My answer I give in list-form, as follows: 

 

1. Love
2. Joy
3. Peace
4. Longsuffering
5. Kindness
6. Goodness
7. Faithfulness
8. Gentleness
9. Self-control / Temperance

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 23, 2011 at 7:00pm

Theophane,

 

Yes, the "Fruit of the Spirit" is part of the marks. Good input. Would you care to share as an encouragement to others how a disciple might display a couple of them in their lives?

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Richard L. Broch, Sr. on March 23, 2011 at 6:26pm

Greetings in Christ`s Name,

 

I think another mark of a true disciple of Christ is to be "buried with Him through baptism"(Romans 6).

It seems the act of baptism by immersion is becoming less important to those coming forward to receive Jesus in these times.

I understand some churches have adopted baptism as an "option" for the new convert to decide.

 

When Peter answered "What shall we do?" in Acts 2:38, he said," Repent, and let each one of you BE BAPTIZED IN THE NAME OF JESUS CHRIST FOR THE FORGIVENESS OF YOUR SINS; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

 

Matthew 3:13,"Then Jesus arrived from Galilee at the Jordan coming to John, to be baptized by him.(14) But John tried to prevent Him, saying,"I have need to be baptized by You, and do You come to Me?"(15) But Jesus answering said to him,"Permit it at this time; for in this way it is fitting for us to fulfill all righteosness." Then he permitted Him.

 

The Word of God is clear regarding baptism (Greek- baptizo, to dip) and I bear this mark of a true disciple with honor and gratitude. Amen.

 

Grace and Peace.

 

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on March 23, 2011 at 7:02pm

Richard,

 

Unfortunately, what you have pointed out is becoming the norm, which is obviously not what God has intended. Baptism is not an "option." Thanks for pointing that out.

 

Lord Bless,

LT

• ▶ Reply

Permalink Reply by Sharon on March 24, 2011 at 12:46pm

I wish to share somethign that happenned to me this year.

On Feb 14 this year I was to get married to the man that I loved for as long as I can remember.  The bottom line is that he never turned up for the wedding. Next I disovered that my debit card to which my salary goes was used from before the 14th to draw my money that I had inluding my salary for this month. All that was left was $38.75 J$.

 

When he did not turn up for the wedding I sought God's answer. I ws told "it is my Will but its not the season". I pondered this wondering if it meant that the guy and I should still get married or I should run from this guy. I chose the first while still seeking God's guidance. 

In December 09 I noticed that I could not find my debit card. I asked him more than one times if he had seen it or if he had it. The response was no. Then can someone tell me please how my salary was deducted from the account with the missing card in another parish that I had no reason to be during that time? It should also be noted that I did not even know that I had got paid but was waiting for today as I thought this woud have been my pay day (today).  After taking the necessary precautions the bank have/or soon will hand over the matter to the Fraud Squad.

 

In my heart I am thinking of his child although he never thought of  mine. I am praying do I send this man to prison? Wouldnt this bring the gospel of Christ into disrepute? Then I remembered 70 times 7. You see only he had access to the debit card, he had acess to my home at the time, he had a key to go and come as he pleased even when I was not at home.  Believers I am talking about a man that I have committed to, to spend the rest of my life with for better or worse etc.

Now I put this to you. Am I being a true disciple if I allow him to be punished by the laws of the land? Do I stop the process when it has been proven without a doubt that this man has unjustly defrauded me of my month's salary? I am wearing the ring until the proof is given then if he is guilty I let go.  Was I being stupid and soft in trusting this man? Do I dare trust anyone else after this? Thanks

• ▶ Reply

• ‹ Previous
• 1
• …
• 4
• 5
• 6
• 7
• Next ›
• Page