Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Seek on June 3, 2016 at 4:56am

Black and white would be like...

The only way to the Father is through Jesus not Muhammad not Buddha....)

Thou shall not murder, steal, etc.
A man shall not lie with another man. (Granted you might get someone who tries even saying they're women so it doesn't apply to them, but that is a clear misuse of Scripture to excuse a behavior.
Don't have sex before marriage.
Don't divorce except for adultery (which can become a gray area on what adultery is)
Love God first and then everyone else
Don't get drunk on too much wine (not whether or not to drink at all)

Plenty of dos and don'ts are clearly stated without exception. But some things are not black and white. Just one clear example is head coverings.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on June 5, 2016 at 2:00pm

The problem is that you are using your standard as the base line, the very thing you are trying to speak against. There are many who call themselves Christian who will support abortion, gay rights, and other issues that I see as wrong and clearly black and white. They would lower the base line and accuse you (and me) of being to rigid, strict, or out of touch with the current cultural norms that God must be OK with ... 

I am not arguing for lowering the standards, but am pointing out the problem with assuming that everyone sees the black and white issues as black and white.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on June 7, 2016 at 10:59am

If someone has to play around with whether or not a fetus is a person to get around thou shalt not murder, I think they're grasping at straws. Yes times have definitely changed but just because we want to change our gender for example doesn't give us a way around what Scripture says. We're still born man or woman.

By the way, since we actually can be whatever we want, I'm gonna identify as an ape and go break all 10 Commandments. I mean, those were written for men not apes. LOL

But speaking of that, if we can decide our gender, can I decide I feel like I'm 70 and get SS? ROFL!

But yes, we do have people who want to stretch things into gray areas but I wonder if they can back their assessment with Scripture.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 24, 2016 at 4:33am

What I was saying is that since Jesus did not broach the subject or act in a manner that makes His meaning completely clear, then we can cannot claim He commands this. So yes, then we have to study the situation and audience being addressed, then apply Christ's actions or non-actions, and His demeanor and character in order to reach a conclusion.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 24, 2016 at 2:32pm

The whole of Scripture is of equal value and not only if Jesus said it or not. If we understand that the Word of God is written through man by the Holy Spirit then it is all God's Word and of equal authority from beginning to end. Thus, we have to do the same diligent study with all of Scripture.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 22, 2016 at 4:53pm

Ligonier Ministries 

 

In heaven, the church will be beautiful, as well as good and true. —R.C. Sproul

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 24, 2016 at 7:37pm

I had stopped following this discussion several days ago. I did run across this article today & thought it fit well into this discussion. Just thought I'd share it.

The Peace and Purity of the Church

“Peace be to the brothers, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Grace be with all who love our Lord Jesus Christ with love incorruptible.”

- Ephesians 6:23–24

Paul’s final greeting to us in Ephesians includes a benediction that both “peace” and “love with faith” would be ours “from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ” (Eph. 6:23). This is a fitting way to end the epistle, for peace has been an important theme of Ephesians, both the peace we have with God in Christ Jesus and the peace that results between brothers and sisters in Christ as we strive for unity based on love (Eph. 1:2; 2:14–15, 17; 4:1–3; 6:15). Unity is not based on just any kind of love but on the love of God revealed in the gospel — the Lord’s objective disclosure of Himself. This love is possible only if we trust in the God who has revealed Himself, hence the significance of “love with faith” in Ephesians 6:23.

The twin themes of peace with God and others based on the revealed truth of the Lord’s Word — the peace and the purity of the church — encapsulate the central message of Ephesians. Having ministered in Ephesus (Acts 19:1–10), Paul remained concerned for the believers there and in the surrounding geographical regions. While he was in prison awaiting an audience with the caesar, the apostle became aware of a need for the Christians in Ephesus to have the major doctrines of the faith summarized. So, he wrote to the Ephesians to remind them (and us) that Christ’s work in their behalf was based on the work of the triune God (Eph. 1:1–14). Believing in this Lord brings many blessings to the saints, blessings we can hardly fathom but that we begin to grasp as others pray for our understanding (vv. 11–23). This inheritance is ours not because of our own works but because of the work of Jesus, the benefits of which we receive by faith alone (2:1–9). Nonetheless, this faith proves itself in good works, and we demonstrate our belief in the work of love and our striving for Christian unity. After all, we believe in One who has torn down sinful divisions among His people (2:10–3:21). The grounding for this love is the gospel itself, which creates a people who glorify the Lord by abandoning the ways of this world and manifesting the reality of Christ (4:1–6:9). We persist in such a life only as we don the armor of God and war against Satan (6:10–20).

Christ demands peace and purity in His church. May we strive for both with a fervent and righteous passion to see God’s glory manifested among His people.

Coram Deo

Take time today to read back through Ephesians and thank God for what we have learned. Ask Him to make you more loving and more willing to stand for the essential truths of the Christian faith. Also, ask Him that you would be willing and able to serve as a model to other believers as one who promotes with fervor the church’s peace and purity. Seek the help of other Christians in working to foster unity and truth in Christ’s body.

Passages for Further Study

Ephesians 1:15–23; 3:14–21; 4:25–32

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on June 7, 2016 at 8:30am

Thank You Tammy, this has summed it up perfectly.

I found this and thought it was relevant to this discussion.

Isn’t it strange that when the world claims to desire unity that its emphasis is rapidly becoming diversity? This is because the world cannot solve the problem of disunity, it cannot stop wars, and it cannot bring peace. Only Christ can change a heart and cause a person to esteem others more highly than himself. Only Christ is the answer. Obviously then, the world’s approach of tolerance will not work. Tolerance merely accepts the reality that differences, conflicts, disagreements, and contradictions are here to stay. It thus tells people that there is no right or wrong position, belief, or behavior, but that all people are just different. When tolerance becomes the rule, true unity becomes impossible because truth is cast aside. Tolerance stops pursuing truth, opting in exchange for the acceptance of all ideas and practices. The bitter irony of the tolerance and diversity agenda is that it cannot tolerate or embrace as equally valid those who hold to universal truth or who believe in an exclusively right religion.  Therein it is self-defeating.

Tolerance emphasizes differences, while the Bible emphasizes unity. Tolerance says that it accepts all things and people, but it is unable to truly love others. It merely tolerates them. Christianity, on the other hand, says that, though others might be different and even wrong about something, they can still be loved. Tolerance doesn’t love others enough to tell them that they are wrong, unless of course they are being “intolerant.” The bottom line is that if tolerance is practiced in the church, then truth will be minimized, love will be exchanged for acceptance, and true Biblical unity will be forfeited.

John 17:21-23 says,

“That they may all be one; even as You, Father, are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us, so that the world may believe that You sent Me. The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.” 

This passage leaves no doubt that true unity comes by people being in Christ as they repent of their sin and put their faith in Him. Christ prays for His disciples and for all who would come after them (the church) that they would be unified. This unity can only happen if we are grafted into Christ by faith. Unity thus requires an adherence to truth, which is personified by Christ Himself, Who is the truth (John 14:6). True unity is that we be one as Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus and the Father are literally one God, believing the same things, thinking the same things, doing the same things, and so on. There is nothing that is more indicative of oneness than the example of Jesus and the Father. Jesus said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father (John 14:9). True unity then, as Jesus prays, is that we join Their unity, being in Them. It is Jesus in us, the Father in Jesus, and, by implication, us in the Father and in Jesus. We are made part of Christ’s body, spiritually speaking. True unity requires that we receive Christ as our Savior and Lord and let Him indwell us.  So only through Jesus, Who is the Truth, can unity ever be possible. 

If we as God’s people want to be unified, we must become more and more like Christ. We do this as we apply His Word and understand it. John 17:17, just a few verses earlier, is a lead-in to Christ’s prayer for unity. He gives us, in essence, the key to pursuing this unity among brothers and sisters in Christ. He prays to the Father, “Sanctify them in the word; Your word is truth.” True unity will increase as we are conformed to the Word of God in belief and obedience. It is through right understanding of the Scripture that true unity takes place. 

Some Christians erroneously encourage a settling for a plurality of viewpoints in the church. Not being conformed to the truth, the church of plurality becomes a church of tolerance. We just agree to disagree. This is the world coming into the church. The fact is that somebody is right and somebody is wrong. Some denominations are right on some things, and others are right on others. The very meaning of the word “denomination” implies inherent division and disagreement. The problem with this is that Christ’s prayer is not speaking of merely the invisible unity that the professing body of Christ should possess but a visible unity that the world can see, perceive, and through which it can be impacted. The goal of Christ’s prayer is that the world would know and believe that the Father sent the Son and that the Son loved His people. If the church is not unified visibly, then the progress of the gospel is obstructed. The only way that true visible unity will happen is if true invisible unity occurs first. This can only happen, not if we learn to just accept different traditions as all valid and equal versions, but if we pursue the truth according to the infallible Word of God. 

This is not mere rhetoric or wishful thinking. Christ prayed for it, and we should to. The fact of the matter is that the Spirit’s job is to lead believers into all truth, not just some truth or the truth that pertains merely to the basics of Christian belief (John 16:13). His purpose and mission is to draw us into Christ and God according to the word of the Father. If we are to be one as God and Christ are one, the Spirit must apply the Word of God to our hearts. We must yield ourselves humbly to finding out what Scripture says. Theology books may say one thing, seminaries and their doctrinal systems another, and denominational leaders yet another, but the Bible says the truth. If true unity is ever to be manifested on earth, it will only be in the church of Jesus Christ and only as it conforms to the truth of God’s Word. The world’s attempts at unity are feeble and false at best. Only Christ can bring true, full, and lasting unity. If the church wants to be a picture of visible unity, it will be by faith in Christ as we grow in Him according to the truth of the Bible (Ephesians4:11-13). Perfected unity won’t happen until we are glorified, but in the meantime, let us seek Biblical unity by faith in Christ by pursuing a growing understanding of the Bible and by humbly yielding to the Spirit within us as He guides us into all truth.

http://www.relevantbibleteaching.com/site/cpage.asp?cpage_id=140011...

Permalink Reply by Tammy on June 7, 2016 at 12:53pm

Tolerance stops pursuing truth - Love this

Permalink Reply by Seek on June 8, 2016 at 3:55am

I can't decide if he's meaning diversity in the Gospel or unity in understanding minor matters like holidays, drinking, dancing, 10% tithing or giving according to ones means, old church traditions or for all times. I keep thinking in places it sounds like he's referring to unity in everything, even in these matters. But his use of the word diversity sounds like acceptance of homosexuals, transgender and the like in the church. Is he meaning diversity though in the plainly spoken law of God and words of Christ or minor issues such as these? If he is including those minor issues, which the majority came from Paul, then he's recognizing Paul's contributions.

This would then include two passages...

"As I urged you when I went into Macedonia -- remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine, nor give heed to fables and endless genealogies, which cause disputes rather than godly edification which is in faith" (I Timothy 1:3-4).

"But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless" (Titus 3:9).

Most of the Denominational differences are over these useless minor issues that just cause strife and do nothing to spread the Gospel of Jesus Christ.

Permalink Reply by thewatchman on June 8, 2016 at 7:50pm

Hey Seek, 

I can't decide what you're asking?  I thought the article was pretty tight...but I'm not the author of it, so I am reluctant to explain their personal interpretration to it, although I didn't see it needed one.  I found it to be pretty explicit in the interpretation.  

I'm sorry I couldn't help more. :(

Permalink Reply by Seek on June 10, 2016 at 10:55am

Statements like "This can only happen, not if we learn to just accept different traditions as all valid and equal versions, but if we pursue the truth according to the infallible Word of God." leave question as to whether he's meaning understanding of the Scripture as far as the Gospel and Godly behavior or of everything stated, even small matters that Jesus didn't specifically teach or that have no bearing on the Gospel. If you find the interpretation explicit, then would you share how you interpret it regarding these two possibilities? Because that's what I'm looking for. Do we believe what Christ taught us about how to live or do we believe we have the only true denominational beliefs? After my study mentioned originally, it was personally clear to be the first. I'm wondering if most people feel this way. If that's the case, then why is there so much disunity?

I'm personally not sure of which the person you quoted means, but I believe that regardless of what he's meaning, the passages from 1 Timothy and Titus address the minor inconsequential matters. It tells me that unity in these matters is unimportant as they're useless and only cause dispute, that we shouldn't even pay any attention to the strivings about the law. But these areas are exactly the areas that cause the different denominational disputes. The Gospel of Christ and His example and words should be the same belief of all Christians, and for the most seem to be, though I don't know what all denominations believe.

But the small matters of dress, hairstyles, holidays, which gifts we should still exhibit or not, drinking, lifting hands, loud or quiet praise, etc. should have no bearing on unity. If these matters weren't preached and each person decided for themselves, in faith, how they interpret them, then we really wouldn't have all the denominations. Maybe if every church was non-denominational we'd be more unified.

The two main denominations I personally know (Baptist and Pentecostal) split mainly on areas such as women teaching, wine, how often communion is taken, speaking in tongues and the like. I agree with some of both. My own church tries to persuade you to shout and jump around and get slain in the spirit (I don't need to point out which denomination LOL). Yet I feel it's a personal matter. Both are addressed in Scripture. Some danced, some shouted, some lifted hands, some looked up toward heaven, some bowed their face to the ground, some shut themselves in their room and prayed in private... worship should be in spirit and truth. So worshipping in a manner one says we should worship isn't either. How one worships God should come from the heart and their love of Him and His laws, not from being taught a correct manner.

I see unity as everyone being able to come together on the Gospel and no longer dividing or arguing over these kind of issues, not that everyone reach agreement on all these matters, but that we change our focus to the weightier matters of the Gospel and what Christ taught us. Seems we'd attract more to believe when they saw all Christians working in unity.

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