Unity in the church

Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 20, 2016 at 11:44pm

Yes ma'am. That does clear some things up for me. I'm sure I've also missed some comments along the way as I haven't been online as you know. I've just commented on the posts that I've read thus far. I'll catch up on them tomorrow.

I totally understand your view as far as when it comes to abuse. NO ONE should ever be abused. You must have mentioned abuse somewhere else that I've yet to read because ribbon said something about some ladies being abused that you know. There is a difference in being abused using the Name of God & being submissive in the Name of God. These are 2 totally different realms & different approaches to these situations. 

Hope your body heals quickly. Mercy knows it takes longer every day as age creeps up on us.

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 21, 2016 at 2:46am

I guess it is two separate conversations.... I didn't really see it as that before.

"There is a difference in being abused using the Name of God & being submissive in the Name of God."

In come cases it seems like the line is being blurred which can make it seem like the same conversation.

I feel like I should also mention that the two women I mentioned above...  they and their husbands do not attend my church.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 12:18am

I'd like to answer that one statement too in regards to the hierarchy. Who is over the unmarried woman? Husband, no. God most definitely. The pastor, sure. The elders yes.

We're all under another's authority. But let's add to that what Christ taught us. As Lord and Savior, He stooped to serve and wash feet. He taught that we're to all serve one another.

If someone has experience in a matter moreso than another, I would think the best service to their brothers and sisters would be to have the one with the greater knowledge in a subject be the one to teach them. As he is under God and using the wisdom God gave him, he us placing a woman over a class that both male and female "choose" to attend. He may also choose to be taught something by a woman with greater knowledge in a matter.

Hierarchy sets an order but do we take it so strictly literal that we miss some significance?

John 13
16 Very truly I tell you, no servant is greater than his master, nor is a messenger greater than the one who sent him.

We're all under someone but never so far above another as to not be willing to become the servant when need be. 

This could also point out why husbands had the told to love their wives. During those times they were treated as property. They had authority over the wife even to the point of being given the right to hand her divorce papers and run her off, while wives weren't given the same opportunity. 

Submission has become an extremely misunderstood concept. It appears that even then this was an issue. 

God created woman as a helpmate. Some like to interpret that as doormat. Some women also see submission the wrong way and think how dare they tell me what to do. When submission is simply deferring to another's decisions.  

It's the wife who sees a better way of handling the budget and her husband sincerely believing his method is better. She defers to his judgement as the man of the house. It's not the husband laying out orders and kicking her to the curb if she steps out of line. It's the teamwork of the two working together and when there is disagreement, she is to defer to his judgement as he refers to God's. But he also should defer to her judgement when he knows she's right. Otherwise he becomes a fool and blows the budget rather than be thought of as less than a man. 

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 23, 2016 at 6:32am

Good Word Seek,

Here are a couple scriptures to support what I think you are saying:

Philippians 2:5-8

⁵ Have this attitude ^[e]in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, ⁶ who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be ^[f]grasped, ⁷ but ^[g]emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men. ⁸ Being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death ^[h]on a cross.

Matthew 20:25-28

²⁵ But Jesus called them to Himself and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their great men exercise authority over them. ²⁶ It is not this way among you, but whoever wishes to become great among you shall be your servant, ²⁷ and whoever wishes to be first among you shall be your slave; ²⁸ just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give His ^[n]life a ransom for many.”

Galatians 5:13-15

¹³ For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. ¹⁴ For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “You shall love your neighbor as yourself.” ¹⁵ But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another.

Luke 22:24-27

²⁴ And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest. ²⁵ And He said to them, “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’ ²⁶ But it is not this way with you, but the one who is the greatest among you must become like the youngest, and the leader like the servant. ²⁷ For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

1 Peeter 5

Therefore, I exhort the elders among you, as your fellow elder and witness of the sufferings of Christ, and a partaker also of the glory that is to be revealed, ² shepherd the flock of God among you, exercising oversight not under compulsion, but voluntarily, according to the will of God; and not for sordid gain, but with eagerness; ³ nor yet as lording it over ^[a]those allotted to your charge, but ^[b]proving to be examples to the flock. ⁴ And when the Chief Shepherd appears, you will receive the unfading ^[c]crown of glory. ⁵ You younger men, likewise, be subject to your elders; and all of you, clothe yourselves with humility toward one another, for God is opposed to the proud, but gives grace to the humble.

Setting healthy boundaries....putting own family first

1 Tim 3

It is a trustworthy statement: if any man aspires to the office of ^[a]overseer, it is a fine work he desires to do. ^2 [b]An overseer, then, must be above reproach, the husband of one wife, temperate, prudent, respectable, hospitable, able to teach, ³ not addicted to wine ^[c]or pugnacious, but gentle, peaceable, free from the love of money. ⁴ He must be one who manages his own household well, keeping his children under control with all dignity ⁵ (but if a man does not know how to manage his own household, how will he take care of the church of God?), ⁶ and not a new convert, so that he will not become conceited and fall into the condemnation ^[d]incurred by the devil. ⁷ And he must have a good reputation with those outside the church, so that he will not fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 5:09pm

Good additions. And yes, you understand what I'm saying.

Words have meaning. Sounds like a pun but really...

Some see women keep silent in the church and they see a definition of not saying anything. But that isn't the context of how it was used in other Scriptures.

The same with authority. Decide what is meant by authority. No plausible definition of the word refers to a woman doing something a man has asked or permitted her to do in their personal relationship.

And submission. The crux of it all. “So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.”

If all are the image of God, would He He treat one image lesser than the other? "For God does not show favoritism."

He presents an order and uses the word submission. Then He sends Jesus to show that no one is above another. Submission wasn't Christ doing everything the disciples said, but it was His being willing to serve them even He was over them. Women being submissive is to serve as a helpmate. It isn't to blindly obey. A helpmate and a husband who loves his wife, both in love with God and accepting Christ, make the best team and their cord is not easily broken.

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 20, 2016 at 6:00pm

Carla,

I understand the position you are taking, but think you are misusing a couple of terms together. A teaching can be literal and cultural. The first question is to determine whether the teaching is literal (face value) or symbolic (allegoric). Then we can seek to determine if the teaching is an eternal truth or a temporal truth. If eternal it cannot be determined by culture. If temporal it may or may not be driven by culture. Therefore, if it is temporal, and not eternal, we have to determine what is the qualifier, or key, to it being temporal. In so doing we can determine how long it is, or was, to be a directive and what allowed for the change.

Regarding gold, pearls, etc ... we cannot look at its acceptability today as the determining factor as to whether it is actually acceptable today (I know you do not mean that, but that is basically what you said in your statement). I am not inserting here whether it is or is not allowed, but stating only that the determining factor has to come from whether the statement as given by Paul was literal or allegoric and whether it is eternal or temporal. If temporal then what is the key as to whether it is applicable for today?

Hope that makes sense.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 22, 2016 at 10:29pm

I hope it does too so she can explain it to me. LOL

I'm just finally getting through my emails and reading the responses. Since I have about 30 to 40 emails, my brain is already fried, so can you give me the 6th grade translation?

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 23, 2016 at 8:08am

LOL Seek!  Always the joker. :-) 

"A teaching can be literal and cultural. The first question is to determine whether the teaching is literal (face value) or symbolic (allegoric). Then we can seek to determine if the teaching is an eternal truth or a temporal truth. If eternal it cannot be determined by culture. If temporal it may or may not be driven by culture. Therefore, if it is temporal, and not eternal, we have to determine what is the qualifier, or key, to it being temporal. In so doing we can determine how long it is, or was, to be a directive and what allowed for the change."

"I am not inserting here whether it is or is not allowed, but stating only that the determining factor has to come from whether the statement as given by Paul was literal or allegoric and whether it is eternal or temporal"

If temporal then what is the key as to whether it is applicable for today?"

Basically I take this to mean that if the instructions for women to teach men, wear pearls/gold are eternal, what makes them eternal.  But if the instructions for women to teach men are temporary, what makes them temporary.

If the instructions were temporary then, are they still applicable today, and how do we know? 

:-)

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 23, 2016 at 3:59pm

Basically yes. ... :-) 

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 5:15pm

OK and I hear Jeopardy music while I patiently wait for the answers. LOL

Carla, God gave us emotions and humor. Humor can often lift one up or diffuse an argument or just be plain old silly just because. I love humor. But I refuse to wear the pointed hat and curly toed shoes with bells.

If you think I'm a joker, I really should introduce you to my brother. LOL

Permalink Reply by Leonard T on May 23, 2016 at 6:55pm

OK, I'll play.

1) You never build a Bible doctrine on one passage. There may be a teaching, or principles found there, but they are not what is commonly though of as doctrine (i,e. the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of sanctification, etc).

2)If a doctrine is established it is considered eternal unless there is evidence that it is temporal, and possibly cultural. One does not look for the eternal clause, but rather the temporal clause.

3) Each Scripture passage has only one true interpretation, and that is always and only what God truly meant. We must be diligent at seeking it out and not be satisfied with the common or cultural interpretation.

I'll stop there for now.

Lord Bless,

LT

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 24, 2016 at 4:26am

Uhhhhh ok. See post #1. LOL I just covered this in another response to you somewhere in here.

After you read it, add this to my response.

Yes each has only one true interpretation and only God knows it fully. So if your studies, not common or cultural interpretation, fully persuade you of what is meant then to you it is truth.

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