Unity in the church

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 24, 2016 at 2:42pm

No, there is only one truth. If we are wrong by missing God's truth then we are still in error regardless of persuasion. To what degree that error is may vary, but still in error just the same.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 30, 2016 at 8:49pm

Are we judged based on our unknowing error? If true then we'll always be sinning of one obscure thing or another and constantly repenting of everything, just in case. It would cause me to question God's grace, continually thinking everything I believe could be in error and therefore I can't possibly please God.

This is why I go to this particular passage. God isn't the one who condemns. But if we're never convinced of some point we'll condemn ourselves by worrying that we're wrong and going to face judgement for trying yet still getting it wrong. We'll constantly wonder if we're in error and be consumed with fear of being judged on it that we forget this is WHY Christ died. So we won't be judged for our inability to be righteous. So He could take all the judgement and punishment instead of us. We're always going to fail at some belief or action without always knowing we are actually failing. But we can rest knowing this is why Christ volunteered to take our punishment and thank God for giving us what we could never obtain ourselves.

This is why I said there is only one true interpretation. But if we're convinced through studying the Word and seeking truth, then to us it IS the truth. It may not be THE truth, but it's the only truth we know.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 22, 2016 at 10:11pm

OK now who said I was long winded? LOL

Actually it depends on which translation one will believe.

I commend to you our sister Phoebe, a deacon of the church in Cenchreae. Romans 16:1 NIV

It's the disciples who were given the great commission, yes. But what was that commission?

Mark 16

15 He said to them, “Go into all the world and preach the gospel to all creation.16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: In my name they will drive out demons; they will speak in new tongues;18 they will pick up snakeswith their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well.”

 

Jesus was not excluding women from healing, casting out demons...every gift He was bestowing on all that believe. 

Did He personally say women should not or did He act according to the times in that there were man-made laws against it, that women were considered property and were uneducated? As Paul spoke of women speaking out in the church was brought on by dissention in the church, it's all about unity. There wasn't unity then and none now. What else did Paul say?

1 Corinthians 1

27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;

What did God think of women? Did He distinguish between male and female when He called us children? How about the future?

Acts 2:17

17 “‘In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams.

Wasn't it man made regulations and legal red tape that Jesus opposed?

I think Carla was the one that mentioned Jesus glasses. Of everything we do know of Him, we know that love was first and foremost. When churches argue this or any other issue, are the arguments out of love for God and all His children? Or are they out of a stubborn letter of the law to be considered right? To be the denomination which understands God's Word better than any other? To be the denomination walking in accordance to God? Which is no different than saying no one else does. And each believes they're just being discerning.

Throughout Scripture, God always used the most unlikely.  If a woman can lead men to Christ when a man would not be able to bring as many to believe, do we believe God will choose to have less people brought to believe in order to not have a woman do the teaching? 

You'll note that in all of Paul's talk on this issue, he refers to wives. Why would he not have addressed widows without husbands, unmarried women who've lost their families? Who would they go home and ask? And since we're told that the whole world couldn't contain all of what Jesus did, it's very probable that everything done by anyone in Scripture wasn't recorded. This is one reason why we have to gauge context and put on our Jesus glasses. 

Since we'll all know fully then, unless one is teaching a Gospel other than Christ, why not follow what Jesus would do? 

Luke 9

49 “Master,” said John, “we saw someone driving out demons in your name and we tried to stop him, because he is not one of us.”

50 “Do not stop him,”Jesus said, “for whoever is not against you is for you.”

And the other issue is the "in authority" part. Is one in authority of someone who chooses to learn from them? Which would cause the most dissention in the church? 

If we're to ever learn to love one another and be at peace with everyone, this type of issue is among many that will need to reach a consensus to agree to disagree of sorts. Each is free to attend that church that allows or disallows it according to what they believe. Since anything not if faith is sin, would this mean that anyone trying to talk another out of such belief could be leading them to sin? A bit of a conundrum ain't it? ;-)  LOL

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 20, 2016 at 11:22am

If 1 Tim 2:9-15 is to be taken literally rather than culturally I had better stop wearing my pearls , gold and expensive clothes.  My wedding ring is made of gold....  I don't think my husband would be very happy if I told him the bible tells me to not wear gold so therefore I can't wear my wedding ring.  I have diamonds in my wedding ring... They're kind of expensive and flashy.

What is proper clothing in this context? 

1 tim 2

       9Likewise, I want women to adorn themselves with proper clothing, modestly and discreetly, not with braided hair and gold or pearls or costly garments, 10but rather by means of good works, as is proper for women making a claim to godliness. 11A woman must quietly receive instruction with entire submissiveness. 12But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet. 13For it was Adam who was first created, and then Eve. 14And it was not Adam who was deceived, but the woman being deceived, fell into transgression. 15But women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

What about 1 Cor 11--Is it literal or cultural?

Christian Order

      1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.

      2Now I praise you because you remember me in everything and hold firmly to the traditions, just as I delivered them to you. 3But I want you to understand that Christ is the head of every man, and the man is the head of a woman, and God is the head of Christ. 4Every man who has something on his head while praying or prophesying disgraces his head. 5But every woman who has her head uncovered while praying or prophesying disgraces her head, for she is one and the same as the woman whose head is shaved. 6For if a woman does not cover her head, let her also have her hair cut off; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or her head shaved, let her cover her head. 7For a man ought not to have his head covered, since he is the image and glory of God; but the woman is the glory of man. 8For man does not originate from woman, but woman from man; 9for indeed man was not created for the woman’s sake, but woman for the man’s sake. 10Therefore the woman ought to have a symbol of authority on her head, because of the angels. 11However, in the Lord, neither is woman independent of man, nor is man independent of woman. 12For as the woman originates from the man, so also the man has his birth through the woman; and all things originate from God. 13Judge for yourselves: is it proper for a woman to pray to God with her head uncovered? 14Does not even nature itself teach you that if a man has long hair, it is a dishonor to him, 15but if a woman has long hair, it is a glory to her? For her hair is given to her for a covering. 16But if one is inclined to be contentious, we have no other practice, nor have the churches of God.

      17But in giving this instruction, I do not praise you, because you come together not for the better but for the worse. 18For, in the first place, when you come together as a church, I hear that divisions exist among you; and in part I believe it. 19For there must also be factions among you, so that those who are approved may become evident among you. 20Therefore when you meet together, it is not to eat the Lord’s Supper, 21for in your eating each one takes his own supper first; and one is hungry and another is drunk. 22What! Do you not have houses in which to eat and drink? Or do you despise the church of God and shame those who have nothing? What shall I say to you? Shall I praise you? In this I will not praise you.

It is a dishonor to a man to have long hair..... Why is Jesus depicted with long hair?  Of course we don't know what He looks like except for the very brief descriptions we get in scripture.

What about if a women wears her hair short?  It's disgraceful according to these verses.

What happens with cancer treatments?  Nowadays they are common and they extend a person's life, but with treatments a patient loses her hair...  Is it disgraceful?

1 Tim 1:2:15 says women will be preserved through the bearing of children if they continue in faith and love and sanctity with self-restraint.

...  What about women who can't have children?  Not all women are able to become pregnant.

Some verses are cultural, others are literal, and sometimes there may be more going on that we may not have access to. 

1 Corinthians 13:8-12.

8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when completeness comes, what is in part disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put the ways of childhood behind me. 12For now we see only a reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known.

Thoughts?

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 20, 2016 at 11:38pm

Our attire says a lot about our views & how we view God. A woman dressing seductively isn’t dressing as unto the Lord. It doesn’t reveal His qualities that are suppose to be shining in her life. It reveals that her emphasis is on the worldly rather than on the Godly. Paul is saying the Christian woman should not dress in low cut shirts or dresses, shorts that you have to pull down every step you take, skirts that you have to pull down to get up, tight jeans with the word Juicy on the pocket, tight fitted clothing as far as tight to expose every curvature of the body & other articles that are focused on the woman’s body. The gold is also a sign of the world as far as being proud, flashy & luxurious. I’ve been way guilty of this. My late husband & I lived from hand to mouth & at times wouldn’t have anything to put in our mouths. Power was shut off several times, water was, phone cut off, cars repossessed, etc. I was use to penny pinching, buying store brands, least expensive clothing I could find on the sales rack at Wal-Mart, clearance shoes at Pay Less, etc. If we splurged on anything it would be for Destiny. A payday never passed that he didn’t stop at the store & buy her a handful of special candy that costs more than the normal candy. If he received more for that week, he’d get her something larger. When I would see other ladies wearing their awesome jewelry, their new shoes, new expensive dresses & such, I would have to fight the feelings of being jealous as far as wishing in that moment that I could afford such things. When I met Tim, he wasn’t use to that lifestyle. He paid someone to cut his grass, wash his car, iron his clothes, etc. I saved that man a fortune when we first met. I couldn’t see paying someone money to do things I could do for myself. However, I got ruined quick. I started buying the gold, the jewels, the bracelets, the charms, diamond earrings, clothes, shoes, etc. I had never been able to buy these things & it was pretty amazing as well as fun. My engagement ring was very costly. Sad thing about that ring, I lost it when we moved to Texas which helped me remember the value of stuff. It’s just stuff. He did replace it though. This is one flashy item I don’t mind wearing because it’s a symbol of our commitment.

He’s not saying to not look attractive but to be modest in that attractiveness. It’s the motivation of the heart. He’s not saying you can’t braid your hair or wear modest jewelry. He’s talking about motivation behind what you’re wearing. Are you being modest or flashy? Are you seeking for others to notice you or are you just trying to look great for your man? Does your clothes say Look At Me or does it say Look at Who I serve? Does your outfit reveal your Godly character & speak highly of Him or is it all about the outward appearance & the worldly aspect of how they say we should dress? Should we be peculiar or blend in with the world’s idea of beauty? We’re told to not cause another to stumble. If dressing in a manner that could cause lustful thoughts, bitter feelings, jealousy or anything that would cause anyone to stumble, we should reconsider our dress code.

“Charm is deceitful and beauty is vain; but a woman who fears the Lord, she shall be praised” Pro 31:30.  So, it’s about how we present ourselves as Godly women which again has nothing to do with culture but requirements of how we should present ourselves regardless of what century we live in. I’m tired so I’m going to leave my reply here. I’m going to comment on the other verses you posted tomorrow. 

 

 

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 21, 2016 at 4:40am

 "So, it’s about how we present ourselves as Godly women which again has nothing to do with culture but requirements of how we should present ourselves regardless of what century we live in."

Yes I agree with you saying that it is how we present ourselves as godly women..  But I believe there is even more to it.

It's also cultural...  Pearls and Gold.  My husband bought me a string of pearls...  I could be legalistic about not wearing them, or I could be appreciative that he bought me a beautiful gift and wear them.  My wedding ring is symbolic of the promise we made to each other.  I don't wear either of these items to be flashy or show off.

It's also about motivation of the heart.  :-)

It's also about love.

For example...  A wife who gets a gift from her non-believing husband (or even a believing husband) and refuses to wear them for appearances which could easily come across as self-righteous or religious, could give them the wrong message.

I'll be away from the computer all day.  Joshua has a baseball tourney until  10pm tonight.  3 games, 1 practice.  I'm hoping they move the practice to tomorrow when they may have more time.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 1:08pm

Well, your answer is in your reply. You do it to honor your husband & God. You don't have them between your teeth posing on a couch with a low cut dress revealing to the world all of your goodies. Paul isn't saying not to wear it. He gave these things as examples. Today we could use examples like nose rings, piercings in sensual places for the purpose of someone looking at those places like the belly button. The end result is the same - the products to reach this end is different. As we know, the culture changes as far as what may consider sexy today may not be the same tomorrow. Those were the things that made a woman stand out then & we have the things that make us stand out to be sexy today. So, the same rules apply. The rules are just broken in other ways. Instead of expensive hair braids with expensive jewelry we have tons of gold we can hang around our neck, rings on every finger, etc. Just some thoughts before I actually open my left eye.

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 22, 2016 at 8:52am

"Well, your answer is in your reply. You do it to honor your husband & God"

Yes.  Of course, that's part of my point. :-)

The other part is that it is cultural.  I don't believe that men and/or women wore wedding rings back then, but there is some evidence that the custom has pagan roots.

There are also scriptures which show jewelry being used to represent love devotion and commitment.  (Ezekiel 16:8-12)

Ezekiel 16:8-12New International Version (NIV)

⁸ “‘Later I passed by, and when I looked at you and saw that you were old enough for love, I spread the corner of my garment over you and covered your naked body. I gave you my solemn oath and entered into a covenant with you, declares the Sovereign Lord, and you became mine.

⁹ “‘I bathed you with water and washed the blood from you and put ointments on you. ¹⁰ I clothed you with an embroidered dress and put sandals of fine leather on you. I dressed you in fine linen and covered you with costly garments. ¹¹ I adorned you with jewelry: I put bracelets on your arms and a necklace around your neck, ¹² and I put a ring on your nose, earrings on your ears and a beautiful crown on your head."

It was customary for these marriage gifts to be presented to a queen.  It also indicates God entering into a covenant with the young Nation at Mt Sinai.  

They wore the rings on their nostrils instead of their fingers... I think you mentioned that in one o your earlier comments how that would be unacceptable now?   It's amazing how culture impacts changes in the way we do things.   :-)

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 22, 2016 at 10:23pm

Hey! Do NOT diss Walmart. If it weren't for them if be walking around in nothing. LOL

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 21, 2016 at 4:56am

Unity in the church does not mean that we will agree on every issue. We all are still learning and we find even in our own understanding that as more light is revealed on a topic that we may shift our view or change it completely. This shift or change should take place in the grey areas and not usually in the essentials, though even here we need to be teachable. Yet, even in the essentials we will find variance between true believers without even including the unsaved religious or false teachers.

There must be a standard, and this standard must be God's Word. Even here we will find variances based on how one reads the Word of God. Do we read it as God's Word or a word about God? Do we read it face value, literal or allegoric? Do we seek to understand what God meant by employing exegesis or does one apply eisegesis? Depending on how these various approaches are used will depend on how close we walk in unity or how divided we might be. The question of salvation may not be the center point as one my be a true child of God because they have repented and received Jesus, yet even though two may be children of God they may have a completely different view on their mission, both using the Bible, but have approached it differently (i.e Calvinist and Arminians).

I say all that to say the following: We will naturally gather with those we have an affinity with and must show grace to those with whom we disagree with who are part of the family of God. One last part, grace does not mean we ignore error, but rather we approach the situation and person with love. I cannot sit by and allow a person to teach others, no matter how sincere, that one must earn their way into heaven. If I, because of the desire for unity (code word often for peace, when they are not actually the same thing) ignore this or simply stay silent I am not being true to the Lord or showing love and care for those who may be ensnared by legalism. In this we have not even attempted to address what to do with false teachers or false churches. Putting a cross on the building does not mean that they are children of God inside that building.

The following passage primarily speaks of gifts, but also teaches about unity and grace where there is external differences:

1Co 12:1-31 NIV84  Now about spiritual gifts, brothers, I do not want you to be ignorant.  (2)  You know that when you were pagans, somehow or other you were influenced and led astray to mute idols.  (3)  Therefore I tell you that no one who is speaking by the Spirit of God says, "Jesus be cursed," and no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit.  (4)  There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit.  (5)  There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.  (6)  There are different kinds of working, but the same God works all of them in all men.  (7)  Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.  (8)  To one there is given through the Spirit the message of wisdom, to another the message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,  (9)  to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,  (10)  to another miraculous powers, to another prophecy, to another distinguishing between spirits, to another speaking in different kinds of tongues, and to still another the interpretation of tongues.  (11)  All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he gives them to each one, just as he determines.  (12)  The body is a unit, though it is made up of many parts; and though all its parts are many, they form one body. So it is with Christ.  (13)  For we were all baptized by one Spirit into one body—whether Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and we were all given the one Spirit to drink.  (14)  Now the body is not made up of one part but of many.  (15)  If the foot should say, "Because I am not a hand, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.  (16)  And if the ear should say, "Because I am not an eye, I do not belong to the body," it would not for that reason cease to be part of the body.  (17)  If the whole body were an eye, where would the sense of hearing be? If the whole body were an ear, where would the sense of smell be?  (18)  But in fact God has arranged the parts in the body, every one of them, just as he wanted them to be.  (19)  If they were all one part, where would the body be?  (20)  As it is, there are many parts, but one body.  (21)  The eye cannot say to the hand, "I don't need you!" And the head cannot say to the feet, "I don't need you!"  (22)  On the contrary, those parts of the body that seem to be weaker are indispensable,  (23)  and the parts that we think are less honorable we treat with special honor. And the parts that are unpresentable are treated with special modesty,  (24)  while our presentable parts need no special treatment. But God has combined the members of the body and has given greater honor to the parts that lacked it,  (25)  so that there should be no division in the body, but that its parts should have equal concern for each other.  (26)  If one part suffers, every part suffers with it; if one part is honored, every part rejoices with it.  (27)  Now you are the body of Christ, and each one of you is a part of it.  (28)  And in the church God has appointed first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then workers of miracles, also those having gifts of healing, those able to help others, those with gifts of administration, and those speaking in different kinds of tongues.  (29)  Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles?  (30)  Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?  (31)  But eagerly desire the greater gifts. And now I will show you the most excellent way.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 2:49pm

The reason I wonder if unity relates to disagreement is due to so much of Paul's admonishments to the churches on the division and quarrels, to be followed by John's warnings to the churches in Revelation. But I also can't see that everyone will ever agree on everything. So maybe it's in how it's addressed. Many churches with different beliefs are coming together in a spirit of unity. Over the past perhaps 3 years, my church has been combining with other area churches that are not Pentecostal. Their choir will come to our church or ours to theirs. And we've had combined special services a few times.

But there are still a large number of churches who keep their distance and don't want to mingle with"those kind", calling each other a false religion. So we've certainly not reached a state of unity.

I like what's been happening in our state. I would like to participate in them, but they aren't doable with being a parent or with my medical issues at times.

Most recently, the local churches all joined with Franklin Graham on May 5th on the Capitol steps to pray in unison over our government.

Another was perhaps 2 months ago. There was an upper room meeting by various denominations.

If things like this become the norm and not the anomaly, we'd be at that unity stage. Maybe then we'd see more miracles take place with everyone in unified prayer. Just a thought.

Again, as I muddle through Revelation, I keep sidetracking on certain issues that are intertwined. It may take quite awhile before I get finished with my main topic. LOL

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 23, 2016 at 4:06pm

In essentials, unity; everything else, grace.

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