Replies to This Discussion

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 19, 2016 at 8:11am

I'm not offended David.   Men are not more emotional than women...as we have already agreed upon... both men and women have equal capabilities to being what we call 'emotional'.

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 16, 2016 at 2:19pm

I did the same. I was working on a reply but was half asleep & hit enter & wasn't even close to being finished with it. 

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 2:08pm

You need a little help here David? lol

2 Timothy 3:6

For among them are those who enter into households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

1 Peter 3:7

You husbands in the same way, live with your wives in an understanding way, as with someone weaker, since she is a woman; and show her honor as a fellow heir of the grace of life, so that your prayers will not be hindered. 

Isaiah 19:16

In that day the Egyptians will become like women, and they will tremble and be in dread because of the waving of the hand of the LORD of hosts, which He is going to wave over them.

Nahum 3:13

Behold, your people are women in your midst! The gates of your land are opened wide to your enemies; Fire consumes your gate bars.

Jeremiah 50:37

"A sword against their horses and against their chariots And against all the foreigners who are in the midst of her, And they will become women! A sword against her treasures, and they will be plundered!

Jeremiah 51:30

The mighty men of Babylon have ceased fighting, They stay in the strongholds; Their strength is exhausted, They are becoming like women; Their dwelling places are set on fire, The bars of her gates are broken.

I know this doesn't put the greatest light on the sex that I myself am however, I don't make no bones about it, I'm the weaker sex. I'm good with that. I have no issue with a man taking care of me. I actually LOVE IT. Let him take the fall for the bad decisions & the praise for the great ones. He gets the praise which passes the praise onto the Father because I'm in obedience to His will of 'command'. I don't mind playing my role in the larger scheme of things. There is power in leading from the back. 

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 21, 2016 at 8:00pm

Tammy,

There are many examples of women in the bible who are incredibly strong and were able to make difficult decisions in the face of incredible cultural challenges.  Abigail, Ruth, Mary (Jesus' Mother), Puah and Shiphrah,

..... to name only a few.   I don't have time to go into a lengthy response on this right now.  But these women displayed incredible courage and strength, and we would do well to honor that. 

Additionally, There are many men in scripture who displayed weakness.

David (adultery and murder).  Peter (denied Christ), Jonah (ran from God), Moses stuttered, Gideon lived in fear, Samson had long hair and was a womanizer. 

My point is, all of us are weak.  Men and Women.  Women and Men.

"God created man in His own image, in the image of God He created him; male and female He created them."  Genesis 1:27

But gratefully this is true:

2 Corinthians 12:9New American Standard Bible (NASB)

⁹ And He has said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for power is perfected in weakness.” Most gladly, therefore, I will rather boast ^[a]about my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may dwell in me.

The women and men who overcame their weaknesses in the bible did not do it in their own strength. (Philippians 4:13)

I think that women need to cheer on other women.  I want them to be known that they are not weak, but In Christ they are capable of great things. 

Permalink Reply by Tammy on May 21, 2016 at 9:25pm

Tell you what Carla, when you can take the time to really dig in, I'm game. I'm backing off until then. I didn't say anything about these women. I just posted Scripture. Never said these other women didn't display Godly character. I think in one reply, I named many Godly women. I'm just giving Scripture as to how women are portrayed in Scripture & why the roles are as God desires them to be. I didn't write it, I'm just quoting.

I must admit that I'm baffled at why any female would battle so hard to attempt to find any loophole around the roles that have been designed for her. We have a hard job. No man on this planet can do the role that is set before a woman. They can try all day long. We're some tough cookies. Yep, I said it, we're tough. We care for the sick, mourn with the mourners, cry with the helpless, give strength to the weak, stand strong behind the man of God even when he's wrong, & the list goes on. But, we also have a make-up that is given to us by our Creator & the role of being a man isn't our job. Why would you even CARE to want so much responsibility & authority? This has always been beyond my understanding. 

PS - I'm always there to cheer along a fellow sister in the Lord. My cheer for you - You're an incredible writer & have an awesome way of expressing yourself. You're a great mother - always there for those kids. You're a beautiful wife - standing strong behind your man praying over him daily. 

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 3:02pm

Uhhhhh why do you need to help David? He's not the weaker vessel is he? BWAHAHAHA

Permalink Reply by Seek on May 23, 2016 at 3:51pm

I must admit that I'm baffled at why any female would battle so hard to attempt to find any loophole around the roles that have been designed for her. 

Well one of the reasons is that some women have been called to ministry (for whatever reason). But when we adamantly say God opposes this, we're saying that woman is a false prophet, distorting God's Word, ignoring His commands and is blatantly in the wrong. Even when one saying it has no clue what God calls another to do. But instead they take such pride in holding onto some belief that they have it so right that they cannot possibly believe the person may have actually been called so maybe they just don't really know fully. 

As Jesus told His disciples that whoever was not against them was for them, unless a woman is teaching something other than the Gospel of Jesus Christ, I'm baffled as to why anyone would want them shut down. 

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 24, 2016 at 4:08pm

Tammy,

"Tell you what Carla, when you can take the time to really dig in, I'm game. I'm backing off until then"

 As I said earlier, my problem with men having authority over women "teaching" is the abuse that often accompanies this teaching. 

I'm not convinced that women should not Pastor a church as I believe the teaching was possibly a temporary teaching applicable to the culture towards women at that time.

I don't usually comment on things unless I have studied it.

We can agree to disagree on this topic.  There isn't one of us that has all the answers.  I am convinced we agree on the essentials.

Blessings, Carla

Permalink Reply by David Velasquez on May 14, 2016 at 7:28pm

Carla,

The point is that brother's Bruxy's point/opinion about the topic does not hold up under scrutiny. Amanda pointed out discrepancias as so did I about his interpretation. Not saying that he is intentionally trying to tickle peoples ears, cause I do not know the brother, but he in my opinion is doing what many are doing today, trying to scripturally back up/reconcile a topic that has been a hot one for a while in the church, but I do not think he has scripture to back up his teachings. 

As far as women being more emotional creatures than men, if they were, there would be ABSOLUTELY NOTHING WRONG with that, not one bit. If you were to tell me that men are more emotional than women, I would not think twice about it, nor be ofended, much less have the opinions you have about it, specially if it was true. 

I had never before researched whether there are psychological studies, formal ones, that showed a man or a woman to be more emotional, but I did take some time to study the topic, since your took offense to my statement. What I found is that there are a lot of opinions out there about the topic, but I did not give the opinions any weight, formal studies is what I was after, such as the one found in the link I placed below,and such studies do confirm that women tend to be more emotional than men, through out the world. 

At the most basic levels it may be that women are encouraged to show their emotions and men are told that not to, but there is more to it than that. 

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/sexual-personalities/201504/ar...

There are no absolutes when it comes to the topic because you have to factor in many variables into the equation, but when formal scientific, using the scientific method, studies are conducted women do come out being more emotional. 

Now - what in the world whats' I trying to get a cross, that my friend is the question? I still don't know how to word it, but I will share what I was thinking when I wrote that in a state of dossing in and out of sleep.

I was thinking how women have been more easily deceived throughout history, it too has to do with the roles women play in society in contrast to the roles of men, but I was thinking how women are the victims of men in the department of love in a much greater degree than men. How there is something about women that makes them moer easy to deceived and it has nothing to do with what the brother was talking about in the video.

I was thinking how women tend to be more warm, trusting, hopeful and willing to believe than guys and this I was thinking simply because of the 6000 years of data that we have in the subject. I ended up calling that emotional, but that is not the word for it. I will think about it some more.

Blessings sis. :)

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 16, 2016 at 6:39am

David,  I disagree with you. 

In regards to what a weaker vessel means, this article offers some good insight.

Beginning of Article

"Recently my husband and I attended an outdoor concert for a band we both like. At the beginning of the first set a fight broke out behind us between a woman and a man. Both appeared to have lost track of their beverage count, and the woman was hitting and pushing the man, yelling that he was a child and an idiot. The man gently tried to calm her down, but after smacking him on the chest a few more times she stumbled toward the exit with him trailing behind. There was awkward laughter in the surrounding seats, and then everyone started listening to the music again.

Except me. I started thinking about weaker vessels.

In the study of First Peter I taught this spring, we covered those tricky passages on submission in Chapters 2 and 3, finally arriving at Peter’s words to husbands in 1 Peter 3:7:

Likewise, husbands, live with your wives in an understanding way, showing honor to the woman as the weaker vessel, since they are heirs with you of the grace of life, so that your prayers may not be hindered.

Peter’s comments to husbands are a subset of a discussion about how to live among unbelievers in a God-honoring way, urging submission to others as an expression of submission to God.  Having just addressed how a believing wife ought to live with an unbelieving husband, Peter addresses believing husbands about how to live with an unbelieving wife, describing her as the “weaker vessel”.  In the study homework I asked the women what Peter meant by “weaker vessel” – was he saying that women were morally weaker? Intellectually weaker? Emotionally weaker? Physically weaker? Their responses were telling: almost everyone correctly checked “physically weaker”, but about half of the group checked “emotionally weaker” as well.

I was bothered by this. It is probably fair to say that, generally speaking, women have easier access to their emotions than men do. But what message, implied or stated, had these women absorbed that led them to view this as weakness? Emotions are not a sign of weakness – emotions unchecked are. And anyone who has seen men hurl remote controls at sports coverage can verify that unchecked emotions are a problem for both genders. Both men and women can sin by letting emotions run wild, or by locking emotions away.  “Weaker vessel” must mean something else.

Help from History

This is where historical context becomes our friend.  At the time Peter writes, Roman law had begun to soften towards women. During the first century A.D., laws began to be passed giving women rights of property ownership and protection from domestic abuse, but for hundreds of years before this, the concept of the pater familas had reigned in the lawbooks and in the home.

SEE ALSO: Be Subject to One Another

The pater familias, or “family father” held sway in the home on all decisions regarding property and family. All property remained legally his until his death – should he live to be eighty, none of his adult sons could hold property. Moreover, he held the power of life and death (vitae necisque potesta) over every member of his family. Infants deemed too expensive to be raised could be left on the temple steps at his order, either to die from exposure or to be taken and raised as slaves.  Adult children could be executed by fathers who believed them to be rebellious or deceitful. And most relevant to our discussion, wives whose husbands held the legal power to put them to death could hope for little protection from domestic violence.

So, the Rome to which Peter writes, much like the American South in the eighty years following Abolition, is a Rome in which new laws are on the books but practices remain much the same. Peter instructs wives on how to live carefully with an unbelieving husband who could cause them (or their children) physical harm for having converted to a new religion, and then he admonishes husbands of unbelieving wives not to deal harshly with them, even though the culture would allow it.

Fragile or Useful?

So the intent of “show honor to the woman as the weaker vessel” would not seem to be "tiptoe around your wife's emotions" as my study members had speculated. Nor would it seem to be “treat your wife like fine china”, as is often taught. Though it is well-intentioned, I wish we would stop teaching that. Fine china is fragile, rarely used, rarely useful, and largely decorative. I don’t believe that is the picture Scripture paints of godly women, here or Proverbs 31:17-25.  Even Peter’s use of the word “vessel” should point out that 2 Timothy 2:20-21 is inherent in defining not just womanhood but personhood. Peter uses the term “weaker vessel” to point to the general truth that women are comparatively physically weaker than men. Take, for example, the fight I witnessed at the concert: Because she was hitting him we had an awkward moment. If he had been hitting her we would have called security. Peter is reminding husbands of this relationship. He is warning them not to use physical strength to intimidate or harm their wives.

SEE ALSO: Husbands, Love Your Wives More Than Seminary

Peter in no way diminishes the worth or capability of wives by comparing their physical strength to that of their husbands with a simple word picture. He is, in fact, guarding them from being treated contemptibly. Wives, your emotions are not a sign of weakness – they are a gift from the Lord and can be a great strength. You and your husband share equal potential for strength or weakness in all things moral, intellectual and emotional - question any teaching that states or implies otherwise. Husbands and wives, may we treat each other at all times as 2 Timothy 2:20-21, as Romans 9:22-24, as co-heirs of grace ordained for high and holy service to our Lord."

end of article------------

I would absolutely agree that a weaker vessel has to do with 'physical' attributes.  But it ends there.  We are concerned when men beat and abuse women and children, and we do call in security and police, and consequences are met because women are physically weaker than men, and unfortunately some men take advantage of that.  The men who do this are not fit to teach.

Additionally, the highly respected male teaching Pastor of my church disagrees with you.

While your intentions may be good,  we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Permalink Reply by Carla on May 16, 2016 at 8:03am

A good and timely word Ribbon.  Amen.

For the sake of others who may be reading this, but prefer a newer English... here's the NLT version:

Leaders in the Church

3 This is a trustworthy saying: “If someone aspires to be a church leader,^[a] he desires an honorable position.” ² So a church leader must be a man whose life is above reproach. He must be faithful to his wife.^[b] He must exercise self-control, live wisely, and have a good reputation. He must enjoy having guests in his home, and he must be able to teach. ³ He must not be a heavy drinker^[c] or be violent. He must be gentle, not quarrelsome, and not love money. ⁴ He must manage his own family well, having children who respect and obey him. ⁵ For if a man cannot manage his own household, how can he take care of God’s church?

⁶ A church leader must not be a new believer, because he might become proud, and the devil would cause him to fall.^{[d] 7} Also, people outside the church must speak well of him so that he will not be disgraced and fall into the devil’s trap.

⁸ In the same way, deacons must be well respected and have integrity. They must not be heavy drinkers or dishonest with money. ⁹ They must be committed to the mystery of the faith now revealed and must live with a clear conscience. ¹⁰ Before they are appointed as deacons, let them be closely examined. If they pass the test, then let them serve as deacons.

¹¹ In the same way, their wives^[e] must be respected and must not slander others. They must exercise self-control and be faithful in everything they do.

¹² A deacon must be faithful to his wife, and he must manage his children and household well. ¹³ Those who do well as deacons will be rewarded with respect from others and will have increased confidence in their faith in Christ Jesus.

Permalink Reply by ribbon on May 16, 2016 at 8:04am

You saying > The men who do this are not fit to teach. <---- That reminded me of the verses below.

1 Timothy 3:1-7King James Version (KJV)

3 This is a true saying, if a man desire the office of a bishop, he desireth a good work.

² A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach;

³ Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;

⁴ One that ruleth well his own house, having his children in subjection with all gravity;

⁵ (For if a man know not how to rule his own house, how shall he take care of the church of God?)

⁶ Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

⁷ Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

King James Version (KJV)

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