All About GOD - Growing Relationships with Jesus and Others
We Should Have Left With Him
A little levity - When the Supreme Court kicked God our of our schools, maybe we all should have got up and left with Him. We didn't and ever since we have been guilty of giving our children a godless education. Could that have anything to do with what we are seeing today?
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Replies to This Discussion
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Permalink Reply by RoyW on
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At least you think so. I think we all tend to live in that world. lq If you want to know what lq is, it is laugh quietly. My students are taking a test and I am getting to write this.
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Rita,
The kind of language I object to is this:
We could say Roy “the Christ” or “the one anointed” by God to preach the gospel to Olathe.
I prefer not to be known as Roy the Christ but rather as Roy the Christian. There is only one Christ and His name is Jesus not Roy. I am encouraging Joe and anyone else to reserve that title for Jesus and Him only. I grew up in the Charismatic circles and walked away from it because of all the sensationalism I found there. However, the movement is full of wonderful people that love God and doing all they can to be like Him. I think sometimes they can be confused by some of the things told them by prophets, etc. I have heard prophets say some pretty outlandish things and actually challenged them to prove it. Of course, they cannot prove their ability to do such sensational acts. It just could be, however, that at times God did something very wonderful through them and they got the idea that God would do that at all times through them. When Peter and John were walking up to the Temple and raised the crippled man, they would find out later that didn't work all the time. God used that to accomplish His will - to reveal His glory to all those fighting Christianity. Those Pharisees could not begin to do such acts. However, we have to acknowledge that when God does something like that, He may not ever do that again or may not do that on a regular basis. I got tired of all the healing rallies, miracle services, etc., and took leave of them. I told those that advertised such events that they had better be able to produce if they were calling a service a miracle service. They always used the excuse that there just wasn't enough faith in the service implying my doubts.
So, if you see me saying something that you don't like, all you have to do is to prove to me that you or anyone else has the ability to raise the dead. I have seen too many try and never perform. If God decides to raise someone from the dead, it will not be due to someone's great faith such as a Wigglesworth or someone else. I grew up in this kind of teaching. I just got tired of it. If there is such a thing as a Wigglesworth, I don't think we have one of those around today. I believe in the Word just not the boasts of man.
Roy
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Permalink Reply by Rita Cullimore on
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Roy,
I do not believe that Jesus left us with the abilities to collect millions of dollars to carry out what He left us with. HE performed His miracles for the good of man. He didn't charge for these services. He asked us to have faith and believe. There was no pot of gold waiting for myself and some of the family that traveled to Savannah Georgia to see Brandilen on her death bed. There was no promise of that. Yet, we went, being told we would see a baby on her deathbed. Before we left, about 1 1/2 hr after getting there, she was on the road to recovery. Even the doctors knew she had been healed miraculously. They had done all they could for her. That was God. If I pray for the healing of a person, I don't say I did it. I do say I followed God's instructions.
God gave us His Word to live by....to learn by. That is what I am saying. That was what Joe was saying, as well. I was saying that we shouldn't put our own slant to God's words. Regarding the lady in the wheelchair...she might very well not been ready to be healed...who knows? I wasn't speaking of the healing services being held at any rate. I didn't see that in Joe's posts either.
I do wonder how we can expect God to do exceedingly abundantly above all we ask or think, if we don't believe what He says. I do wonder how we live without His miracles. I have seen so many blessings...or miracles...I can't remember them all. I expect to see a miracle every day from God. The miracles are God's miracles, possibly triggered by others, their prayers, their beliefs, but God's miracles none the less.
One last thing. The Bible says that there is no greater love than a man laying down his life for a friend. Jesus laid down His life for many "friends". There is no greater love than that. There are many who would say they have that love, but they don't. Christ laid down His life and ushered in the Age of Grace. We, by grace, can perform all the things that are mentioned in the Bible...and greater things, if we are to believe Jesus. I do not believe these promises were for certain people. I believe they are for all who believe in His Name. Unbelief in God's Word is a terrible sin. Unbelief takes all of God's promises and effectively throws them in the trach can. I am not going to do that. Not if I can help it.
Blessings.....
Rita
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Rita,
I think you might be taking some things I am saying personally. The think I took exception to was calling me "Roy the Christ." There might be Scripture that indicates to you that is okay. I do not think that Christ living in me makes me the or a Christ. I believe very strongly in praying for and believing in prayer for the sick. If you believe it is God's will that we heal all the sick through prayer then I might take some exception to that. Peter was instrumental in healing a lame man but there remained others that were not healed. He saw many miracles but I don't see him once talking about those miracles in a boastful way. I really don't think we have much of an issue at all. I'm not sure I know what you believe. If you believe in prayer for the sick believing for their healing, then we are right there together. If you believe that all are going to be healed - well, that might happen someday but I have been around a long time and have never seen that happen. I've heard many talk about that it was God's will to heal all of the sick but we just don't have enough faith. I think that preacher that is claiming that it is God's will to heal everyone needs to acknowledge that the problem is with him and not necessarily the person that is seeking healing. We have run many people off with our God wants to heal everyone of all their diseases message. Many people leave from those services thinking there was something wrong with them since they have just heard about all these wonderful miracles that this guy has performed. Some feel that God doesn't love them as much. I have known some wonderful saints that were not healed and died with their disease. I have known others that were healed. If a person has the message that it is God's will to heal all diseases all the time, then you do not have the ability to minister to those that are not being healed. Your only response to them would be that the individual needs to pray more, read more, forgive more, have more faith, etc. I don't think that you or Joe really believe that.
I do think the issue of sickness and disease does enter into the discussion of the sovereignty of God. I'm not sure we want to get into that. There are so many areas of discussion that I sometimes think we have not done a good job answering and have become less relevant to our world. It might be that we don't need to address some of these issues. Maybe some have faith while others do not and no matter what we say would cause them to change their minds. Some are not interested in hearing the Gospel but I do think the Gospel needs to answer some questions.
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Roy,
I'm not taking anything personally. I simply believe that you are putting too much emphasis on Joe's word and not actually listening to what he said. WE are to be like Christ. That is what he said. We are to be so much like Him that one could mistake us for Him. End of that.
Maybe God knows who we will pray for healing for and He will oblige us. All I know is that I need to work towards what God does mean. Even in our dotage ;), we should be able to read God's instructions and follow them much better than we are. But we fail there. Whenever healing isn't coming forth, God's Grace needs to be sufficient for us. Our first message after then one about salvation, is to put forth God's desires. Not what we think they are, but what God meant when He wrote them to us. Was the preacher who states that God wants all of us healed lying? I don't think so. Will all of us be healed? I don't think that either.
We spend too much time arguing about what God means and not trying to discern what God means. Does God talk out both sides of His mouth? I don't believe that for a moment. What are the greater miracles Jesus was referring to?
Many aren't healed these days because of their unbelief...or our unbelief...which ever one chooses. To be Christ-like, we need to learn what He is saying to us and then put it into practice. We don't need to doubt Him when He tells us something. Also, how many people attend a healing service that don't believe in God? I'm sure there are many.
The one place you and I don't agree is that God can heal, is willing to heal...whatever term you care to use....and that it's because of unbelief. Although teachers, we need to stay in the learning mode. Disciple mode, if you will. We need to learn a new thing every time we open the Bible. WE need to read God's Word and pray for discernment about them. I believe God is sovereign and in His sovereignty ALL that He states will come to pass. I believe if He said we have the power, then we have the power. It comes down to faith.
IF their are people not healed, it is because of our shortcoming...not God's. If people don't believe, it is because of our actions, not God's. WE are the culprit here, not God.
Blessings.....
Rita
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Permalink Reply by Leonard T on
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Rita,
This whole forum keeps dancing around what Joe said. Let me ask you a simple question based on what Joe said:
Are you "Rita the Christ?"
Lord Bless,
LT
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LT,
I am "Rita, the Christ-ian", because I have Christ in me.
Blessings....
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Yes, Rita, and that is totally different from being called, or being, "Rita the Christ" and that is the whole point.
Lord Bless,
LT
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Roy and Amanda,
Thank you for the testimonies that you took time to write about. They are both pretty awesome. Thanks, Amanda, for telling us rest of the story on the dad who was burnt in a house fire. If you wrote of it before, I missed it. Glad you shared.
There is no way God heals every sick person. That isn't part of His Plan for us. If He did, we would have a world of old, healed Christians. He has a far better plan than complete healing for all. He healed me when the doctors said I couldn't be healed. Even one of my doctors stated publicly that my healing was miraculous. God had more for me to do.
God's Plan is salvation for those that would believe. I prayed, begging and pleading for God to heal Danny. He didn't. However, the effect that Danny had on the lives of our children and grandchildren will never be fully realized. My grandchildren talk freely of him and the lessons he taught them. Those lessons will never die. God is so awesome! But we won't ever understand it all until we get home to Him. He has instructed us through His Word. He gave us the Holy Spirit to us, to guide and comfort us. The Holy Spirit also instructs us, if we will listen to Him.
After I wrote what I did about Brandilen's miraculous healing, my daughter called me and told me that Brandi's cancer had returned. I am completely astounded. I have thought about it constantly through the rest of the day. The only thing that I can think of is that her parents haven't recognized that healing and they continue to do all that they did before she got sick. The grandparents continue of the same path, as well. I will continue to pray for Brandi but I will pray harder for her family. Her home in Heaven is secure, while theirs isn't.
Blessings to you both....
Rita
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Rita,
It may be difficult for you to believe but I am open to His Word. I am trying to understand it in light of the dear saints that I have known in the past that were strong believers in healing but did not get healed. I also know those who did get healed. My grandfather was miraculously healed from cancer but had Alzheimer when he died. He was ninety-some years old at this death but really didn't know anyone. My dad also died with that same disease. Can God heal that disease? Of course He can. Did He heal my dad and grandpa? They both were believers and preachers of healing yet both died with that disease.
I once prayed for a person whose wife was in a motorcycle gang. I found them when I was walking down a street looking for those to whom to witness. I saw them outside, walked up to their porch and they were all drinking beer and having a gay old time. They laughed at me when I brought up God to them but didn't beat me up or anything. I invited them to church. The wife cussed and said it didn't matter anyway as her husband was probably going to die with a brain tumor. He had just been diagnosed with a large tumor in his head by the KU Med Center. He was going to be going into the Center in a week to be operated on hoping they would be able to get it. I asked them about their souls and invited them to church. They continued drinking their beer and laughing at me. They were pretty crude. They told me that they would not be coming to church. That day, however, something got into my head that I could not shake. I had the strong sensation that God wanted to heal that man. I returned a couple times that week trying to get them to come to church. It didn't work. I wanted him to come to church and let me pray for him to be healed and hopefully to be saved.
They would not come and the morning he was to go into the KU Med Center to have the tumor removed I was up at 4 AM. I could not shake this feeling that I was supposed to pray for him. They lived only a block from the church and I decided to go over there before he went. I knocked on the door and noticed their surprise at my being there. I asked if I could pray for him before he went in to the hospital. This time he was very ready for me to pray. I told him that for some reason I felt God wanted to heal him. I was way outside my comfort zone in this one. I prayed that God would heal him. The next day he was home. This time they came to my house. The tumor was completely gone and they were ready to hear anything I had to say about the Gospel. They came into church the next Sunday and the whole family walked the aisle for salvation. Revival broke out and several got saved and healed.
Many times I have tried to duplicate that experience. Yet, it was not my faith and certainly not their faith that healed that man. It was simply God's will. The only way something like that happens in my life is when I have that strange feeling that God wants to do something. But, unless He does it, it does not get done. I have no way of doing things like that. I have prayed for many others. Some get healed and some don't. I just anointed a man with cancer last Friday. I am believing he will be completely healed. I pray that he will. I believe in divine healing. I have seen it many times. I just don't think that is something that you and I can do. It has to be God when and where.
That should give you a little more insight into my thinking. I love it when God does something big. You will not find me speaking against His miraculous powers.
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Permalink Reply by Amanda on
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Roy, it really touched my heart when you shared about the man with the brain tumor who was healed and then received Jesus and there was a revival. At risk of sounding like making this all about me I will share with you that I, too, have experienced a few times when God really laid it on my heart to pray for someone because He was going to do something amazing.
The most recent was when a friend of mine lost two of her children in a house fire. They were ages 4 and 5 and their dad was also severely injured and my friend worried that she would lose him, too. She is a middle school teacher and has 8 children but the other 6 were in school that day this past February.I heard the news and immediately felt a tremendous need to visit him in ICU. I thought -- can't I just pray for his healing and stay at home, Lord? But no, I had to go.
He was in a coma and on life support and they were talking about scheduling surgeries for skin grafts and he was on a ventilator and not breathing on his own and they were scheduling him for a tracheotomy. Only family were being permitted to see him but when I arrived at the hospital they allowed me to go back there. I was in there for only a few minutes and I touched his arm and prayed for him silently. I think God wanting me to visit and pray for him was more to increase my faith than anything else. I know my going and my touching him had nothing to do with his healing but God heard my prayers and honored my obedience. It helped me at the time … just knowing that God was still speaking to me and still using me.
During the next few days, they didn't have to remove the ventilator and do a tracheotomy. When they removed the ventilator he began to breathe on his own. His burns healed without leaving any scars. He woke up from a coma and had to be told that his two girls had died and that he had missed their funeral.
I believe in God the Father and in Christ and in Holy Spirit so I am not sure how unbelief precludes people from healing or being healed and performing miracles and living the abundant life and all of that. I believe in all the spiritual gifts and in God's power that flows through us. I know faith is important but I also know that many have believed for healing wholeheartedly and still died.
My friend Elizabeth was one of those people. She was 42 and had a complete hysterectomy because of uterine cancer. A few months later she had a double mastectomy and a bone marrow transplant and through it all she stayed positive and believed for her healing and would not even talk about the possibility that she could die. In her mind it wasn’t going to happen and she never relented and the cancer spread to her brain and I was there the day her husband and two sons had to remove her from life support. All of this happened over the course of about a year’s time. Elizabeth spent her last year feeling happy though because she certainly did not think she was going to die.
I was with hospice for 7 years and I also saw many hospice patients holding onto hope but dying anyway. One lady had tears of grief and disappointment in her eyes on the day she passed and another said "I can't believe it ... I am really dying ... I can't believe it ...” I could go on but I won’t. I would never say to anyone “If only you had more faith” or “this happened because of your unbelief” … that would seem so heartless to me.
Blessings,
Amanda
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Char,
Your praying for Connie may well have been for you as much as for her benefit. It has been a long time since Elizabeth died ... I still see her oldest son from time to time. He's a great guy and he works where my husband works and the last time I saw him was at the company Christmas party in 2009, I think, and we chatted and I got to meet his wife. Her youngest son died in 2010. He had led a pretty troubled life after losing his Mom. I think it affected him more deeply than anyone imagined. I am trying to remember what year Elizabeth died -- I think it was 1999 but I am not sure. He was still a teenager when she died. He was 28 when he died and left behind a wife and two young children. He took his own life. I didn't go to the funeral. I asked my husband if he had seen the oldest son at work and had talked to him about the death, and he said yes, he had, and it was being taken pretty hard. He was mad at his little brother. I felt guilty for not going to the funeral. He died on March 10, 2010. I remember that well because of the circumstances. It was very sad.
You are right though about Elizabeth's positive attitude affecting others in a good way at the time she was fighting her battle with cancer. She was admired. Bless her heart. It was likely 1999 because I remember how much she adored my son and he was only about six months old when I first meat Elizabeth and I knew her for a little over two years. I met her while working for the home health agency where her mother was a patient and I visited her mother who was staying at Elizabeth's home because she had just been discharged from the hosiptal and was still too ill to go back to her own home.
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